Shooting Your Own Units

[Snazzy]

Is there anything specifically saying that you can't target your own units in the Shooting Phase?  I got into an argument about this with an opponent when i wanted to shoot my Incubi.  It served two purposes: denying them the last few models needed to claim Big Game Hunters and to heal my Visarch.  I didn't see anything in the BRB, but the rules are all over the place these days.

[GrinNfool]

The choosing targets section of the BRB only gives directions for how to target enemy units, which means you are making inferences on directions on how to target your own units, because the game gives no details on how to do so.  You are making an educated guess at how to do something the game doesn't tell you how to do, so it would be illegal IMO. 

 

If your argument boils down to the game doesn't explicitly tell me I can't so I can, then 40k as a whole ceases to function, there are many many things the game doesn't explicitly state you can't do.  Like no where in the rule book does it say I can't destroy one of your units by doing a jumping jack, yet no one would accept that either for obvious reasons.  The example is extreme but its just to show there are many things the game does not account for so the line of reasoning if it doesn't say I cant I can just doesn't work for 40k.  The game's rules rely on giving you permission to do something, if the game doesn't say you can do it then its assumed you can't.

[Grotsmasha]

Previous editions of the Rules used to state that you cannot target you're own units, I guess it's a case of it being "the rule is so well known that GW forgot to make a point of spelling it out".

 

FWIW, my group used to have a home rule exclusively for shooting into an Assault.

[McElMcNinja]

Well the rules state:

2. Choose Targets

Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model. If unsure, stoop down and get a look from behind the shooting model to see if any part of the target is visible. For the purposes of determining visibility, a model can see through other models in its own unit.

 

According to this you could shoot your own unit even while being further away then the range on the weapons profile and not have line of sight to the unit.

 

I believe gang busters awards points for wounds inflicted on the unit regardless of source, so that may not prevented your opponent from scoring those.

 

Very interesting topic.

Edited February 20, 2020 by McElMcNinja

[Lucerne]

So teamkilling is technically legal?

[GrinNfool]

Well the rules state:

2. Choose Targets

Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model. If unsure, stoop down and get a look from behind the shooting model to see if any part of the target is visible. For the purposes of determining visibility, a model can see through other models in its own unit.

 

According to this you could shoot your own unit even while being further away then the range on the weapons profile and not have line of sight to the unit.

 

I believe gang busters awards points for wounds inflicted on the unit regardless of source, so that may not prevented your opponent from scoring those.

 

Very interesting topic.

As you quoted the rule provides instructions for how to target ENEMY units... not friendly, there is nothing giving you permission to target friendly units, or even instructions for how to target friendly units, you are therefore making assumptions, which aren't supported by the game rules.  Nothing quoted says you can or how to target your own unit.  You are creating your own rules, which would be house rules, not game rules.

[McElMcNinja]

I would say they are more of restrictions than instructions.

[Panzer]

GW uses a permissive ruleset. If it doesn't say you can do something, then you can't. Since the rules only tell you how to shoot at enemy units, you can only shoot at enemy units.

[McElMcNinja]

Of course you can't shoot your own units under normal circumstances. I've done it once just to remove a couple models from combat so I could shoot at enemy models.

[Panzer]

What?

[Spinsanity]

Of course you can't shoot your own units under normal circumstances. I've done it once just to remove a couple models from combat so I could shoot at enemy models.

How does that make sense? You can’t but you did once anyway?

[McElMcNinja]

The Purge have stratagem that allows them to shoot into combat except hit rolls of 1 hit friendly units. He had tri-pointed me, pinning me in combat. So when I shot I auto-hit with my leviathans flamers wounding him, which allowed me to re-roll all my hits from his butcher cannons. I had rolled all 2+ to hit, so I chose to re-roll them all getting 2 1's. I was able to kill off 2 of my Cultists getting me out of combat and freeing up my other units to shoot at him.

[Kallas]

The Purge have stratagem that allows them to shoot into combat except hit rolls of 1 hit friendly units. He had tri-pointed me, pinning me in combat. So when I shot I auto-hit with my leviathans flamers wounding him, which allowed me to re-roll all my hits from his butcher cannons. I had rolled all 2+ to hit, so I chose to re-roll them all getting 2 1's. I was able to kill off 2 of my Cultists getting me out of combat and freeing up my other units to shoot at him.

 

That's a specific rule that allows that to happen. Normally that is not allowed; which is why people were expressing confusion.

 

Choosing to target your own unit in combat is, simply, not allowed - even the Purge stratagem doesn't allow that, it lets you shoot the enemy unit and might impact your unit on certain rolls.

[McElMcNinja]

Correct, I didn't target my unit, I was just able to shoot them due to the effects of the stratagem and being able to re-roll hit rolls.

[Acebaur]

GW uses a permissive ruleset. If it doesn't say you can do something, then you can't. Since the rules only tell you how to shoot at enemy units, you can only shoot at enemy units.

 

All rulesets are permissive.

 

 

OP If the rules don't describe how to do something, then you can't do it. There are no rules for shooting your own units therefore you cannot do it. 

[Snazzy]

Previous editions of the Rules used to state that you cannot target you're own units, I guess it's a case of it being "the rule is so well known that GW forgot to make a point of spelling it out".

 

 

This was the basis of my thinking.  GW thought it was obvious enough to mention in previous editions.  Maybe it was because of blast templates?  

[War Angel]

 

 

 

Previous editions of the Rules used to state that you cannot target you're own units, I guess it's a case of it being "the rule is so well known that GW forgot to make a point of spelling it out".

 

This was the basis of my thinking. GW thought it was obvious enough to mention in previous editions. Maybe it was because of blast templates?

GW felt the need to spell out everything in the past. Now, to keep the number of rules limited, they have switched how they do things.

[Captain Coolpants]

If you would kill your own units. Everyone would just be plinking off the remaining wounds of vehicles and units to just deny soooo many points like first blood, big game hunter or Allll the 'kill so many/specific units type scorecards.

 

Which of course never happens, because it cannot. Your own units are not enemy units. And you can only TARGET enemy units.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Khornate individual]

Well the rules state:

2. Choose Targets

Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model. If unsure, stoop down and get a look from behind the shooting model to see if any part of the target is visible. For the purposes of determining visibility, a model can see through other models in its own unit.

 

According to this you could shoot your own unit even while being further away then the range on the weapons profile and not have line of sight to the unit.

 

I believe gang busters awards points for wounds inflicted on the unit regardless of source, so that may not prevented your opponent from scoring those.

 

Very interesting topic.

So what your saying is, if you have a unit full of bolt pistols on one side of the table and 48" away behind a mountain you have another friendly unit...you can shoot them?  You can shoot them from 48" away, behind a mountain, WITH bolt pistols just because the rules don't specifically say?!? ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!???

Just when I think I've heard it all in the world of 40k rule bending, there's something like this

[McElMcNinja]

The OP wanted to shoot his own units because the rules didn't say he couldn't, using that logic I took it a step further for him.

[Dam13n]

In future, do not do so. The OR is not here to mislead people or go down tangents. It exists to help people understand the rules as they are, not what they might be, or can be twisted into.

Given the fact that 40k is a permissive ruleset, and that statement is enough to answer the OPs question, I see no reason for this topic to continue.

As such, it is now locked.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Dam13n