Dumb to buy non-Primaris?

[Kallas]

I agree that there probably aren't going to be new non-Primaris kits going forward, but that's a different thing from non-Primaris getting phased out. Plenty of armies have kits that have been in production without updates for decades. Yet a fair number of people seem to believe that one implies the other, which again leaves me wondering if I'm missing something that connects them.

 

There will be plenty of new Primaris kits as they come up with more ideas. There won't be any new non-Primaris kits. As non-Primaris kits get worn out and/or start selling less, they'll get dropped (it's simple business sense).

 

They haven't really started phasing anything major out yet, but they will, over time, as they expand Primaris options. Eventually Primaris options will encroach into non-Primaris areas (not entirely, because they seem to really be minimising customisability of Primaris kits, so there won't be any Plasma in Intercessor squads, for example) and that'll be when they pull those units.

 

Basically, they're slow burning it, but they're doing it.

[Snazzy]

I'll just say that, given the poor handling of the Primaris integration from a fluff perspective, anything is possible.

[Hymnblade]

 

As non-Primaris kits get worn out and/or start selling less, they'll get dropped (it's simple business sense).

 

They haven't really started phasing anything major out yet, but they will, over time, as they expand Primaris options.

I don't see how that makes business sense, even ignoring any potential backlash from the playerbase. Moreover, it isn't how they've handled other armies with kits that are both older and less popular than the entire SM line. Even once models go out of production, that still doesn't mean things automatically go to Legends. Guard regiments still have full rules support.

 

It's conceivable that these things could get phased out; I'm not saying they definitely won't. But I've seen quite a few people talk like it's inevitable and automatic that the entire non-Primaris line will get phased out, and I don't see much evidence for that. The introduction of Legends phased out only a handful of models that were long since OOP (and a handful more that had never had an official model at all), and nothing else, despite being multiple years and two full codex releases past the introduction of Primaris. That seems like pretty shaky grounds to make such a strong prediction on. That's why I'm asking if I am missing something.

[Kallas]

It's conceivable that these things could get phased out; I'm not saying they definitely won't. But I've seen quite a few people talk like it's inevitable and automatic that the entire non-Primaris line will get phased out, and I don't see much evidence for that. 

 

It pretty much is inevitable. Why would they create two incompatible forces under the same umbrella? This isn't like Craftworlds and Drukhari, who are two distinct forces that can ally; Primaris and non-Primaris are both the same force, but non/Primaris are incompatible (best shown by things like transportation not being cross compatible).

 

Yes, it hasn't all happened already, but they've already introduced the vehicle with which they're going to do it (Legends).

[Snazzy]

The easy answer would be to double dip on their largest fan base.

[War Angel]

I'll just say that, given the poor handling of the Primaris integration from a fluff perspective, anything is possible.

That would be your opinion

[Captain Idaho]

I imagine sales for Classic Marines have dropped over the past few years.

[No Foes Remain]

I imagine sales for Classic Marines have dropped over the past few years.

Thats entirely likely because people who collcet Marines would have armies of the Classic Marines and are expading their forces with Primaris, so Primaris sales are going to be leaps and bounds ahead of Classic Marines anyway so its not really a fair comparison.

 

Any plastic old marines kit for Heresy is a plastic oldmarine kit for 40k

Thats what I plan on doing if the worst should happen. 'Oh look my chapters decided to use MK3 because its more tougher and viable to make for the Firstborn and the veterans get MK4'. Simple.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Horus Heresy is a different game reliant on resin miniatures for much of the range. It has little to no bearing on 40K.

 

Except they're not getting rid of the Heresy any time soon, and have many years of stuff planned for it. GW is still producing plastic Mk3 and Mk4 power armour kits, along with plastic Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, and the characters from the Calth set. GW has indicated that they intend to continue the Horus Heresy setting all the way up to at least the Scouring, and Mk7 power armour was developed during the Siege. Almost everything Firstborn is able to be used in the Heresy setting at the very least. The argument is that Firstborn are going to no longer be made at all, which is obviously not going to happen. 

 

Part of the way GW present themselves is that 40k is a "historic future setting". They encourage people to play games set during any of the 10,000 years between the Heresy and "now". I cannot ever see GW add to that "except for our most popular and best-selling race ever, we're only letting you play games set now, you can just watch everyone else have fun playing historic games."

[MegaVolt87]

Ideally we would see legends options returning with new sculpts in revised codexes in the future. I wouldn't mind seeing GW going back in time with campaign book(s) for Tyranic Wars, Badab etc. I think there would be enough interest to make it worthwhile. Would also give them some breathing room to further refine new content. PA feels a little rushed compared to Vigilus campaign IMO. For example, Tyranic wars, return of termi calgar, new sculpt maybe in custom tartoros plate instead of indomi plate, re-scaled tyranic war vets DW sized etc. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Hymnblade]

 

It's conceivable that these things could get phased out; I'm not saying they definitely won't. But I've seen quite a few people talk like it's inevitable and automatic that the entire non-Primaris line will get phased out, and I don't see much evidence for that. 

 

It pretty much is inevitable. Why would they create two incompatible forces under the same umbrella? This isn't like Craftworlds and Drukhari, who are two distinct forces that can ally; Primaris and non-Primaris are both the same force, but non/Primaris are incompatible (best shown by things like transportation not being cross compatible).

 

Yes, it hasn't all happened already, but they've already introduced the vehicle with which they're going to do it (Legends).

I don't follow the reasoning here. Primaris and Firstborn are substantially more compatible than Craftworlds and Drukhari. An Aeldari soup army has transport restrictions, as well as being required to split along detachment lines and unable to share faction traits and some buffs and stratagems; Marines have only the transport restriction. Heck, Marines have fewer compatibility issues than Drukhari alone. For Drukhari, everyone knows that splitting by Obsession is just how the army works, but for Marines, somehow it's evidence that non-Primaris are getting phased out?

 

Besides, if Impulsors and Repulsors could carry non-Primaris, they would be direct replacements for Rhinos and Land Raiders. The fact that they can't replace existing tanks somehow indicates that old tanks are getting replaced? Again, I don't follow the reasoning.

 

A handful of already-OOP Marine models went to legends, along with models for every other army. The fact that a Warboss in Mega Armor got phased out just means they don't want to maintain a datasheet for a model that doesn't exist, but the fact that a Chaplain On Bike got phased out somehow means that marines as a whole are getting phased out? I don't see it.

 

I'm not even saying that non-Primaris are definitely not going away. I can believe that they might, especially if we're talking 10+ years down the line when the game looks completely different, instead of 2-3 years when we're barely into the next iteration of the codex. But the evidence you're presenting seems way too weak to support the conclusion that they definitely are going away.

 

It's not very hard to come up with innocuous explanations for why they'd do this: they wanted a release that was more attractive than a fifth kind of Terminator squad, and that would give players a reason to buy new instead of secondhand. Primaris accomplishes both goals. I'm sure there are replacement effects, where players now buy Intercessors instead of Tactical Squads. But replacement effects are almost never one-for-one, which is why they offer four kinds of Terminators in the first place. A player who doesn't want regular Terminators may want Cataphractii, and a player who doesn't want Incursors may still want a tactical squad. If you remove tactical squads, that won't convince the player to buy Incursors; they may just not buy anything at all. So yes, the Primaris line has probably reduced sales for the rest of the line, but sales are still higher overall than they would be if Primaris were the only option.

[Dracos]

There is also the modelling aspect. There seems to be more than not, more hobbyist who are very particular about having both Firstborn and Primaris sitting side by side. Primaris models make the Firstborn look like buffed up Scions. Its amazing what a visualy effect a few millimeters can make, but there it is and B&C is rife with those who either hate the Firstborn scale of the others who hate the limited conversion options available to play/make out of Primaris models.

 

Modelling though, for 3 years (?) we've seen nothing that indicates continued support of growth for the Firstborn while Primaris grows and grows. Eventually the Firstborn molding processes are going to go out of date and a business decision seems to already be made where they are going with the company's Flagship Faction. Each model that goes OOP, be it GW or FW is another step closer to them entering the Legends pearly gates. 

 

imo

[Lord_Caerolion]

Given the continuing output of models for the Heresy, which will soon include Mk7 armour, that's going to be a long time coming.

[Spinsanity]

Given the continuing output of models for the Heresy, which will soon include Mk7 armour, that's going to be a long time coming.

How old is the plastic MkIV set, the Battle for Prospero box? Even though the siege did feature some MkVII in the lore doesnmt mean we will definitely see MkV, VI and/or VII kits ever being released for 30k. For all we know, the current kits might be all we’ll ever get in plastic...

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Current Mk VII Tactical Squad: September 2013

 

Mk IV and Tartaros from Betrayal at Calth: October 2015

 

Mk III and Cataphractii from Burning of Prospero: November  2016

Edited February 26, 2020 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Robbienw]

No, its not dumb to buy non-primaris.

 

Its nearly 3 years now since primaris were introduced, and the full range of classic marine models is still available and going nowhere.  Its clear they have no plans to just randomly dispose of them.

 

Added to that most of the base classic marine kits (with a few exceptions) are relatively new modern kits and really nice quality models, with a lot of life left in them.  As long as they continue to sell, they will be around for a long time until the molds wear out.  

 

When it gets to the point that the majority of kits are old and molds/stocks are running out (that's at least a decade away), then we will see what happens.  They could then do nothing with the classic marine designs when it gets to that point, but i really really doubt it.  GW always goes back to classic fan favourite designs from their past, and stuff like the mk6 and mk7 marines, rhinos, land raiders, etc are iconic and they wont just leave them alone in the future.  They are proven top sellers.

 

There are multiple options how they could be redone in the future when it come to this point.  Even if primaris become the only marine type in the present-era of 40k fluff, they could still keep classics in 40k for historical reasons.  Or there could be a 30k/whfb old world style historical pre-gathering storm-era game produced by forgeworld/specialist games, which would feature the full classic marine model range.  There could even be an interregnum period in future where there are no classic marines, but i doubt it would be a long period before the inevitable return of said designs.

[Dracos]

I don’t think bringing 30k models into the discussion about the future of 40k space marines is very relevant. That’s my opinion mind you and I was out of the game when HH became a thing, but as long as it’s a FW publication and not GW, even though they are under the same umbrella .... bringing 30k pieces into a discussion about the future of 40k seems to be grasping at straws ... again just my opinion on that avenue of the discussion.

[Robbienw]

Not really, as we are talking about the future of classic marine models, not the future of 40k.

 

Its easy to imagine there could be new ones in a future historical game type in the style of 30k.  And there are 30k origin models with 40k rules and fluff.  So its definitely relevant to the discussion.

[Marshal Rohr]

How are space marines in different marks of power armor in 30k irrelevant to space marines in different marks of power armor in 40k? Did I dream the last seven months of Iron Hands with Leviathans? Was there not a big hullabaloo over the whirlwind scorpius getting access to some strategem? A model kit is a model kit. Edited February 26, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[No Foes Remain]

I'm with Rohr here, they are labled as "Mark III Space Marines" not Horus Heresy Mark III Space Marines and they come with the standard equipment for a tactial squad so calling them 30k models is a bit much.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Go take a look at the plastic MK.III box. You may notice it says "THE HORUS HERESY" on the front bottom.

[Metzombie]

And they are painted blue on the box so they are clearly only useable by Ultramarines

 

Also the Warhammer 40k logo is right next to the Horus heresy one.

[No Foes Remain]

Go take a look at the plastic MK.III box. You may notice it says "THE HORUS HERESY" on the front bottom.

 

Fair point but at the top they also say Adeptus Astartes which didn't exist in the Crusade/Heresy.

[Marshal Rohr]

Weird. All my Solar Auxilia say Necromunda on them.

[Dracos]

How are space marines in different marks of power armor in 30k irrelevant to space marines in different marks of power armor in 40k? Did I dream the last seven months of Iron Hands with Leviathans? Was there not a big hullabaloo over the whirlwind scorpius getting access to some strategem? A model kit is a model kit.

Perspectives can respectfully disagree

 

I was responding to another post point that Firstborn should be considered alive and well because of those model kits that were supporting a 30k game. The On Topic is about future proof purchasing Firstborn being “dumb”.

 

I’ve already said that is too generic and inflammatory, almost trolling, as a topic of discussion ... and hey look where we’re heading hmmm.

 

My point was that imo ... which I owned as mine ... that I didn’t think bringing FW games and models into a discussion about the future model production of the Space Marine line was appropriate. GW is already planning to rewrite much of the FW material, and seeing as much of the community huff past six months revolves around OOP FW models (Chappie Dread and lesser so the Leviathan) it wouldn’t surprise me to see FW and its products fade away with the Firstborn production lines in 3/4 years.

 

I’m willing to be wrong. Happily but until I see real support for Firstborn products in the form of new sculpts and units I’m continued to be convinced to future proof an army your only path is Primaris.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Dracos