Dumb to buy non-Primaris?

[Lord_Caerolion]

My point is that the "proof" of the Firstborn vanishing from 40k is "but they're not making them anymore, so once the molds break they'll remove them entirely", or variants of this. Showing continued support of Firstborn marines for 30k pushes back the date of this occurring so far as to be irrelevant. They are still being made, and are still being supported, albeit primarily for a different game system. 

 

Do we really think GW is going to say "aw shucks, the box we design and produce for these Firstborn says Horus Heresy on it, time to take these away from 40k"?

[Dracos]

I'm with Rohr here, they are labled as "Mark III Space Marines" not Horus Heresy Mark III Space Marines and they come with the standard equipment for a tactial squad so calling them 30k models is a bit much.

I love how much depends on where your coming from. I started the game in 2nd edition and felt chased out of the game when Knights and Apocalypse hit the scene. I read a few HH books but it seemed gimmmicky made up fluff that didn’t fit my vision of the games past being mysterious the facts hidden in 10,000 years of war.

 

Kind of how many feel about the Primaris narrative. It felt artificial forced for the sake of selling books .... and no one like FW at the time except pier gamers. By the time Horus Heresy became a game I was long gone.

 

I think of HH models the same way many think of Primaris. Models made for a money grab that don’t belong in 40k (get off my lawn syndrome) I respect those who want to play out Badab and the Heresy. I just don’t think they belong in the future of the Astartes

 

That’s a personal opinion though .... and we all know what are personal opinions are worth. Better to stick On Topic and realize that while it’s not “dumb” to buy Firstborn, they are the past, not the future of the Space Marines.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That's a good way to put it. Firstborn are definitely the past for Marines, not the future. Any new releases for 40k are going to be for Primaris, true. However, they're not going to be vanishing any time soon. What I could see happening is them being separated, and moved to an "Ages of Darkness" book, which includes all Firstborn units, maybe even old Firstborn versions of characters that have crossed the Rubicon, and information on using them to redo the Badab War/First Tyrannic War/Rynns World, etc. 

 

Again, given all these stories feature fairly heavily in some of the codices and supplements, I just can't see GW ever telling the Crimson Fists, for example, "hey, wasn't the Fall of Rynn's World such a cool story? It's really the defining aspect of the Crimson Fists as a Chapter, really gave them their own identity. What's that? You want to recreate it? No! Bad Crimson Fists players! Bad! You only get Primaris!"

[bigtrouble]

a design and engineering process already paid for gets good ROI the longer it sticks around so long as it’s selling.

Agreed, it makes little sense for them to trash plastic kits they already own molds for. I think they just wanted to add Primaris to boost sales, get people buying new models for competitions and things like that.

Edited February 26, 2020 by bigtrouble

[Marshal Rohr]

 

I'm with Rohr here, they are labled as "Mark III Space Marines" not Horus Heresy Mark III Space Marines and they come with the standard equipment for a tactial squad so calling them 30k models is a bit much.

I love how much depends on where your coming from. I started the game in 2nd edition and felt chased out of the game when Knights and Apocalypse hit the scene. I read a few HH books but it seemed gimmmicky made up fluff that didn’t fit my vision of the games past being mysterious the facts hidden in 10,000 years of war.

 

Kind of how many feel about the Primaris narrative. It felt artificial forced for the sake of selling books .... and no one like FW at the time except pier gamers. By the time Horus Heresy became a game I was long gone.

 

I think of HH models the same way many think of Primaris. Models made for a money grab that don’t belong in 40k (get off my lawn syndrome) I respect those who want to play out Badab and the Heresy. I just don’t think they belong in the future of the Astartes

 

That’s a personal opinion though .... and we all know what are personal opinions are worth. Better to stick On Topic and realize that while it’s not “dumb” to buy Firstborn, they are the past, not the future of the Space Marines.

 

 

None of that, not a single part of it, explains how a squad of ten marines in Mark 2 armor would be unusable as oldmarines in 40k?

[Hymnblade]

Easy, just delete the corresponding datasheets. That's uh, kind of what this thread is about.

 

There are plenty of 30k models with no 40k rules; it is conceivable that the list will expand in the future.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Easy, just delete the corresponding datasheets. That's uh, kind of what this thread is about.

 

There are plenty of 30k models with no 40k rules; it is conceivable that the list will expand in the future.

 

So again, GW are going to release an Ultramarine Supplement full of stories of their heroism during the First Tyrannic War, but then not allow you to play during that time? Nah, can't see that happening. All 3 Wars of Armageddon, gone. Badab War, gone. Rynns World, gone. 

[Hymnblade]

 

Easy, just delete the corresponding datasheets. That's uh, kind of what this thread is about.

 

There are plenty of 30k models with no 40k rules; it is conceivable that the list will expand in the future.

 

So again, GW are going to release an Ultramarine Supplement full of stories of their heroism during the First Tyrannic War, but then not allow you to play during that time? Nah, can't see that happening. All 3 Wars of Armageddon, gone. Badab War, gone. Rynns World, gone.

Yes, I didn't say I expect it to happen, and in fact have spent most of the thread arguing that it is unlikely. But Marshal Rohr questioned how a model could possibly become unplayable, not whether it was a likely outcome.

[War Angel]

Take it to a different thread. This isn’t about 30k or badab or Armageddon.

[Panzer]

Do we really think GW is going to say "aw shucks, the box we design and produce for these Firstborn says Horus Heresy on it, time to take these away from 40k"?

 

Yes, pretty much. FW is FW and GW is GW. If GW doesn't produce the models anymore it's a given that sooner than later they'll disappear as option from the Codexes regardless of whether FW still produces similar models or not. You'd probably still be able to find them in Legends but we all know how that goes. "Yes of course you can still play them ... for their old point costs and unable to use the fancy new rules because of missing keywords and special rules and such".

Edited February 27, 2020 by Panzer

[Captain Idaho]

4 kits that are useable in both 30K and 40K isn't going to help Centurions, Ironclads, Land Raider variants, Land Speeders, Vanguard Veterans, anything with a Storm Shield, etc.

 

Not to mention Horus Heresy community hostility towards anything MK7 or with a chest aquila.

[No Foes Remain]

Idaho, with all due respect, its not being hostile to models but more respectful to the setting. Mk7 didn't exist for most of the Heresy and when it did it was only in the last stages of the Siege of Terra did the loyalist have it. Its the same situation with Primaris, they didn't exist before M42(if thats even the date anymore) so they can't be used as Primaris before then HOWEVER with conversions and appropriate modeling (like what Apologist has done with his Astral Claws) they could be made to look like Mk 7.

 

 

Also Aquilias were a thing during the Crusade/Heresy, just not the one with Lightning bolts as that was an honour given to the Emperor's Children alone.

Edited February 27, 2020 by No Foes Remain

[Ishagu]

It's never dumb to buy the models you like. The rules will exist for many years to come, if not indefinitely in one form or another.

[Robbienw]

There's a bit more than 4 kits that are usable in/dual 30k and 40k!

[Marshal Rohr]

Take it to a different thread. This isn’t about 30k or badab or Armageddon.

It’s about badab and Armageddon if someone wants to build armies from those eras. No Primaris there. It’s not dumb to buy oldmarines then.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[War Angel]

 

Take it to a different thread. This isn’t about 30k or badab or Armageddon.

It’s about badab and Armageddon if someone wants to build armies from those eras. No Primaris there. It’s not dumb to buy oldmarines then.

It’s never dumb to play non Primaris. They are still completely valid. But the arguing about HH is not for this thread. He wanted to know if he’s wasting his money buying those models.

[Marshal Rohr]

No one is arguing about the Horus Heresy at all. The Horus Heresy game system has no bearing on generic Horus Heresy kits being used for oldmarines. Every generic kit can be used in 40k. So while the 40k design studio may never release another plastic oldmarine kit, the specialist games studio will continue to support the old marine range. As for rules, they’re releasing Badab this year, which can only be played using oldmarines. That is continued support. Edited February 27, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Captain Idaho]

Ooo I haven't heard about the Badab thing. That's interesting.

[Marshal Rohr]

Ooo I haven't heard about the Badab thing. That's interesting.

I’m stoked for Vraks Redux but *that* would be off topic :D

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I think it might be a bit too over-zealous to say 30K isn't relevant to this discussion. Badab, perhaps. Armageddon, maybe even that is irrelevant despite a potential upcoming revisit with Ghazghkull. But 30K sales absolutely are EXTREMELY relevant to the fate of plastic Firstborn. It's the entire reason we even have plastic Mk III and IV and why we were given 40K datasheets for Cataphractii and Tartaros. Furthermore, many plastic GW 40K models started life as FW resin. The Valkyrie, the Tervigon, even the Drop Pod.

[War Angel]

I think it might be a bit too over-zealous to say 30K isn't relevant to this discussion. Badab, perhaps. Armageddon, maybe even that is irrelevant despite a potential upcoming revisit with Ghazghkull. But 30K sales absolutely are EXTREMELY relevant to the fate of plastic Firstborn. It's the entire reason we even have plastic Mk III and IV and why we were given 40K datasheets for Cataphractii and Tartaros. Furthermore, many plastic GW 40K models started life as FW resin. The Valkyrie, the Tervigon, even the Drop Pod.

Can it be relevant? Sure. But rereading the OP, I think it’s clear that he was looking at 40k. I could be wrong but I read it as him wanting to know if he should even bother with buying firstborn for his 40karmy, because he doesn’t want to spend money on something obsolete that was being replaced by Primaris models.

[Agamemnon-2.0]

Given the continuing output of models for the Heresy, which will soon include Mk7 armour, that's going to be a long time coming.

 

I'm hoping we'll see some resin Mark VIIs from FW at the end of the HH campaign as a kind of last hurrah for the design since GW is now less likely to make new ones. I could always use more leg and arm poses for my stuff.

[MegaVolt87]

 

Given the continuing output of models for the Heresy, which will soon include Mk7 armour, that's going to be a long time coming.

 

 

 

I'm hoping we'll see some resin Mark VIIs from FW at the end of the HH campaign as a kind of last hurrah for the design since GW is now less likely to make new ones. I could always use more leg and arm poses for my stuff.

Hard pass on generic units in resin like that. Save resin kits for upgrades and legion unique infantry. Plastic generic kits are popular, cheaper for the hobbyists and will pay for themselves soon enough.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Exactly. If they're already making plastic Mk3 and Mk4, I can't see any reason to change those back to resin, and the same goes for the current "Mk7" Tactical Squad. Remember, once the plastic Mk3 and Mk4 came out, Forge World stopped making the resin kits for those armour marks, outside of Legion-specific variants.

[Aurica]

IMO, you are better off just buying Primaris to future proof your collection.  While mini marines are here to stay... there are no doubts they will eventually be replaced.  It is just a matter of time.  I personally like my tactical marines very much but even so... I won't deny that the writing is in on the wall.