Dumb to buy non-Primaris?

[Nocturne Noble]

I think it’s best that we’re honest with ourselves: Primaris are the refresh of the Space Marine line. The new aesthetic will not regress - though it may and has taken cues from the older lines - and it’s highly unlikely that there will be new units or characters made in the old scale and style via the 40K brand beyond novelty.

 

Inevitably there’ll come a time when the older sculpts are discontinued altogether and that will be that, it’s happened before (see earlier editions). Gradually, “Primaris” will become just as synonymous as “Astartes” in the mind of the average hobbyist and only the most vehement detractors of the now standard range will deign to comment on how Space Marines use to look. 

 

Is it “dumb” to buy the old units? While it certainly is not foolish the collector needs to acknowledge that their collection will eventually lose support from the manufacturer and supplies will diminish in time. It’s a choice that each hobbyist must make with their eyes wide open.

 

If I were asked by a new collector which range to buy; personally, I wouldn’t recommend the old units in favour of Primaris, bias aside, for the points I made earlier. But if you like the old sculpts/rules then have at it.

 

Current hobbyists who own a substantial quantity of the old line have a different conundrum altogether that’s tied up in their nostalgia and the sheer investment (financially and emotionally) that they’ve made to date. But that’s another topic.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Nocturne Noble

[Panzer]

I think it’s best that we’re honest with ourselves: Primaris are the refresh of the Space Marine line. The new aesthetic will not regress - though it may and has taken cues from the older lines - and it’s highly unlikely that there will be new units or characters made in the old scale and style via the 40K brand beyond novelty.

 

Inevitably there’ll come a time when the older sculpts are discontinued altogether and that will be that, it’s happened before (see earlier editions). Gradually, “Primaris” will become just as synonymous as “Astartes” in the mind of the average hobbyist and only the most vehement detractors of the now standard range will deign to comment on how Space Marines use to look. 

 

 

I can only partially agree with that post.

Yes, Primaris are here to stay but they won't become THE Astartes as in "we don't talk about the Marines before them" since the Chaos range just got an update on those and I don't see them getting Primaris at all.

GW speaks a clear language of intending to separate the two model lines so Chaos Marines aren't just loyalists with spikes anymore. Primaris Marines are here to stay but they will always be Primaris Marines. The bigger and stronger Marines that came after the original Marines designed by the Emperor 10k years ago.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

There are a lot of non-Primaris Space Marine kits that a relatively new that I highly doubt GW is planning on dropping in the next few years. All the Flyers, some of the new tanks, Devs were re-done after the Tactical Squad box was re-done.. I know there's kits I'm forgetting about but I really don't see the Primaris line as a complete replacement for everything legacy Marines. Maybe we'll see those replacement (I doubt it) but just think for a second what it would mean for GW to do away with the legacy Marine and all the kits that go along with that... I'm sorry, that's approaching the tin-foil hat realm of conspiracy theory. Look at Deathwatch and all that came out for them, those models are larger scaled legacy Marines and are not Primaris. You all truly believe that all of those new plastic kits are going to be purposefully phased out in any sense of a near future? I'm not buying it...

Edited April 6, 2020 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Captain Idaho]

I've been in communication with a well known 40K YouTuber who attended an event and directly asked the games developers on my behalf whether there are any plans to release Classic Marines in the future. The answer was "no, they won't be releasing any more new Classic Marine kits".

 

That tells you a lot of intent.

 

It's of course possible this might be changed in the future (as the event was over a year ago now) but have we seen ANY evidence to suggest otherwise from GW? Existing characters have been replaced with Primaris including kits known as high quality, such as Calgar in Terminator armour.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

And how many existing Armies in 40k have gone decades without having new kits released or models updated?

So, effectively, what that means is not only are legacy Marines going away, but we should expect to see Deathwatch gone, Grey Knights gone, and all of the characters who have not been replaced killed off?

There is a big difference between no plans in releasing new kits and ending all possibility of using legacy Marines in the future because they will have no rules or support.

Also, It's a stretch to claim Existing characters have been replaced with Primaris.. There are a lot of characters who haven't been touched. We have really only seen a handful at this point. One of those desperately needed a new model period. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Captain Idaho]

Well we all interpret things differently but proof will be in the pudding, so to speak.

 

What kind of pudding I don't know, but I hope it is chocolate based and excessive in calorie content.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Robbienw]

GW always come back to classic well loved designs eventually, I just can’t see them never doing stuff like mk 6 and 7 marines in future. Longer term of course, as Bloody Legionairre was saying most classic marine kits are modern and wouldn’t be up for replacement for a while.

[War Angel]

I could see them at some point in the future making mk6/7 power armor but in Primaris size.

[Philip S]

I could see them at some point in the future making mk6/7 power armor but in Primaris size.

I would have liked to have seen true scale marines too.

 

The Primaris seem to be a version of true scale. As they are the size which the original marines should be, while the Primaris, if they were true scale too; would be even bigger!

[War Angel]

How tall are they?

[Spaced Hulk]

No new classic marines (not counting HH releases) is not the same as removing the range from sale.

 

There are plenty of armies, for both AOS and 40k, whose model range is ' frozen', often utilising kits that are many years (sometimes decades) old. Those armies are still supported with rules and their models, whilst old, are still available.

 

The classic marine range, with a few exceptions, is comparatively new. Realistically, what could GW do to the core Marine units (Tactical, Assault & Devastator) that would improve over their current versions? Personally, I think one of the main reasons for the introduction of Primaris was because GW felt they had progressed as far as possible in terms of updating the original Space Marine line, and needed a way to continue adding brand new units for people to buy. Which is exactly what the Primaris range does. There is a limited number of ways the classic marine range can be expanded now (generally borrowing unit ideas from 30k), but with Primaris, the only limitation is whatever the designers can imagine. That is why we're probably only going to get Primaris releases from now on.

 

That said, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into the idea that GW is going to scrap classic marines and force everyone to buy Primaris Marines for their power armour fix. As long as people want to buy classic marines, GW is going to continue to sell them. Space Marines, of any sort, are GW's bread and butter, and probably sell more units than the other 40k armies combined. GW doesn't really care whether you're buying classic marines or Primaris. They're a business, and they're quite happy to sell you both. That's not going to change.

[Panzer]

No new classic marines (not counting HH releases) is not the same as removing the range from sale.

 

There are plenty of armies, for both AOS and 40k, whose model range is ' frozen', often utilising kits that are many years (sometimes decades) old. Those armies are still supported with rules and their models, whilst old, are still available.

 

 

That's completely true, however on the other hand, history shows that recent models don't ensure support at all.

In WHFB Tomb Kings got a LOT of new models (like 7 kits or so, some with dual purpose) and the entire faction got squatted only ~5 years after. So you see even if Devastator squads or whatever aren't ancient, the simple fact that GW is now focussed on Primaris could be enough to squat them sooner than later.

We can just be glad that they decided to make this a slow and steady progress instead of what they did in the past. They won't disappear from the fluff and you will be able to keep using them thanks to Legends but make no mistake, at some point support for classic Marines will stop and they will be a thing of the past for loyalists with only Chaos still having non-Primaris. Perhaps something as exotic as Grey Knights will stay non-Primaris too, though I don't see that happening for much longer.

[Captain Idaho]

If the question is "what new things can GW do for the kits anyway?" the answer is fairly easy - Marines that match Deathwatch particularly the legs etc.

 

New units and weapons. I mean, Cawl introduces all this new technology but Classic Marines couldn't have it; the fluff has been established that things can change. The notion that any Primaris specific units could only have been done Primaris is flawed.

 

The scope was there for new things and the fact GW had chosen not to speaks volumes.

[Robbienw]

Not sure a niche WHFB army like Tomb Kings is a good comparison with classic Space Marines in terms of popularity and sales :lol:   Their 'squatting' may also prove to be temporary when Warhammer the Old World gets going.

[Panzer]

Not sure a niche WHFB army like Tomb Kings is a good comparison with classic Space Marines in terms of popularity and sales    Their 'squatting' may also prove to be temporary when Warhammer the Old World gets going.

 

Anything is niche compared with Marines, however exactly because Marines sell so good no matter what one shouldn't expect classic Marines to stick around forever. It's not like Primaris sell worse.

[Robbienw]

One should expect them to stick around for a long time in some format, in ones view

Edited April 7, 2020 by Robbienw

[Ishagu]

Nothing lasts forever. One day the Primaris might be replaced.

[Robbienw]

I think something that will be interesting to see what will happen with the long term direction and look of marine models in future is when Jes Goodwin retires.  He's going to be 60 this year, so he's going to be retiring in the next 5 years or so.  He's been the one in charge of the space marine models look direction since the start.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Robbienw

[War Angel]

Nothing lasts forever. One day the Primaris might be replaced.

Doubt it, the way they are written, GW is able to add new things to their line. But with classic marines, GW added something new and everyone freaked out that “change doesn’t happen in 40k”

 

And why would he design new things for classic marines? Those aren’t his brain child, Primaris are. He’s going to keep outfitting them.

[Spaced Hulk]

 

 

 

 

 

No new classic marines (not counting HH releases) is not the same as removing the range from sale.

There are plenty of armies, for both AOS and 40k, whose model range is ' frozen', often utilising kits that are many years (sometimes decades) old. Those armies are still supported with rules and their models, whilst old, are still available.

 

That's completely true, however on the other hand, history shows that recent models don't ensure support at all.

In WHFB Tomb Kings got a LOT of new models (like 7 kits or so, some with dual purpose) and the entire faction got squatted only ~5 years after. So you see even if Devastator squads or whatever aren't ancient, the simple fact that GW is now focussed on Primaris could be enough to squat them sooner than later.

 

You're right of course, but I'm not sure how comparable the two situations are. Space Marines are GW's bread and butter, while Fantasy was selling so badly they replaced the entire game. Tomb Kings were also perhaps too similar to the main Undead faction, and also tied to a specific region of the Old World. GW has done a lot with the Undead in AOS, so perhaps removing the Tomb Kings was necessary to allow that? Anyway, that's enough OT.

 

Time will tell I suppose where classic marines are concerned. I should think sales of Primaris are probably greater than classic marines now, but equally I would think the classic range is still selling. Let's face it, the classic marine range is massive, it's going to take a long time for Primaris to get anywhere close to the range of models available.

 

Considering the age of kits like Khorne Berserkers, DA Company Veterans etc, not to mention all the back catalogue models and special characters that are still available on the web store, and I'm not sure why GW would need to stop selling the classic range any time soon. Shelf space in stores isn't a factor any more, so why would GW risk creating the inevitable ill feeling by squatting the range? To be honest, I reckon Space Marines are probably the most integral part of GW's business, and one they won't take any chances with.

 

If the question is "what new things can GW do for the kits anyway?" the answer is fairly easy - Marines that match Deathwatch particularly the legs etc.

New units and weapons. I mean, Cawl introduces all this new technology but Classic Marines couldn't have it; the fluff has been established that things can change. The notion that any Primaris specific units could only have been done Primaris is flawed.

The scope was there for new things and the fact GW had chosen not to speaks volumes.

Expanding the classic marine range would have also meant changing thirty years of lore as to what a Codex Chapter consists of. They tried doing that with Centurians, and it wasn't particularly that well received. Perhaps they thought if we're going to do this, why not go the whole hog and launch a new range that solves a number of issues at the same time, eg: more easily protected IP, no artificial limits on what can be added, better scale and proportions (subjective I know).

 

I have no doubt that Primaris are the future of Space Marines at this point. But I'd say that Space Marines in general are so important to GW's business that they're also going to keep selling the classic range alongside Primaris until we, the customers, stop buying them. And as long as they sell them, they will support them with rules.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Spaced Hulk

[Captain Idaho]

Did Primaris not change 30 years of lore what a Codex Chapter consists of?

 

Regarding Centurions... they sell well as they're powerful on the table. The fluff... well people will moan about anything.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There is still lots of great old Marine units that can’t be filled by Primaris yet...

 

Smash Captain

Centurions

Certain Special Characters

Bikers

Techmarines*

etc.

[Captain Idaho]

I would even go as far as to broaden that scope, but it doesn't take away from the fact Classic Marines are getting phased out.

[Ishagu]

I don't think GW will replace all these units with Primaris.

 

Smash Captain is the result of people selecting the most powerful wargear from a unit with too many options.

In 7th it was Bike Captain and Lord on Thunderwolf. Most people don't care about having lots of options as they'll only take the best ones anyways, and those vary with the times. Remember when every vanilla codex Captain had a storm-shield and acted as a bullet sponge for the units he was attached to?

 

I think GW will create more HQ models but the wargear will be fixed, with only limited variation of things which are equally good but situational, eg: different Bolt Rifles.

I imagine that with the next update they'll release a Gravis Captain and maybe a Bike HQ who also has fixed wargear.

 

Centurions are a strange unit imo. They shouldn't be classed as infantry but instead a "battlesuit." I can imagine a Primaris variant in the future - a super heavy squad armed with powerful ranged or close combat weapons.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m glad cents are classed as infantry for the strats and movement rules. Pretty much in consensus with your take on where GW is going.