More Nerfs?

[tychobi]

So the jig is up, Iron Hands are still really powerful. Defensive combos put a forge world fueled disturbingly non interactive Iron Hands list on top at LVO.

 

Do Iron Hands deserve more nerfs?

 

I think yes. And forge world needs to be brought in line or removed from competative play.

 

What do you think?

[Gederas]

Yes.

 

Also: Forge World is NOT the issue. It's entirely Iron Hands, and only Iron Hands.

 

Look at it like this: All of those Forge World units being used? Those have been unchanged, rules-wise, since the indices came out. They weren't considered Overpowered/Broken when 8th edition came out. Suddenly, they're now broken and OP. Why? Because Iron Hands are the thing that's busted.

[GrinNfool]

Don't have a real opinion on forgeworld, but do disagree that its IH and ONLY IH as gederas says.  RG being run as successors is almost as good.  IMO there are two problems, IH, thats clear and obvious, think anyone who doesn't see that at this point has their head in the sand but that is just how I see it.  The other problem that is a bit less obvious is successors with custom tactics but getting super doctrines and strategems.  I think if successors lost their super doctrine bonus (unless they take that one tactic that makes them essentially the same as their founding chapter) it would be a step in the right direction, losing the strategems is a bit more debate-able.  I think in the long run they should, but would be wiser to remove the super doctrine and wait and see.  Custom chapter tactics being combined with strats and super doctrines that the doctrines and strats weren't designed around is a pretty dangerous design space.

 

The one thing that has become quite clear from PA so far is other factions are not getting the same treatment when it comes to custom CTs.  Other factions are losing their strategems, relics, orders, etc to be able to grab custom traits.  With marines we are kind of spoiled for choice being able to pick tactics, and still get super doctrines, relics, and strategems.  By and large the main chapters being run with their intended traits and strategems are generally good, but not broken (IH excluded).  The custom tactics + everything is a bit much, and is very apparent for RG successors.

[UnkyHamHam]

Probably not the place for this discussion, but I would have tied the super doctrines to 1 or more qualifiers.

 

Like Warlord must be alive and on table, and maybe even 3cp to activate it every battle round.

 

They are so stupid good.

[Panzer]

Probably not the place for this discussion, but I would have tied the super doctrines to 1 or more qualifiers.

 

Like Warlord must be alive and on table, and maybe even 3cp to activate it every battle round.

 

They are so stupid good.

 

That makes no sense. It's just the way the chapter fights, not the Warlord telling them how to fight. Also 3CP for a Marine army is WAY too much. Especially when you consider that not all the super doctrines are equally strong.

 

Also IH are really strong, yes. However do they really require a big nerf from GW? Do they dominate all the tournaments? Afaik other factions still get to the top spots on lots of tournaments, and especially on non-ITC tournaments. If they only dominate ITC tournaments, then the ITC houserules are the problem I'd say.

Don't confuse being the strongest with being broken and requirering fixing.

[tychobi]

Probably not the place for this discussion, but I would have tied the super doctrines to 1 or more qualifiers.

 

Like Warlord must be alive and on table, and maybe even 3cp to activate it every battle round.

 

They are so stupid good.

This is so the place!

Interesting ideas for sure. I think there are too many static rules applied to Iron Hands in default (dev) doctrine. Allowing an opponent to remove some rules or needing them to be activated are good ideas. I thought of only allowing the no move penalty for heavy for the first turn. Or just removal of some rules. The lieutenant is the only buff aura i care about with hands. Possibly tying the overwatch and feel no pain stuff to character auras? Without the normal buff tax I get soooo many guns!

[MegaVolt87]

We have had half a dozen of these threads already, everyone is posting the same positions on the matter as the others. Since its groundhog day, FW units need a decoupling from codex stratagems and relics, with their own unige FW set at 2-3 CP each to use where they cannot interact with the codex. Iron Hands don't need a nerf, FW units don't need a nerf, the interactions need to be self contained between the two. Like how you can't use kill shot with FW preads etc. Simple so everyone else is not screwed over because of outliers. 

[WarriorFish]

Indeed.