Bloodthristers

[Just Alexis]

Hello everyone, was just wondering what is the best way to use Bloodthristers...

Everybody in my War-gaming club say their bad and shouldn't use them, but i don't play to win all the time, i also like i have models i think look super amazing and a Bloodthrister is my favorite mode in all of warhammer...

So was wanting some people on how to make them work, i don't play daemon lists, but i do play chaos space marines and have done a few summoning lists.

[Cheex]

Everybody in my War-gaming club say their bad and shouldn't use them...

 

By that logic, you shouldn't use Daemons at all. Or anything except Space Marines. Why bother playing if you're not playing the best, right?

 

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, Armour of Scorn, Denizens of the Warp. Backed up with a Bloodletter bomb, it could do some work.

 

We're also a month or so away from our Psychic Awakening book, so there might be some useful stuff in there as well.

[Just Alexis]

Ah yes i forgot about the Psychic Awakening book, that might make them even cooler :D

I just really want to own a Bloodthrister as to summon one is a roll of 17 out of 3d6 or if i use my psychic power from master of possession its 4d6 :D

Just summon Bloodthrister 9" away from them in turn 1, so good :P

[WarriorFish]

I don't play Khorne so can't offer detailed advice - other than to say that wanting to own a model is reason enough! As Cheex says calling something "bad" is a nigh useless comment. What does bad mean without context? Plus as noted, this is a rather short sighted way to approach the hobby. Most things can work if you're not playing tourney, and as Daemons aren't the most competitive currently it matters less...

 

Greater Daemons could do with some improvements, they're a bit squishy, so it's not a problem solely for Bloodthirsters. You need to get them stuck in as soon as you can - summoning would be useful here to do that (though Daemons are better overall in their own Detachment - as arguably is everything!). Their drawbacks are perhaps not so much of an issue if you're solely planning on running them as summons for your CSM, but if you do want a Daemons force the best advice I've heard is to squeeze in as much as you can. Two Bloodthirsters for example...

 

If it is the former for summoning, I was pondering the same in this topic which might be worth reading if you've not already

[Just Alexis]

Well WarriorFish, if you take a look into my Legion of the Faithless Roses down in my signature you can see what i am working with in a tourney level, for friendly play the deredeos would be changed out for havocs as for some reason people in my club are fine facing 12 lascannons with t5 models, but not 3 deredeo's.

The list is made to summon daemons with lord arkos not moving as i can place him where i need, the master of possession can move to him with the warlord trait, and having the daemon patrol allows me to use stratagems from the daemon codex, which i asked my friend i can use daemon stratagems on my chaos space marines if the key words work, there is a stratagem in daemons that works on CHAOS CHARACTERS which lord arkos is, they take d3 mortal wounds but can summon on 4d6 dice, giving me bigger chance for 17 and master of possession has his power to also summon on 4d6 :)

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Cheex gave you about the best advice you can get on how to make a Bloodthirster work. I've had that combo tear things up on lucky rolls. Once upon a time I declared a charge into a squad of 30 boyz and 20 grots, tanked overwatch and made it into the grots, and followed the thirster in with a demon prince with the Crimson Crown. My thirster killed 17 of the 20 grots with his first 14 attacks, consolidated to 2 away from the boys, and then I activated fight again and killed 24 Boyz with 14 attacks.

 

Next round he retreated those boys out, shot a full squad of Flash Gits into the thirster that completely bounced, then charged me with 30 more Boyz. They did 3 wounds, and my next 14 attacks killed 23 of them.

 

That's the flat out best run I've ever had with a Thirster, and man it was glorious. 64 models in 2 turns from one  guy. And you know what 64 is?

 

8*8

 

Blood For The Blood God!

[Irate Khornate]

Whenever I run Bloodthirsters, I run the Insensate rage loadout and bring at least two other viable threats if they're starting on the table. Now what constitutes viable? Something that looks and is just as (if not More So) mean and killy as a 1st bracket thirster, like a knight or two or a couple more thirsters. While adding a couple of workhorse units to actually get the job done, like Disco Lords.

 

But with this being the case, the rest of my army is usually hoards upon hoards of bloodletters/cultists coverhumping their way up the board onto objectives. Either that or I go full Monster Mash and just completely saturate the board with viable killing machines.

 

For now, id say buy the models you want. From experience they're an absolutely fantastic model to build and paint. Plus if you paint them red, using water thinned blood for the blood god gives them a "Sweat" sheen which is super useful for an unarmored torso needing to pop.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Whenever I run Bloodthirsters, I run the Insensate rage loadout and bring at least two other viable threats if they're starting on the table. Now what constitutes viable? Something that looks and is just as (if not More So) mean and killy as a 1st bracket thirster, like a knight or two or a couple more thirsters. While adding a couple of workhorse units to actually get the job done, like Disco Lords.

But with this being the case, the rest of my army is usually hoards upon hoards of bloodletters/cultists coverhumping their way up the board onto objectives. Either that or I go full Monster Mash and just completely saturate the board with viable killing machines.

For now, id say buy the models you want. From experience they're an absolutely fantastic model to build and paint. Plus if you paint them red, using water thinned blood for the blood god gives them a "Sweat" sheen which is super useful for an unarmored torso needing to pop.

Theres a lad at my local who runs a similar set up. He's also a diehard Khan fan. He seem to do pretty well even when playing for fun.

[dice4thedicegod]

What points level are you playing?

 

If doing small games, even one may be quite durable. (Armor of scorn may be a good investment)

 

In full size , 2k, games... probably best to bring a lot of threats.

 

I like wrath of khorne BT myself... doesn’t degrade as badly as some other types. (And that faq hit the insensate rage hard - hitting at str 15 instead of 16)

[The Neverborn]

Hello everyone, was just wondering what is the best way to use Bloodthristers...

 

 

 

Use them as proxy Daemon Princes 

 

Okay that was hyperbole but it's not too far from the truth, it's amazing that even after being reduced in two consecutive chapter approved, these iconic symbols of the hobby are essentially unplayable.

 

The issue is that Daemons have no way to "saturate" the field, a Space Marine Player can take a Land Raider, then put all their infantry in Rhinos forcing the opponent to dilute their output of fire. Focus firing is still an option but if you're clever you can use board position to influence choices. - Deamons don't really have this outside comedy, lists taking 75% of their points in Greater Deamons which will work only in small games and then is usually considered poor gamesmanship

 

Deploying them is a waste of time, GW missed something here. Being that when a Greater Deamon gets wounded, it looses Attacks, Movement and in most cases Accuracy too. This means it's harder to get to close combat, and when you get their, your Max Damage potential is gimped and there a greater chance to wiff. In contrast a Predator tank looses the same 3 states  BS (instead of WS), A and M. However it doesn't really matter that it's Lost A and M. So it's only really losing 1 stat, Greater Deamons loose, in most cases, 3 meaningful stats so it's 3 times the problem. Add that to they're CC specialists in a shooting game.

 

Deep striking not only eats command points but will maybe work on only 1-out-of-5 opponents. It's too easy to build large "Bubble Zones" While you can try and make that difficult for opponent, that would occupy your whole strategy and doesn't completely solve the  problem, so at this point you're better off trying something else.

 

Psychic awakening probably won't help as there's no realistic way of fixing the problem without making the whole codex OP. As long as the bubbling exists that option is blocked out. Giving Deamons a way to break that rule would help but would need to be done in away that wasn't too "Genestealer Cultish". 

 

I had the idea of Giving Greater Deamons a vs shooting attack rule, something like, before rolling to hit for a shooting attack the opponent must first roll a 4+ for Flight, Dodging, Hordes of Flies, Eftermal phasing -failing looses the attack, delete for your God, however this would be extremely unlikely, it's probably OP and not consistent with the broader rules of the game.

 

Essentially your best bet it is to wait for a new BRB and hope the core rules shift enough to make any of the Greater Deamons playable

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/gallery/album/16186-my-daemons/

Edited March 9, 2020 by Battle Brother Abderus

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I think Bloodthirsters, at their current points, could be fixed by the following:

 

Hounds become a troupe choice in pure khorne armies (we need CP badly)

All pure Khorne armies have a rule where their slain models are not removed from the table until the end of the phase.

All Bloodthirster stats go UP the more they are wounded.

A strat that halves all the damage thirsters take in a phase.

A strat that allows a thirster to heal by slaying models (including the ability to heal back from -0 if not yet removed).

 

A strat that allows you to attack and pile in to chase down an enemy that retreats out of combat.

A strat that allows a unit to move and advance toward a unit who shot at them.

A strat that allows us to ignore overwatch somehow.

 

Imagine how turbo charged we'd be with just these changes, allowing us to use more CP, making our thirsters harder to kill and much, much more killy if you attempt the kill but fall short. And if you get one to his top bracket, shoot, and he lives, he can then use his amped up speed and advance to come barreling in toward you, ready to start murdering next round and healing himself back up.

[The Neverborn]

I think Bloodthirsters, at their current points, could be fixed by the following:

 

Hounds become a troupe choice in pure khorne armies (we need CP badly) - Would Help 

All pure Khorne armies have a rule where their slain models are not removed from the table until the end of the phase. - Absurdly OP

All Bloodthirster stats go UP the more they are wounded. - Would be ok if SOME did this otherwise OP

A strat that halves all the damage thirsters take in a phase. - Yes

A strat that allows a thirster to heal by slaying models (including the ability to heal back from -0 if not yet removed). - Agreed with the idea, but it needs work a bit "Unluffly"

 

A strat that allows you to attack and pile in to chase down an enemy that retreats out of combat. - Yes

A strat that allows a unit to move and advance toward a unit who shot at them. - Yes

A strat that allows us to ignore overwatch somehow. - Yes

 

Imagine how turbo charged we'd be with just these changes, allowing us to use more CP, making our thirsters harder to kill and much, much more killy if you attempt the kill but fall short. And if you get one to his top bracket, shoot, and he lives, he can then use his amped up speed and advance to come barreling in toward you, ready to start murdering next round and healing himself back up.

 

 

Responses inline

 

Also Tzeencth, Nurgle and Slaanesh would need similar rules otherwise it's actually reducing from the overall dex.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Battle Brother Abderus

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I contest the idea that making pure Khorne daemon armies not remove models until the end of the phase would be wildly OP. It'd be strong as hell, don't get me wrong, but if it goes away with soup I don't feel it'd be OP. I've been playing pure Khorne in 8th for a good while now, and I can't think of a better way to increase survivability on the table, make Slaanesh matches less 1 sided, and also not overly effect the shooting phase. Giving them an FNP steps on the toes of nurgle, as does more toughness. Increasing their invuln makes them Tzeanch, and making them fight first pokes holes in Slaanesh. Yet if you've ever tried fighting any of these pure daemon armies you realize just how much Khorne lacks in comparison, as nothing he has tricks wise really helps. All we need to do is make sure it can't be abused by people taking 1 Bloodletter bomb with a solid army of other chaos units and abusing them as a stop gap.

 

And yes, all daemons needs love and buffs. I hope they get them too. But I only play Khorne, and can only give my advice based on such.

[The Neverborn]

You need to think bigger.

 

Making them all that strong would make the codex massively OP or reduce the effective choices by 3/4. 

 

If you give Khorne those buffs, you would need to give Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch equally strong buffs.

 

You'd run the problem of creating a codex where mono god build becomes compulsory, or effectively compulsory. What this means is that which ever god becomes the strongest is the only one that gets used and you functionally reduce the effective codex by three-quarters. 

 

This is why the Stratagems you suggested were probably the best as they strike a little balance between buffing the codex as a whole without making mono-god builds compulsory. 

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Right now there are no reasons to play mono god at all, which massively shafts Khorne, doesn't effect Nurgle at all, and the other two can do with or without. Khorne needs a push that big. It's a faction with no access to psychic, almost no access to mortal wounds outside of psychic, no defensive buffs, very few offensive buffs, and no tricks at all to do with movement or the like. Khorne has no tools in his kit at all, where as all other mono factions of Daemons have plenty. Giving them a slight buff would reward people loyal to their faction, though it doesn't need to be as large a push as Khorne. Go through the books and take a second look. The only thing Khorne has ready access to is high strength (less high than armies with lots of battle cannon shots) and high AP attacks. There is nothing else he can do. The bumps each faction needs are relative, and Khorne needs one this intense to make the damn thing work.

[The Neverborn]

Ok so before I go any further I do think Daemons is a very underpowered DeX and about 80% of the entries are a waste of space.

 

But when we're talking about loci, Tzeentch is bar far the weakest. Nurgle is quite situational. Slannesh is probably the strongest, which is ironic as she's probably the weakest overall.

 

Re-Rolling charges is a clear benefit and the krone banner start is easily the best of all thr banner strats.

 

However if you were to point out that deep striking, which is when the above is most useful is easily countered I'd agree with you, I'd only disagree in that playing khorne has significantly poorer benefits than Slaanesh or Tzeentch. Nurgle however is clearly the strongest mono build.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

There is a lot that goes into determining whether an army works in this edition of the game or doesn't. Rerolling charges is a useful buff, but only if you can make it into charge range, and this is a buff that some Slaanesh get baked in to their data sheets now. In terms of banners, the 3d6 charges is amazing for making deepstrike reliable, but at the very minimum that is 2 CP, 1 for banner, 1 for DS. It's as high as 3, 4 if you count the cost of deep striking a character along with them. And that is the only way to make Khorne units work. Starting Bloodletters on the table is just throwing bloodletters away, as they can't really make it anywhere with enough demons left to be a threat. In contrast, Daemonettes are 1 point cheaper per model, adding up to 30 to 90 points cheaper in realistic numbers, and are 1 inch faster on top of being able to advance and charge. If they don't get a turn 1 charge, they are almost garanteed one in turn 2, meaning that 90 on the table have a good chance of getting something done. That, on top of the rest of the army being blisteringly fast allows them to save their CP for rerolls and strats, which their current is already better than what Khorne gets. In addition, fighting first means that any time there is a fight with more than 2 units, they get a 2 CP interrupt for free. On top of that, they have tons of psychic phase buffs, like fight out of phase (situational but fun), as well as an FNP and mortal wounds or debuffs/buffs. They can play with negative penalties to hit or wound, which is something Khorne has 0 access to.

 

Tzeench is in a slightly awkward place. While their loci is sometimes great but usually garbage, and only applies to their worst case anyway, their mortal wound output and ability to take advantage of the shooting phase gives them a big leg up over Khorne. It effectively allows them to do damage without eating overwatch or allowing the enemy to hurt them on their turn. They also have some light buffs they can throw out, like rerolling 1s to wound, and +1 to wound, neither of which Khorne has access to, on top of better invuln saves and access to out of psychic mortals on screamers and all the flamer spam a man could want. All the psychers on the field means they're equally good at locking it down, and their strats aren't awful, making them better at what they do.

 

Really, the problem is just Khorne has no tools, like I've said. There is 0 way to give enemies penalties to hit or wound, 0 FNP, 0 ways to force people to play on your terms. No regeneration other than basic banners, no mortal wounds to peel through invulns, very very little shooting, and the one way to get basic troupes across the field is preventatively expensive. Every game I've ever won as Khorne has been by using my dogs to hold objectives for points while I throw the rest of my army at the enemy and force them to shoot it apart or die, then use a last minute deep strike of 1-2 bombs to tie up enemies in the end game and spare my dogs just that little bit longer so they eek out the win. It's hard, and doesn't make me feel like the blood mad killers I wish I was.

 

Still more fun than I was having on Templars though. At least people fear my melee when I play Khorne and shoot me off the table, but that's about the only hand forcing I can do.

[Irate Khornate]

We're getting quite a bit off topic. Let's reign it back in or one of you can start a thread to discuss this further. Plus if I remember correctly Daemons is next on the block for their Psychic Awakening. Let's see how that goes before we continue to play the Great Game.

[The Neverborn]

Thanks for your input Khornate, it's not as off topic as it appears, though I'd agree it's now become a, how to fix the codex. It may appear off topic only because when you change a bloodthister you also must consider how you effect the rest of the codex.

 

But getting back on topic I think Marshall and I can agree in the current DeX there is no way of using Bloodthirsters, at least in competitive play.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I don't think we'll see PA change datasheets much, if at all, but I really wish the thirster breath attack was changed to mortal wounds rather than a flamer. Little tweaks like that. I play the big red boys in Sigmar more often than 40K, and that's another one of the things I wouldn't mind seeing ported over.

 

Pretty sure PA will just be re-worked warlord traits, strats, and relics. If we're lucky we'll go up to around 8 per god, and they won't pull too heavily from, say, the slightly underwhelming Vigilus detachment. But I'd say some strats to make Greater Daemons stick to the table are very likely. Just call it a hunch.

[The Neverborn]

Agreed, the problems with Bloodthristers, along with the rest of the Dex are too fundamental to be fixed with a Datasheet here or there. It's an entire new dex. And even then as we've demonstrated it's hard to balance.

 

Right now if you're playing Daemons you're pretty much required to use Daemon Princes and Plague Bearers. - Sad really.  

[dice4thedicegod]

I don’t think they need too many things... either a stratagem for damage reduction (like loyalist dreadnoughts get) or their damage table becoming more like the lord of skulls (ie strength goes down but attacks go up as they are wounded) would help tremendously. Maybe both things.

 

It seems like a keeper of secrets is just straight up better than a bloodthirster at the moment .

[Cheex]

I'm reminded here about CSM Warp Talons. For a couple of editions, including the start of 8th, Warp Talons were widely considered to be rubbish, but nowadays they can work quite well thanks to various stratagems and warlord traits.

 

There is certainly the potential for this to happen to Greater Daemons as well. As much as they deserve a better statline/damage table, bandaid fixes like strats or traits can do a lot to help them.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

And points drop - I don't think the stratagems and warlord traits would have done it on their own.

 

So, I don't think any changes, unless they include a significant decrease in points and/or a better datasheet will fix greater daemons.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

BTs are down to 210-230 a pop, or something like that, with Skarbrand being a bit more. As long as we can actually get them into the lines and killing the right things they could make those points back. Skarbrand especially could tear things up if we could only get him in, with his anti retreat aura and leadership immunity buff. I'm pretty happy with the points right now, as they're priced like an expensive tank but a lot more killy than one when they get in. They just need to be able to get in, and stick on the table.

 

Let's keep an ear to the ground for Gahz. I get the feeling that if they fix his sheet to make it more in line with current expectations of big guys, greater daemons have a good chance of seeing some love. GW just didn't understand how squishy they'd be, then way over compensated with Iron Hand dreads. So their eye is at least on these big centerpiece models and making them work.