How Much Have GK Affected your Chaos lists?

[Prot]

So I'm looking at tournament lists.

 

Personally I play Black Legion, and Thousand Sons, but this question is bigger than that because I can see it causing a bigger issue. I'm looking at making a tournament list so it's obviously going to be made for 'all comers'.

 

A lot of my 'functional' lists come in the form of something with "Daemon" key word. Maulers, Venoms, Possessed, Greater Possessed, Disco Lords, Daemon Priinces, and summoned stuff (for me this is usually the Epitome),

 

So I don't know who plays in tournaments here, but since the GK are a real thing now, how is this affecting list writing? Are you going into tournaments just ignoring that factor? Or have you considered dropping the faction entirely for competitive play? 

 

It feels like too much to risk. It's just so strong against that key word, and already I felt Astra was ridiculously strong against Chaos keyword; I was back to using a lot of Disco lords, and even as I pulled away from possessed, this stuff really kind of stunted my Chaos projects, and motivations for the tournament season. How is your tournament Chaos looking?

[WarriorFish]

This is something I'm thinking about a lot recently - I have increasing numbers of Daemon keyword units (I'm apparently big on them currently) and have just got my Daemons proper ready for battle as allies also. Though I don't play tourney I am very interested to hear what others are doing and have experienced, as I have some concerns that the decks were stacked enough against Daemons by GK before

[Prot]

This is something I'm thinking about a lot recently - I have increasing numbers of Daemon keyword units (I'm apparently big on them currently) and have just got my Daemons proper ready for battle as allies also. Though I don't play tourney I am very interested to hear what others are doing and have experienced, as I have some concerns that the decks were stacked enough against Daemons by GK before

 

The funny thing is I had a GK player say to me... 'well you can just play that strat and bring a unit back'. But we/ I can't do that. I realized in looking at my "Chaos Space Marines" competitive lists, aside from troops, and Abaddon, almost my entire lists are susceptible to 4 flat mortal wounds. 

 

I don't think screening is an option anymore. The ability to shoot in the Psychic phase with stormbolter equipped units is going to make shielding nearly impossible. 

 

I'm really not sure if it's worth using these guys for the competitive season. I took Black Legion through the tournie season last year knowing I was the underdog, but this feels worse. Am I wrong in thinking this way?

[TrawlingCleaner]

I know that this is the CSM forum but playing my Death guard against GK really hurt. Flat 4 mortal wounds from 5 man 90 point units really put the hurt in on Bloat drones and Blight Hawlers. I think that GK counter demons harder than any army counts another in the game, which is a weird thing to say after the first chunk of 8th. While I don't think there will be a huge up-tick in GK players at tournaments, they definitely will have a showing  which may make a good few Chaos players hesitate.

[WarriorFish]

I've not read the GK parts of my PA book in detail yet, but it seems to me that GW have unintentionally gone heavy on the anti-daemon aspect which seems wrong. GK need help generally, not against daemons specifically and haven't poor daemons suffered enough in 8th?

 

I'm quite taken with my CSM Daemon units (good old Maulershrimp, and more to come) and would be loath to have to bench them because I play against GK regularly

[McElMcNinja]

I have been play testing and in the last week I have played 5 games all against Grey Knight (different players). They evaporate anything with a Daemon keyword in the psychic phase. Now their shooting was mostly S4 0/1 AP D1, so my T5 units faired pretty well and my T8 units barely got scratched. The walkers I dealt with first and waited for the teleporting units to over extend themselves.

As far as changing my list(s), I have rethought all the Daemons I had been taking. Now I'm down to a DG DP and a 2 man oblits unit. I know 3 players who have switched to GK, a Tau, an Ork, and an Iron Fist player. Not saying that is reflective of the tournament scene, but it make me believe I will be seeing more of them there.

If/when we get DR for Daemons or a way to increase what they have, I don't think they have the survivability to base an army around. Especially when GK can eliminate 2 units during the psychic phase and another 1 or 2 during shooting/combat.

[Snazzy]

I know that this is the CSM forum but playing my Death guard against GK really hurt. Flat 4 mortal wounds from 5 man 90 point units really put the hurt in on Bloat drones and Blight Hawlers. I think that GK counter demons harder than any army counts another in the game, which is a weird thing to say after the first chunk of 8th. While I don't think there will be a huge up-tick in GK players at tournaments, they definitely will have a showing  which may make a good few Chaos players hesitate.

 

I tend to view any Imperial faction that specializes in something to be designed with soup in mind.  GK specialize so heavily because they are supposed to be attractive as add ons to other Imperial armies.

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

I know that this is the CSM forum but playing my Death guard against GK really hurt. Flat 4 mortal wounds from 5 man 90 point units really put the hurt in on Bloat drones and Blight Hawlers. I think that GK counter demons harder than any army counts another in the game, which is a weird thing to say after the first chunk of 8th. While I don't think there will be a huge up-tick in GK players at tournaments, they definitely will have a showing which may make a good few Chaos players hesitate.

I tend to view any Imperial faction that specializes in something to be designed with soup in mind. GK specialize so heavily because they are supposed to be attractive as add ons to other Imperial armies.

I can see how that would have been the case at one point, earlier in the edition, with the inclusion of monofaction bonuses for all of the new imperium codexes I don't think they have this design philosophy anymore

[Closet Skeleton]

Haven't seen any GK at the two tournaments I went to post Ritual of the Damned.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Having played against them this weekend with TSons, I'll say that 3 things seem to matter quite a bit:

 

1. Keeping your Daemon units back until it's time to fight. Have other units that they need to Smite because of the targeting restriction. Blocks of Rubricae and Tzaangors worked fine for me to protect my 1 Daemon Prince. Cultists are wasted points against GK because they'll sneeze and wipe them out almost accidentally. Rhinos or Deep Strike could help. Obliterators  fared pretty well the one time I saw someone play them against new GK, as did CSM squads, funny enough, as long as they stuck to cover.

 

2. If they do not start in Tide of Escalation, denying Warp Shaping is a good thing. They only get one shot at that per turn and it might even be worth packing a tiny World Eaters detachment just to get the ability to negate it on a 4+.

 

3. Rubrics can trade fire with most GK squads and come out ahead because of the AP and their resilience against Damage 1 Storm Bolters, forcing them to shift to certain Tides or burn CP to get anything done. This type of thing, in combination with Yoked Automata, and Indomitable Foes, may be a reason why some Alpha Legion players are starting to bring Scarab Occult Terminators as a shield for their Possessed bombs. Thinking outside the box, Iron Warriors Rubrics could really stop them in their tracks, actually. Ignoring AP-1 (or even -2 depending on Warlord), shrugging wounds on 6's and rerolling shot count for Warpflamers while ignoring cover.

 

Additional Thought: Daemonsmith/Lords of Skulls lists can still blow them up good, provided that you have non-Daemon screening or distraction units to soak Smites.

Edited March 12, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Panzer]

I'm not a competetive player but let me throw this in the room and see what you can do with it: Contorted Epitome (Codex: Daemon unit).

It's a HQ choice, Character with <10 wounds, 2+ FnP against Mortal Wounds, can deny 2 powers with a +1 on those rolls, pretty fast and and also quite punchy.

[Prot]

Oh I love the mirror. I think it’s a valid option but your list has to suit it. The thing that worries me about using it in this manner is you are positioning it in such a way to absorb Smite however it will also be vulnerable to charges from weapons that could/should chew it up. 
 

I do use the contorted epitome but I haven’t lately...since the GK boost. 

[Panzer]

Oh yeah it definitely needs to be used in tandem with the rest of the army. It's not something you can brainlessly push into the enemy and expect it to work.

[techsoldaten]

@Prot - are your current lists posted anywhere? I'd like to have a look.

 

I had a bad day playing my Daemon Primarch list against Grey Knights before PA. Oddly, it seems a little simpler now, at least against Paladin bombs.

 

The last game I played, I was able to get charges off against Paladins with Magnus and Mortarion before my opponent brought on all his strikes. Wiped a 10-man unit plus an Apothecary. He tried to get me with smites afterwards, but, between Magnus, Mortarion, Ahriman and 3 Exhalted Sorcerers, I had enough denial to minimize the damage and stop some of his buffs. Once the Paladins were gone, the game was just a matter of killing off the survivors.

 

I also had a CSM Devastation Battery in the backfield. Daemon's Eye allowed a squad of Havocs to shoot lascannons while denying cover.

[Prot]

I don’t really post my lists. I post the odd batrep on my blog but truthfully I play quite often and I think as a result of that I change my lists quite frequently if I start to find them repetitive or simply taking a poor angle of play. 
 

right now I’ve done these retakes on my BL possessed lists. Yes I know just about everyone else does it better however one thing we do well is hit. And as a result my current lists are possessed centric however there is a strong secondary shooting element that I don’t see very often. It needs more play testing but it’s not bad.... still I fear the GK smite so I have a ton of cultists just in case. 

[techsoldaten]

I don’t really post my lists. I post the odd batrep on my blog but truthfully I play quite often and I think as a result of that I change my lists quite frequently if I start to find them repetitive or simply taking a poor angle of play. 

 

right now I’ve done these retakes on my BL possessed lists. Yes I know just about everyone else does it better however one thing we do well is hit. And as a result my current lists are possessed centric however there is a strong secondary shooting element that I don’t see very often. It needs more play testing but it’s not bad.... still I fear the GK smite so I have a ton of cultists just in case. 

Hey I play Black Legion too, I think you've seen my gunline list. Old reliable, I constantly tweak it as the meta changes.

 

The one thing no one else does as well as us is Abaddon's rerolls on Triple Whirlwind Scorpius tanks. PEQ and TEQ deleters.

 

Do you use Cult of the Damned on those Cultists? If so, do you use Field Commander for the rerolls to charge (and what do you use as a Warlord)? I have 80 of them painted, I don't get to use them much and see how they could shine against Grey Knights.