Starting a melee Legion question

[Zayneth]

So I don't have anything yet and was wondering what legions are focused at hitting hard in melee and reliably getting there? I like the dark angels specific models so they have that but are they a hard hitting Legion or more focused on "balance?" If I liked the world eaters at all id go there but they don't do it for me unfortunately =(

 

any suggestions for a melee focused "crunch" legion?

[Aztek]

How do you feel about Blood Angels? Pretty melee heavy, or can be at least.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

All of the Legions can do melee, since all of them use the same basic army list and roughly 90% of the same units.

 

Yes, some are 'better' at it, at first glance, but trust me a Praetor is a Praetor and it oftentimes makes little difference what Legion he hails from.

 

Some Legion special rules and or items  actually do provide (more or less) reliable advantages in close assault (WE, BA, WS, etc.), whilst the benefits of others are mostly cosmetic and / or situational at best.

Those of the Legions that are dubbed as shooty can provide a punch in melee as well for certain, it's just not done that often.

 

Dark Angels, with their most recent set of rules (from Retribution) can do both, receiving bonuses in melee under certain circumstances, but also a good amount of stuff on the shooting front. Right now, I would refrain from starting a First Legion force, since their rules and potential army composition might change drastically once book nine will be released.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Echoing a bit of what unknown said, there's some generic legion units that will always be powerhouses in melee. Praetors, chainfist terminators, leviathans, etc...

 

Most legions have a gimmicky melee weapon that can help elevate centurions and unit leaders into a more deadly threat at base initiative. Legatine axes, power scythes, chain glaives, power glaives, Phoenix spears, etc... But these weapons usually fall flat against a power fist in terms of sheer threat potential. What really makes a legion "melee" is their special rules, units and rites.

 

The world eaters are easily the most obvious melee legion. Everything is geared around increasing attacks and melee hit and wound rolls.

 

Night lords would be my choice for next best melee legion. A talent for murder transforms the math in such an extreme way, the chain glaive is quite good for consuls that don't get powerfist, terror assault is excellent in a variety of ways, both special units excel at melee, and more. They're very strong in melee and imo one of the best legions.

 

The rest (ec, ba, ws, etc) all have their merits, but I'd honestly say word bearers are a pretty strong melee force. It's a bit more work though.

[Scammel]

If you want an aesthetic that's not too far divorced from the DA, Imperial Fists can put up a decent showing with a Templar-heavy Sigismund list that blitzes through anything without a 2+ save (or, in Sigismund's case, anything that isn't a Primarch), but outside of Templar Brethren and Terminators with very sexy storm shields, the Fists are very much a balanced legion.

[Mogsam]

As someone else said, all legions do all things. You can have a siege world Eater Army, or a combat iron warriors army.

 

For devoted to combat, World Eaters are the clear winner, with night Lords and blood angels being good. Word Bearers are very combat focused if you want them to be, they have a love of rerolls, they can have gal Vorbak and they are good at leadership checks.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

As others already have said, all legions can be hard hitting in melee. Same goes for ranged combat too - the buffs from rules and special wargear / units are very useful but remember you can do anything with any legion.

 

Considering your requirements, hard hitting and fast, I wouldn't recommend Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Death Guard, Salamanders. Thousands Sons can be very good up close but they are very specific with all those psykers so you might not like it.

 

Ultramarines and Luna Wolves are flexible - they can be very competent in cc but their rules also/rather emphasize shooting. Dark Angels looks very flexible as well but I'd wait for their book to be published to decide upon that and picking them. Word Bearers' endgame is good morale ( and daemonic friends) which helps in combat but may not exactly be what you are looking for. On the other hand, Alpha Legion is [REDACTED].

 

This only leaves us with 6 legiones! So a quick recap on what they have to offer in my opinion:

 

- Emperor's Children are interesting as they are slightly faster than most and can win fights due to improved combat resolution. They generally strike before their opponent which is perfect because it lets you avoid a lot of casualties other melee legions would suffer. If you can flawlessly manouver your units on the battlefield they will win every fight.

 

- White Scars like going fast. They pretty much have to in order to benefit from their rules. They also like bikes and jetbikes. They are not the best in melee but they have some neat rules and weapons (like AP2 on every sarge on full initiative) and have shooting buffs as well. Do you like painting white though?

 

- Space Wolves I don't know very well. I think you won't like them very much since they seem to act somehow like World Eaters. But I might be wrong.

 

- Night Lords are, under certain conditions, the best legion you can have in melee. But it's all gone if you don't outnumber your enemy. They are also oriented at fear tactics which is however not very effective against other marines, and useless against some other legions. Unique units are so-so. We don't have some amazing close combat units that Ultramarines, Raven Guard or Blood Angels have but they can be used effectively nevertheless.

 

- Blood Angels might be your best bet. They are consistently better than their counterparts in melee and also love using jump packs for rapid movement. Like White Scars and Emperors Children you can have access to AP2 on initiative and their units and rite of war are pretty popular.

 

- Raven Guard has in my opinion the best chapter tactics with your units getting either infiltrate or furious charge. So your army is very 'fast' because it deploys closer to the enemy and jump pack units and teminators hit harder. RG has nice units and can also hold it's own in shooting phase. Though mind that in comparison to BA or NL, Furious charge may not look like a big buff.

 

IMO the most obvious candidate would be Blood Angels. They have everything you want and have nice rules/units/wargear. They are also consistent and seem to be easier to use than Night Lords or Emperor's children (don't hate me Angels...). If you prefered to be more flexible and also more proficient in ranged combat than I'd probably advise Raven Guard or White Scars.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Lautrec the Embraced

[rendingon1+]

I think you should rather focus on Legions background first and choose which you like the most. Every legion is capable of creating a melee list, however without attachment to/interest in "x" legion fluff...what's the point? I've seen many people who were asking for mecha/melee/shooty legion commendation and how their enthusiasm for the game evaporated really fast without fluff immersion. Also pure melee list is generally not a good idea.

Edited February 26, 2020 by rendingon1+

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's a good point. If you're not that big into the legion theme, then it's just going to be another list that gets boring after a while.

 

If you wanted a melee oriented list but really liked the iron warriors for example, you can still make some melee synergistic lists that otherwise can't be made.

 

In terms of reliability in delivery and overall efficacy it's going to be night lords though. With terror assault you get essentially infiltrating veterans with preferred enemy infantry, high chance to get a 4+ cover save in the open turn 1, dreadclaws (!!!) as dedicated transports, and improved run and initiative during night. Night lords also get teleporting terminators in general, one of three Jump pack equipped primarchs (who also gives his squad a 4+ cover save in the open and a 2+ otherwise), and sevatar who grants even more maneuvering options. Talent for murder is pretty easy to use, since you just shoot the stuff you're going to charge. Fear comes up a lot more than people think; two games ago I won when the BA assault squad failed their fear check against perturabo with one wound left.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Even though I agree with Mohawk on many points, I'll be a devil's advocate, despite my own allegiance. Just so no one starts thinking it's all fun and games.

Terror Assault makes you use what is essentially a less versatile veteran squad without access to real weapons - eg power weapons. Dreadclaws while fun are rather expensive for a squad equiped with chainswords, even worse when you consider their infiltrate goes to waste. The crippling disadventage is your only 1 heavy support, which makes using this RoW so much harder against mechanised foes. +1 to initiative sounds amazing until you realize it won't even last for 2 turns on average and it's not easy to make charges first turn. In the end, this Rite might not even have any advantages, cause night fighting may not occur at all. Fear won't come to play during many games and literally can't be used against 2 legions base and many primarchs and rules diminish its effectiveness even further.

 

If you want to pick a legion, be sure you actually like it. It'd suck to pick something because we wrote it's bloody brilliant but then turns out you don't agree. With most legions we can find both pros and cons in abundance. I'd say read some lore about those more melee oriented legions; pick a favourite or two, and then compare it with their rules. And go with it only if it appeals to you both in the books and on the table.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well the thing with terror squads is that they're only 25 points more than a base vet squad for pretty decent special rules; infiltrate lets them be a throwaway objective grabber squad. So while they're less versatile in options and can't be tailored to a specific focus, their base rules allow them to be more tactically versatile on the board without investment.

 

Dreadclaws are available to vets and tactical squads as well in terror assault, meaning you can get your tooled out vets in and ready for melee. The fast attack slot is the most underrated slot in the entire list; having dreadclaws be dedicated allows you to pile on the really heavy hitters like javelins and lightnings to fill in anti tank.

 

Because of getting full access to javelins, the 1 heavy support isn't a deal breaker for anti tank. The fire raptor and leviathan in pod are some of the most efficient, high impact, heavy support choices you can take. A leviathan dominating the back line turn 1 and almost always getting stealth and shroud is a giant pain. You could even just use terminators with combis and transponders.

 

+1 initiative is a coin flip going into turn 2. Yes, it's not guaranteed every turn 1, but on average you get it 5 out of every 6 games. Or you take curze and guarantee there's night turn 1 every game. Scoring terror marines and dedicated dreadclaws are still good advantages regardless.

 

Fear is circumstantial, but on average it works about every third round of combat. It's not something to really rely on, but it certainly swings a combat. Especially with a talent for murder and preferred enemy give you a 97% chance to hit. It's a freebie that sometimes won't apply to specific enemies.

[MrBadweed]

So i'd like to argue for the XIX, i have been playing with them a while and they epitomise the butterfly-bee thingy. An overview of their rules is available in the books and good guides can be found on 1d4chan and PeteHappen's blog, so i'l focus on how they run and feel to me, But before that, i can only echo what others have put forward, fimd a legion that you like first, then think crunch.

 

Whats interesting with the Ravens is their versatility, their mobility and that some of their units punch really HARD.

 

- Versatility and mobility : with infiltrate and fleet, we choose where and when to deploy, charge and move. We are deceptively FAST, and we pick our fights ( fleet). Our jump and termis hit HARD with furious charge. Yeah, it's less sexy than othrr legions, but our advantage over those is that we BRISTLE with special weapons. After all, why pay for a lascannon when your meltas start 12/18 inches from the baddies. This males tactical support squads very schmexy. As are machine killer vets with meltaguns WHEN YOU NEED THAT BOX TO BLOW UP NOW. Destroyers are nice too, rad and furious charge synergise well.

 

- Punchyness : CC is your jam, meet DARK FURY's, look at their weapons, yes they have mastercrafted, yes they reroll to wound, and yes, they rend, and yes, they are 30 something points, and yes they have +1 wound and Init on the charge, and yes they do have a 5+ cover on the turn they deep strike, and yes, you can add a vigilator to scout them and add +1 to their cover save. YES SIR. But they arent even the best thing around, no sir, meet MOR DEYTHAN, at firstvlook they seem like an upgunned recon squad ( bs5), now look at their rules, scout and shrouded, cool, FATAL STRIKE ? Hmmm, twinlinked and rend for a turn, far enuff, seems a bit wasted on plasma though, but look at that i get toarm each with a COMBI FLAMER, that means a twin linked twmplate, thus rerolling to wound, that means for a turn i hit automatically with flamer templates, reroll to wound and each 6 is AP2 ? YES SIR. For the coat of a slightly tooled up veteran squad, you get to ERASE units. I have gutted MEQ and TEQ squads worth way more points with these puppies, TURN 1, yes sir, infiltrate, scout and disembark lets you roast TURN 1.

 

I cannot stress enough how these sneaky crows are bad news for any unit they get in range of.

 

- Special snowflakes : Corax is basically Angron but faster, he will obliterate MEQ, be where your opponent does not want him to be and hes FAST and makes your dudes move like lightning ( automatic 6 to run). Hes pretty fragile to TEQ though, so stay sneaky. But Alvarex Maun is where the moneys at. He cheap ish for a praetor, hes armed with the basics, but he gives a lot of candy. Reroll to seize init, 18 inch deep strike bubble, shrouded, and some reserve shenanigans. He alowys your dudes to be where they need to be when they need to be, and his points cost allows you to grab more things rather than pay a lot for HQ. He synergies extremely well with our Decaptitaion strike ROW.

 

- Decapitation strike : reroll to start and deploy, preferred enemy on IC AND THE UNIT THEY JOIN ( yeah boi), drop pods for everyone and their mom. You need numbers ? This and maun will allow you to start 87ish percent of the time. Drop your pods, scout some deythans, drop those furys, aplha strike like the wrath of a pissed off god, and collect tears. Only 1 support slot ? Who cares, you have enough specials for 2 armies, and if you really need one, grab a leviathan and pod him in.

 

- Weaknesses : Dont mess up that alpha strike. Punch Hard, punch Fast, and mop up. Wiffing your strike lets the baddies punch you back, you dont want that. The wide availability of stealth makes up to it, and youl get night fighting if you are lucky. That being said 87 prcnt for firat turn puts the odds firmly in your favor. On the last y games, i went second once. Was painfull but atill clawed a win. Also, youl be close, almost uncomfortably so if you are facing full on CC legions.

 

Ok, technically the XIX aint full on CC, but lets put it like this, you punch better than non CC legions, and shoot better and stronger than almost everyone. Also your specials are bitching, Nykona shot fulgrim in the head and Corax bitch slapped lorgar at isstvaan, so bonus points for that.

 

The ravens are not about slamming your axe/glaive/spear/whatever in your opponents head after a glorious charge. It's about unleashing devastating power at point blank range in their backs, and stabbing the twitching corpses while making a point about tactics. If you really want to rend and tear we have tools for that to. We are here to make a point, that point is, why bring an axe to a plasmagun fight ? Why charge when you can sneak then charge ?

 

And, after all, what are deployment zones but loose guidelines ? What is this thing called deep strike deviation ? What do you mean start 2nd ?

 

Welcome to the XIXth.