So... Non Paladin bombs/making use of the dreads?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So what lists are people finding work that are not focussed around Palladin bombs? In particular dread heavy lists, maybe even ones using rhinos and land raiders as well maybe?

 

In particular what are people doing for Anti tank other then praying with storm bolters?

Edited February 26, 2020 by Rune Priest Ridcully

[Tralador]

Smite and psycannons. Massed smite will remove even knights in MSU lists and 4 shot str 7/8 guns put in work as well. If all else fails, str 5 Halberds with hammerhand can crack them too.

[Captain Coolpants]

Psycannons can be made strength 9 with our new rules. Costs a few cp but that with smite is the best option for us.

 

Dreadnoughts still aren't great really. And a landraider will get ignored if empty, and focused on if full.

I think a squad of paladins with transhuman if far more survivable too.

[Seizeman]

The best anti-tank unit we have is (surprise, surprise), paladins, with bolters. Ten paladins with bolters, with psybolt ammunition and tide of convergence (and some form of reroll, ideally) will kill pretty much any vehicle, including those with T8 (except for wave serpents and knights, of course).

 

In practice, though, against armies that hide shooty vehicles behind screens ( like space marines or imperial guard), you simply ignore them. It's not worth to spend a lot of resources to kill a vehicle that's well protected, specially when they have 4-5 more of them, that's just playing their game. Just focus on their scoring units and win the points game. They can't win just by killing stuff, and your paladins are very tough to kill anyway.

 

Against armies that spam a lot of vehicles, like some eldar and dark eldar lists that don't have much screening, you can just pick them one by one with the aforementioned bolter combo and smite spamming and force them to come to you. In the case of weak vehicles like dark eldar ones, just regular bolter fire kills them eventually.

 

And yes, dreadnoughts are awful. Their firepower is ridiculous compared to units in real shooty armies and are absurdly expensive, specially for how fragile they are.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Seizeman

[Corvus Fortis]

The only use of land raider I can think of is a crusader with bunch of strike squads and a Brotherhood Champion. Gate it turn 1 and support reserves on turn 2. Just a fun thing to play with. I doubt, that anything can beat a paladin bomb competitvely. Only MSU smite/psycannon spam can get close, but it is less flexible and more dependant on match-up.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Well this is a tad depressing, how have we ended up with less options then the Daemonhunters codex lol.
With MSU/Purgatator squads, how do people get them to survive turn one without using transports?

Quite sad it seems we are down to one build even with all the ritual of the damned stuff.

[Seizeman]

The best (only) way to get the PA units to survive is to keep them in reserves.

[Corvus Fortis]

Quite sad it seems we are down to one build even with all the ritual of the damned stuff.

 

 

if you are going to a friendly game, you have a lot of stuff to experiment with. But for tournaments having 1-2 competitive builds for a faction is more than ok. When you open a GT list for Iron Hands or Raven guard you already know that the former will have a Leviathan, Chaplain dread, probably several flyers and the later contaih 18 Centurions. Same is true for GK. 1-2 competitive builds and a few deviations. 

 

Want fun yet strong stuff? Try purgators in rhinos, purifier bomb, GMNDKs and other things that are ok when you play against similar sub-optimal lists. Our situation has been improved greatly. We didn't have any competitive builds before (well, there was a single one with like 60% GK but that's it and it wasn't too popular) and to have a interesting friendly game we had to bring our most powerful stuff. 

[Seizeman]

There's always going to be an optimal build/strategy, not only in 40k but in every game, and that's what you are going to see the most in tournaments, it's the nature of competitive play. Grey knights are not particularly limited in that regard, specially when we consider our codex has very few entries to begin with (a single troops and fast attack choice, for example).

 

GMNDK are pretty good, as are interceptors. Purgators and dreadnoughts are mediocre, but playable. Even characters like ancients and chaplains, while subopimal, are decent enough that you can enjoy them in a friendly game and still have a fair game (in fact, taking the optimal double paladin list to a friendly game would be a bit abusive).

 

The maing thing in competitive lists is that once you take the mandatory double paladins, the six strikes and the necessary character support, you don't have any spare points for extra stuff. If competitive lists were 2500 points, you'd probable see GMNDKS and interceptors being played.

[Tralador]

MSU Strikes/Interceptors/Purgators win games and hit harder than Paladins. People are rock hard for paladins right now, but there is just too much firepower dedicated to exactly their profile. I’m not down on anyone playing that way, but anyone saying that’s “the only competitive choice” is incorrect.

[Corvus Fortis]

Meanwhile, they nerfed Dreadnoughts. Now the Duty Eternal only reduces damage by 1. Another reason to go full infantry.

[Seizeman]

The best thing about paladins, precisely, is that there is NOT much firepower dedicated to their profile. Most ranged weapons are either damage 2, to kill primaris, or damage d6, to kill vehicles, and neither does well against paladins. Two damage attacks become, effectively, 1.5 wound attacks on paladins, and d6dmg has a 2/6 chance of not killing a paladin, and a 3/6 chance of wasting damage, so it's not very efficient either, and, on top of that, they are basically inmune to small arms fire, negating a lot of units from certain armies.

 

Furthermore, they have ideal stratagems and buffs for every type of damage. Redoubtable defense absolutely screw 2D attacks (and makes 1d6 weapons need a 4+ to kill), transhuman resilience and sanctuary reduce inmensely heavy weapon (lascannons and similar) damage, and armoured resilience makes high rate of fire + low damage weapons useless.

 

For PA to deal more damage than paladins, they have to be, first of all, alive, which is a difficult task to accomplish. Any army with decent shooting can destroy power armour with easy, which could be okay if our models costed 10-12 points, but they cost 17+ each. Also, those units will have to walk the board for 2-3 turns before they can do any meaningful damage, giving the opponent plenty of time to kill them.

 

The best way to solve that is by deep striking them close to the enemy(with escalation, usually) so they can deal enough damage in one turn to justify their points even if most of them die. That's the other big advantage of the paladin list. It allow you to keep all your strike squads in reserve so they don't die and they are really good at clearing screens, so your PA guys can deep strike in a good enough position to deal damage and capture objectives, etc, and they can't do that if the opponent has good screening.

 

Also, PA units don't necessarily hit harder than paladins. Two interceptors cost almost as much as a single paladin. They have twice the bolters, but those have half the effective range (paladins can always rapid fire), so they are not much better in that aspect. In melee, the interceptors have, if they have made/received a charge, 2 attacks each and the paladin has 4, so it's the same, and the paladin is actually better if there's been no charges. A minimum size squad of interceptors is 100 points, while a minimum squad of paladins is 132, so interceptors can, potentially, cast 1/3 more smites for the same price. The paladins have access to two very good damage stratagems and can have twice as many heavy weapons (if that's what you want to use). The paladins, of course, get an extra wound and a better save, wich means that they get to do damage more reliably. If those two intercessors suffer a wound, their firepower and melee damage are cut in half, if they suffer two, they do nothing, but if the paladin suffers one or two wounds, he fights just as well.

 

So yes, PA do a little bit more damage in an ideal scenario, but not much in actuality. Strikes are good enough because of their cost, but not purgators or interceptors. Really, the biggest benefit of deep striking strike squads is not dealing amazing damage, but being able to cover the board and hold objectives/kill stragglers, and filling battalions so you have those +10 CP to feed your paladins.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Seizeman

[Skywrath]

With the Dreadnought nerf, I wonder whether this opens the doors (pun not intended) for other units such as the gunship or the land raider. While I do not use the Duty Eternal Stratagem, having a full unit GK army seems a tad dull. You could almost argue that the nerfs to the doctrines is almost an invitation to have vehicles in an army. Would I be correct in assuming that?

[Seizeman]

GK dreadnoughts were not nerfed in any relevant way. It was the combination of duty eternal, relics and 13+ wound dreadnoughts that was the problem. Duty eternal wasn't amazing anyway on 8W dreads, so they are just as mediocre as they were. 

 

Actually, it's the rest of our vehicles that were nerfed, as they get no benefit from tides anymore. Dreadnoughts were already better than the rest of our vehicles, and now they are even more so. So it's really the opposite, you have a better incentive to take dreadnoughts over stormravens and land raiders than before, and they are still overcosted deathtraps.

 

Transports in general are not good in a grey knight army because you already have deep strike, gate and edict imperator, so you are not taking full advantage of them, and are very unreliable compared to our other delivery methods. Cheap transports for PA squads would be nice, but rhinos do nothing and razorbacks are very inefficient since they got their points cost increased.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I mean I like using Dreandoughts, I have 5 for my Grey knights so have been thinking of doing a march of the ancients theme with them, not sure it would work/be abel to have more the one battalion though at the points level it would be for.

[The Woodsman]

I was running a mech-heavy-ish list prior to Ritual of the Damned, with some success, and it has done well post-PA as well, though I did tweak it a little to get the most out of the changes. The idea was that Paladins were expensive for what they did and got removed quite easily, usually before they had actually made their worth. At the moment the list looks like this:

 

Batallion:

 

Voldus

Chaplain

 

3x 5-man Strike Squad

 

10 Interceptors

 

Spearhead:

 

Techmarine

 

2x Land Raider

5-Man Purgation Squad (4 Psycannon)

 

Supreme Command:

 

2x GMDK (Sword, Psycannon/Psilencer)

Brother Captain

 

The main tactic is to castle up with the tanks and purgators around the characters, using litanies and buffs to get the most out of shooting and the Tide  of Convergence. One GMDK Gates up with the Interceptors for a Turn 1 hammer-blow, using Psybolt Ammo on the Interceptors, and Psychic Onslaught on either the Purgators of the GMDK. The other GMDK walks up the board, hopefully getting in range, and using Edict Imperator to get a little closer for Turn 2. Astral Aim can be used either on a Land Raider or the Purgators. 

 

The idea is to over-saturate the opponent with high-toughness/armour/invul targets while switching between the TIdes of Convergence and Escalation for damage output. It works well in ITC, giving up very little kills per turn, while having some mobility/deep striking to secure objectives. I do realise it probably comes apart against Imperial Fists, but hopefully between T8 tanks and a good ammount of D2 weapons, I could get through those Centurions before they completely annihilate me. 

 

Moving forwards, however, due to GMDKs being so swingy (in my opinion anyway) I'm looking at switching them out for a 10-man Paladin Squad and 5 extra Interceptors (for 3x5). The Brother Captain would also need to go. 

 

To cut a long (sorry) story short, I do think there is potential for builds other than the double Paladin Bomb. Grey Knight Characters are still very good at what they do, and I think Interceptor Spam can be viable as well. I'd like to evetually try something built around 30 Interceptors and 3 GMDKs - I'm not sure what would best support that though. Venerable Dreadnoughts can be ok, especially since they get a Smite (or other power) per turn, but they're pretty easy to get rid of, especially in a world of Space Marines. 

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So here is what I'm thinking at 1600pts:

Battallion:

Grand master with psycannon and nemesis force halberd, Chaplain, one strike squad 6 strong with incinerator and nemesis hammer on the justicar, 6 strong with just halberds and swords, 5 strong with incinerator, 6 interceptors including incinerator.

Spear head:
Brotherhood champion, ven dread with missile launcher and twin lascannons, land raider, land raider redeemer with multi melta, 5 strong purgators with 4 psycannons.
Not entirely sure on the warlord traits tbh, and thinking of swapping the bro champ for a librarian.
I'm stuck between tryign to figure out to use Grey knights or EC for an event where hihglander is an optional rule, if I don't go for it I'm tempted to see just how many dread/ven dreads I can fit in maybe, or drop the redeemer for a few more.

[ThatOneMarshal]

I mean I like using Dreandoughts, I have 5 for my Grey knights so have been thinking of doing a march of the ancients theme with them, not sure it would work/be abel to have more the one battalion though at the points level it would be for.

What about draigo for rerolls and then the dreadnoughts? Grab a stack of three and 2 venerables and then run up the board. Grab some librarians and techmarines for flavor.

[Gaz1858]

Deployed on table

 

Land Raider (hidden if possible or as far back as it can be otherwise) with a Purgation Squad and Interceptor Squad

Rhino (hidden if possible or as far back as it can be otherwise) with a purgation squad and Interceptor Squad

Libby and 2 chaplains deployed hidden behind Raider

 

I play ITC so the opponent can generally only use its non LOS shooting to take out Raider or Rhino but at most thats all their gonna get, so 1 kill. My return fire has an Astral aimed Raider with Power and Guidance Litanies on it. If I feel the purgation squad would be better shooting they will have Focus and Projection Litanies in addition to Astral Aim. I may Gate a Purgation squad up to get a kill if I see an worthy opening, or Shunt an Interceptor squad with Vortex, or disembark Interceptors 3"+12" move+base size to get any units which have ventured too close.

 

In Deep Strike

6 x 5 man Strike Squads

1 x 5 man interceptor squad

1 x 10 man Purifier Squad

1 x Character with Inner Fire

 

All of my Interceptors and Strikes have a single Psycannon. The purgation squads are 4 Psycannons and 4 Psilencers. 

 

I have played 8 games with new GK and lost 1. This is my most recent list which ive used twice and tabled both Tau and Eldar. 

 

The army is incredibly mobile, resilient until the PAGK come down and then it comes down to tactics and threat neutralisation so that the PAGK do not get swept away. I have found opponents just cannot resist all the smites, Vortex and Inner Fire that GK can pour down on them. 

 

If anyone is confused about the Purifiers theyre my version of the Paladin Bomb lol. They all have staves so for 1CP they get a 4++ and Fearless, Sanctuary for a 3++ and when in combat they have a 2++. For 170 points they put out the same Firepower as Paladins (10 stormbolters) and give me 270 points minimum to spend on other stuff. Thats more than 3 PAGK squads with a psycannon in each on top of the 10 Purifiers for the same price as the Paladins.