Berserker Helmets

[Tyriks]

From a fluff point of view, are berzerker helmets a Khorne thing or a World Eaters thing? This seems like maybe there isn't actually an answer for it. AoS has a lot of similar helmets for Khorne (implying it's a Khorne thing) but the HH World Eater helmets are also very similar (implying its their thing). I'm looking to convert some berserkers, and I'm not sure I want the helmets, since my warband isn't World Eaters. But I don't want to confuse opponents either, and the helmet is easily associated with the unit.

[ranulf the revenant]

Might be that the Pre-Heresy Worl Eaters were unconsciously already influenced by Khorne being violent gladiators and such. So the Khorne-element already manifested itself in the helmets somehow. But if you don't like those helmets, then you shouldn't have to use them either. If all your guys are running around with chain axes and look considerably brutal, there should be no misunderstanding possible :).

[Marshal Loss]

In 40k it is very much a World Eater thing. The distinctive horns on World Eater helmets are a tradition derived from Angron's gladiatorial past (the caedere remissum), worn by unstable lunatics. You can easily justify doing your Berzerkers with or without the bunny ear helmets; either they wear them because that style has become synonymous with the disparate cult warriors of the blood god even though they're not World Eaters, or they wear different helmets because they don't see themselves as being connected with the World Eaters. Or maybe they're just too crazy to care about their outfit.

 

TLDR you can definitely do Berzerkers sans bunny ears without confusing your opponent, so long as their wargear is obvious and they are differentiated visually from the "normal" marines in your force.

[Tyriks]

I'm considering buying a haul of AoS Chaos Warrior helmets for them, so they still look different (plus wargear differences) but don't look like World Eaters.  Thanks for the help!

[Gederas]

Yeah, the bunny helms in 40k seem to be originally a World Eater thing, but it seems to have been a subtle Khorne influence (as the Bloodbound in AoS also makes use of them, so it might just be a Khornate thing in general).

 

I've done a way of emulating it without using the helmets exactly with my Night Lords:

 

Gives the silhouette of the caedere remissum, but without actually using them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Non-WE Berzerkers wear them too, look at the Hounds of Abaddon art in the codex. They started as a Legion thing based on Angron's gladiatorial past, but they're very much a Khorne thing in general now.

[MegaVolt87]

I thought they were a censure mark for WE in 30k and those that had them were looked down upon, later they were for veterans and more accepted, then as we know WE now everyone has them. 

[Doom Herald]

Non-WE Berzerkers wear them too, look at the Hounds of Abaddon art in the codex. They started as a Legion thing based on Angron's gladiatorial past, but they're very much a Khorne thing in general now.

Is that to say that they can or they have to? Black Legion is an oddity among Legions anyway in that they incorporate so many other legions into their own and as a result certain customs more frequently come with them. There really isn't a uniform for being a Khorne Berzerker written anywhere is there? I could see them just as easily wanting to go bare-headed into battle and I do believe the Berzerker kit has multiple bare heads for Berzerkers. Also, I don't think a current or prospective Berzerker would be turned down by The Blood God or by the "nails" because they dont have the right helmet.

 

If they look sufficiently Khornate I dont think there would be a big problem with modeling with different helmets. You're probably going to be running several chainaxes with them anyway, which is a decent give away.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Lord_Caerolion]

Non-WE Berzerkers wear them too, look at the Hounds of Abaddon art in the codex. They started as a Legion thing based on Angron's gladiatorial past, but they're very much a Khorne thing in general now.

 

While that's true, keep in mind that the Black Legion subfactions assumes that all the Tzeentch members are ex-Thousand Sons, and all Slaanesh members are ex-Emperors Children (all Children of Torment are considered by the Emperors Children to be traitors to Fulgrim, etc). It wouldn't surprise me if there's an element of "all Black Legion Berserkers are ex-World Eaters".

[ranulf the revenant]

Yeah, the bunny helms in 40k seem to be originally a World Eater thing, but it seems to have been a subtle Khorne influence (as the Bloodbound in AoS also makes use of them, so it might just be a Khornate thing in general).

 

I think technically speaking the AoS Bloodbound wearing Bunny helmet doesn't really bolster the argument, because there is no continuity between 40k and AoS

[Lord_Caerolion]

The gods are the same though, so showing a design element as being common for followers of the same god in both systems shows that it's not a subfaction thing, but a god thing. Bright, garish colours are a stylistic theme for both Emperors Children in 40k, and the Hedonites of Slaanesh in AoS, but you wouldn't say that that only proves that that theme is only a coincidence that both factions have it, and not that it's a theme for the god itself.

[ranulf the revenant]

Yes, I mean sure... it's not a coincidence to us. Because we probably always take the similiarities of the universes into account. But if you'd strictly follow the logic of the universes themselves, then it is, indeed, just a coincidence. Actually, Slannesh is a perfect example for this. Obvisously 40k-Slannesh and AoS/Fantasy-Slannesh are "basically" the same idea. But 40k Slannesh has a different backstory, because he came into existence through the excesses of the Eldar while Fantasy-Slannesh is just kind of "there", without a backstory I know of.
But yeah, I realise I'm getting into some kind of "fluff-lawywering" here, which is probably rather futile

Edited February 27, 2020 by ranulf the revenant

[Lord_Caerolion]

But in both instances, the design element wasn't present pre-corruption, and just happen to start occurring post-corruption in both universes. We can accept "being sick" as a Nurgle design theme, alongside bulky, rusted armour, why not this?

[ranulf the revenant]

I think I'd just make a difference between a 'design theme' (I completely agree with you, there are elements in design which are just more or less the same between universes) and explanation within the fluff. That's the whole point. OP asked explicitly for a characterisation based on fluff, that's why I stressed it.
I don't want to irritate anyone with this, and I think I'll just stop here ;).

[RobWrath]

But in both instances, the design element wasn't present pre-corruption, and just happen to start occurring post-corruption in both universes. We can accept "being sick" as a Nurgle design theme, alongside bulky, rusted armour, why not this?

 

I've got a complete mix on my Berserkers. It's not something I really worry about.

I always imagined the legions looking a bit of a hodgepodge by the 41st Millenium.

 

By the way, I've always wondered about the reference in your email footer to Horus landing on the moon - what's that about?

[Lord_Caerolion]

There was a discussion several years ago now about the First Heretic, and what planets the Primarchs landed on. Horus landed on Cthonia, of course, which was described as looking like Luna, but someone thought that meant he landed on Luna. There was a brief argument about it, with me saying that you don’t describe things as looking like itself, eg “the plants looked plant-like”, so if something is described as looking “like Luna” it means it isn’t Luna. Culminated in my signature quote.

[Spinsanity]

That Games Workshop chose to give similar looks to Khorne ‘zerkers in both 40k and fantasy doesn’t mean it has to be a god thing, no.

 

Eldar and Aelves wear very similar garments, Orks and Orruks too. It’s just a continuity and style thing.

 

However the WE did recolor their armour red as a tribute to Khorne...

[Closet Skeleton]

Khorne berserkers are based on World Eaters surgeries even if the berserkers in question aren't WE they're still in a WE tradition so they have the helmets. Its like how the terror tactics Raptors use isn't a Night Lords specific thing but Raptors originated in that legion and derive some of their character from that background.

 

FW's WE veteran helmets are not Khorne Berzerker helmets, they're an uncorropted design that's supposed to be a predecessor to the Berzerker helmets.

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/World-Eaters-Legion-MKII-Upgrade-Set-Veteran-Heads

 

Traditionally in 40k WE were considered a 'shattered legion' and it was normal to see just one unit of Khorne Berzerkers in WE colours in any old warband and fully berzerker khornate warbands might not identify themselves as world eaters at all. 41st millenium WE aren't united by traditions other than being khorne and smashing stuff.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Closet Skeleton