New to 8th - I have N00b questions

[ChaplainNemiel]

Hey team. I am looking to get back into the hobby but my little experience with 7th and rare exposure to 8th means that I am lacking in the knowledge department...Knowledge is power as we know.

 

I hope this thread is OK for me to bring up questions that come to mind. Some of them are basic 40k rules questions and not entirely DA specific. I've only ever played DA so I feel most at home on the rock. 

 

First questions:

 

1. Are speeders always suggested to take in squads? When I last played i thought it was better to have each as a separate single unit so that they don't suffer spill over from wounds. I'm seeing most people are taking them in squads now. 

 

2. Is the Darkshroud still worth the points? This was always an auto include for me and it's really iconic. That said is the -1 to hit worth it for the points?

 

3. Is there any value in the RW grenade launcher? one of my black knights is modeled with it but I'm not sure if it still has any value.

 

4. Split fire? Is this still relevant? and how is it working now for models with different/multiple weapon profiles...Can my Typhoon speeder fire its heavy bolter at one target while the missiles shoot another?

 

Can dreadnoughts fire it's different armaments at different targets (twin AC at 1 while ML fires at another)...Also what about Termies firing their stormbolter and CML? 

 

5. Nephilim - twin LC or AMB? 

 

6. Impeccable Mobility - this is MODELS within 6' of the warlord trait carrier not units? 

 

I thought I had way more but that's all that came to mind. I actually went to a local shop to buy some of the recent books and to my surprise they didn't have any available. 

 

 

[Skywrath]

Hey team. I am looking to get back into the hobby but my little experience with 7th and rare exposure to 8th means that I am lacking in the knowledge department...Knowledge is power as we know.

 

I hope this thread is OK for me to bring up questions that come to mind. Some of them are basic 40k rules questions and not entirely DA specific. I've only ever played DA so I feel most at home on the rock. 

 

First questions:

 

1. Are speeders always suggested to take in squads? When I last played i thought it was better to have each as a separate single unit so that they don't suffer spill over from wounds. I'm seeing most people are taking them in squads now. 

 

2. Is the Darkshroud still worth the points? This was always an auto include for me and it's really iconic. That said is the -1 to hit worth it for the points?

 

3. Is there any value in the RW grenade launcher? one of my black knights is modeled with it but I'm not sure if it still has any value.

 

4. Split fire? Is this still relevant? and how is it working now for models with different/multiple weapon profiles...Can my Typhoon speeder fire its heavy bolter at one target while the missiles shoot another?

 

Can dreadnoughts fire it's different armaments at different targets (twin AC at 1 while ML fires at another)...Also what about Termies firing their stormbolter and CML? 

 

5. Nephilim - twin LC or AMB? 

 

6. Impeccable Mobility - this is MODELS within 6' of the warlord trait carrier not units? 

 

I thought I had way more but that's all that came to mind. I actually went to a local shop to buy some of the recent books and to my surprise they didn't have any available. 

 

First of all, welcome to the Rock. 

 

As someone who is also relatively new to the hobby, I believe I can answer some of those questions (at least on the surface level). 

 

1. Don't really play ravenwing - can't answer that one.

 

2. Yes, yes it is. Having a squad of hellblasters or something of that calibre (pun not inteded) is really noticeable. Ironically, my army is heading in a different direction, so I don't have space to fit it in.

 

3. See #1, but having a quick look over the stat sheet, I do believe there are better options.

 

4. Very relevant. Let's assume my Deathwing Terminator Squad of 5, was all equipped with stormbolters, and one of them had a cyclone missile launcher. The stormbolters have 2 attacks (4 if you have rapid fire) and the cyclone missile launcher has 2. So the terminators have a total of 8 shots (16 if rapid fire), while the launcher has 2. You can allocate that in any way you want, between any units.

 

5. See #4. 

 

6. Nephilim - See #1. Probably TL though.

 

7. Not sure what you mean by that, however it applies to all units within 6 inches. If there was something special about this, then I do believe it would have been mentioned.

[tychobi]

1. Don't matter wounds don't "spill". Rule of 3 means you can only use a data slate 3 times in your army so the advantage to units us you can take more total. Technically its a suggestion not a rule but it is standard for competative play. Also 20" move is sweet.

2. Yep

3. Dunno

4. Splitfire is universal.

5. Personal. Depends on rest of list.

6. Wording matters. Model means model. Unit means unit.

[ValourousHeart]

1. Speeders in Squadrons - The difference now is efficient use of limited resources.  Command points and Auras are generally the most limited aspects of your army, so maximizing there application is key.  The stratagem for free Jink without having to give up shooting is better when used vs a larger squad.  If you run them as singles, as soon as you spend that 1 CP, your opponent will switch to the next single speeder and you are screwed.

 

Similar situation with auras.  Most auras just require 1 model from the unit to be in range.

 

2. It is still an iconic unit.  If you want an iconic unit, take one.  But it's over all utility is starting to wan.  You will always be advancing with it, so save the points on any upgrades.

 

4. Split Fire actually allows you to fire one Storm Bolter at 4 different units.  Yes it is still relevant.  But you are better off wiping out a unit than you are at spreading your damage around.

 

5. Nephilim - Depends on the rest of your list and what you are facing.  It isn't like before where you would always take a MM on an attack bike.  The LC is great versus high T, good save, multi-wound units.  AMB is better vs units of infantry.

 

That said, the 3 assault canons on one of my speeder squadrons do more damage on average than the 4 TML in the other squadron.  So higher strength, better AP, and Damage D6 isn't always better than forcing your opponent to roll saves.

 

6. Impeccable Mobility - I'm pretty sure that one is UNITS.

[Fierce Bear]

"Impeccable Mobility - I'm pretty sure that one is UNITS"

 

I looked immediately in RotD book the on reading this... It is MODELs so co-ord movement and positioning is really important!

 

 

Edit: I might as well try and add to the feedback:

 

1. Yes to squads, 20" move and maxes buffs and cp use

 

2.Is the Darkshroud still worth the points? it isn't first on the list but it still disrupts other lists... I think it will be found running after RW Flyers making them survive longer... -2 to hit for a flyer wing helps, I think it should have always had double AC/HB, compared to the LSV it's over costed by at least 25pts now?

 

3. Is there any value in the RW grenade launcher? Situational, I have them on my RW biker characters rather than the black Knights...

 

4. Split fire? Is this still relevant? Yep you can do it, it rarely works how you expect

Edited February 27, 2020 by Fierce Bear

[ChaplainNemiel]

This is great brothers! 

 

absolutely love the feedback. 

 

Now I have a really odd question. When I was most active, i found I was just not a good RW player. I was always more heavy with DW but I typically liked to do combined all three wings with Azrael as my warlord (Remember the days when we could take DW/RW units as troops?! - Wish our HQ could still do that)

 

I found my RW bikes would ALWAYS get blasted off the board within 2 turns usually. They were never really intending to be my winners - the goal was to zip up the board to deliver the DW or distract the opponent so my tacticals could get into position. My games were almost always won by Azrael and the tacticals and devastators. I no longer have my robed tacs and devs (see my painting thread for the tragic story). 

 

Right now my army is really going to be based on some black knights, shooty DW and DW knights, with typhoon speeders, dreads and my 1 nephilim. 

 

Of course I want my black knights to survive as much as possible but I would like to have them (or sammy) deliver my termies safely within a threatening range.

What is your advice on how to start the game with my RW.

 

I will be using 6 black knights, most likely Sammy on corvex, 3 typhoon speeders, Nephilim and Dark Shroud backed up by maybe 2  mortis dreads. I would then my delivering Belial, 7sh knights and 10 shooty terms w/ ancient 

 

Is that RW element strong enough to survive first turn shooting to deploy a DW assault in turn 2? how should I move them up the board. Please elaborate on all movement + advance + strategems that are suggested. 

 

Using a Vanguard and Outrider detachment, I will probably only have 5 CP  to burn which I know is stretching it to the limit. 

[ValourousHeart]

The way I got good with RW was I built a 500 and 1000 point list with them based off of the old RW Attack Squadron.

6 bikes, 1 attack bike and 1 speeder or double that for 1000 points.

 

Small 500 and 1000 point games are fast, meaning you can get in 2 in the time it takes you to play one 1500 or 2000 point game.

Play a dozen or 30 games with that list.

I'd recommend that for anyone starting a new army

 

Keep the list small and wait on making change.

Don't rush off right after a loss and change your list.

Take the same list verse the same opponent, don't tell them to take the same list, but be ready if they do.

Your second time facing that list, you will do better than the first time, and the third time you'll do even better.

 

Eventually you'll get to the point were you know your "Sub-par" list better than your opponent knows their net list.

And at that point your "Sub-par" list will have gained the experienced quality and will be able to punch above its weight.

 

At this learning stage, don't worry about stratagems.

Yes I know the jink and targeting stratagems are great, but you want the games to be fast.

You will learn more getting through these games fast than you will by dragging these game out.

You lose because of your mistakes, not because of what you do right... so you don't want to reward yourself for making mistakes,

Focus on getting your units to work with their native skills and command re-roll.

Once you start getting consistent wins with only using Command re-roll, then that will be the time to add in your DW elements and your stratagems. 

Doing that will get you will get you to smash face consistently.

[tychobi]

I think your follow up question is hard to answer due to unknown quantities of terrain and artillery in your local meta. Can it all die? Sure. Not often especially if you use a healthy amount of LOS blocking terrain.

 

ValorousHeart is right. Knowledge born of experience is the most effective and repeatable way to win at warhammer. You learn how to protect your strength and dial in target priority. You learn when to play for which victory points and how to anticipate your opponents plays. You make less and less mistakes.

 

As to my over all opinion of you list? Ill be candid. I fear for melee footsloggers getting outmaneuvered and left out of the main fight. If you can strike something juicy turn 2 great. Another issue for you is getting alpha struck. You have no screen, no chaff. Warptimed chaos gribblies, smash captains, da jumpin orks, and other early chargers will do some serious harm without some padding. 15 bolter scouts would generate some much needed cp and give you some tactical flexibility.

[ChaplainNemiel]

It's just a shame that all my tacticals got lost. I used to always run at least 2x10 squads of tacs in rhino's...

 

I'm really into my "all robed" theme do you think 3x5 tacticals would be decent for chaf? 

Not sure if you want to do any heavy or special weapons - or just bolters. 

[tychobi]

Tacs can work ok. Bare bones is best in my opinion. Loosing the option to forward deploy is a sore loss and makes it harder to buffer against the really speedy stuff. And for not doing their job as well they cost more Edited March 1, 2020 by tychobi

[Volt]

IMO the best way to think of Ravenwing is to think of them like Primaris but with a massive move and even more dakka behind them, along with packing as much plasma as you can onto them on a platform. Due to the attacks buff they can also hold their own in melee against either T3 units or T4 with a crummy save (such as Orks) not a half bad idea, especially in the assault phase. You shouldn't be worried about taking fire on them as they're actually fairly tanky units to even massed fire, and if you like to use Urban Assault rules (which I highly recommend, vanilla 40k is trash), sticking them in obscuring terrain gives them a -1 to hit on top of a 4++ from jinking. It also allows them to close very fast on troops so you needn't worry about -1's to hit in urban assault.

[ChaplainNemiel]

Hey Bruvas...

I have a question about chaplains. Since finishing up my DW IC and now finally getting some solid work done on Asmodai...I'm wondering, how do we use them effectively?

I'd love to use Asmodai for the buffs but I don't really know where to place him in a a DW heavy army. 
 

The logical idea for me is using my IC in terminator armour to deep strike with knights and shooty squads, but if I'm not mistaken - I won't be able to pull those +2 inch charge litanies off immediately on turn 2 DS? or how does it work - please explain. 

 

With Asmodai, I love the model but in a mostly DW army or mixed wing - the chaplains, especially Asmodai NEED to get up front with the knights, is he best used in a LRC? 

 

[UtariOnzo]

Correct, terminator chaplains can’t use their litanies on the turn they drop due to the turn sequence. The best use of chaplains is with jump packs and Mantra of Stength to act as Smash Captains. Our chaplains can also take thunderhammers which codex:sm ones can’t! You can also combine this with the Deathwing Key relic to get and additonal +1 strength and +1 attack on your interrogator chaplain, making him a very scarily efficient unit for dealing with large monsters

Other uses could be for buffing shooty units with our unique litany.

 

Using a Land Raider with Asmodai/Termie Chaplain is certainly another option

Edited April 17, 2020 by UtariOnzo

[ChaplainNemiel]

Correct, terminator chaplains can’t use their litanies on the turn they drop due to the turn sequence. The best use of chaplains is with jump packs and Mantra of Stength to act as Smash Captains. Our chaplains can also take thunderhammers which codex:sm ones can’t! You can also combine this with the Deathwing Key relic to get and additonal +1 strength and +1 attack on your interrogator chaplain, making him a very scarily efficient unit for dealing with large monsters

Other uses could be for buffing shooty units with our unique litany.

 

Using a Land Raider with Asmodai/Termie Chaplain is certainly another option

 

Thank you for this.

I won't be doing any jump pack tactics any time soon so I'll have to resort to the termie or asmodai. 

I actually haven't played with chaplains while litanies were actually introduced - when do you roll for litanies? and does it only impact the next turn or something? If that's the case I don't see that any litanies can be casted on deep striking termies until Turn 3. 

[UtariOnzo]

It's done before movement/charges at the top of the turn and applies for that round, so you miss out on giving buffs on the turn you deepstrike as they're not on the board yet. Another option is to give your Chaplain the master of maneuver warlord trait, as that's passive and if you're dropping him with Terminators in deepstrike it'll still apply.

[ChaplainNemiel]

now that I've finally completed my veterans to field a battalion...The load outs are all just plain bolters.
Once this whole Nurgle situation calms down again I might buy another box of vets to use as heavy/special weapons marines to include in my squads. 

My question would be, what are the most suggested weapons for this situation? 

 

The point of these squads is to give me some chaff and command points for low cost while holding backfield objectives. ...As much as I'd love lascannons, I think it's a little too much of a high cost to justify it. 

 

Missiles would be very beneficial but still, fairly high cost...At least it would be easy to build (Already have the bits) 

 

Plasma guns would be versatile but not sure if it's worth the premium (still will consider doing a few guys up with plasma gun options)

 

Heavy Bolters and Plasma cannons look the best for sure and might fill the role I need. HB especially at only 10 points is definitely tempting.