Gonna build a Blood Angel legion, need help and advice

[Spagunk]

No he is not. The only way for infantry to get regular drop pods as a transport option is the Orbital Assault RoW.

 

I forgot that Drop pods weren't in the DT list for legion troops.

[bushman101]

Legion drop pods state that it can carry 10 models, a dread or the rapier crew. Didnt think there are extra conditions

I mean, it seems odd that basic infantry can't use a basic drop pod, as long as you adhere to Bulky and similar rules

[Spagunk]

It's in the DT list of the legion tactical/unit entry instead of the rules for the drop pod itself. It's a bit silly but I kinda get it I guess.

Honestly, DoR or the "Fires of Heaven" section should have drop pods as an option but I'm guessing they did that to prevent null deploy issues?

Edited August 6, 2020 by Spagunk

[bushman101]

Well, bummer.

Re-reading DoR and Orbital Assault does make drop pods sound overly restrictive.

That kinda hurts, but my list is ok as long as I change my RoW.

I guess buying some Rhinos are in my future. Same time, my Termis might see some play.

What a bumpy ride this has been.

[m0nolith]

What I would do:

 

-If you are going to be running a DoR list, I would just stick to assault marines and forget about tacticals and rhinos. Maybe 3 squads of 15, more if you can afford them, and if you have points at the end give a squad or two melta bombs. Remember melta bombs aren't actually "melta" so Armoured Ceramite doesn't work against them. This is by design and can be incredibly good.

 

-I would also get a Damocles command rhino because it prevents your troops from scattering.

 

-Forget about Angel's tears for now and max out that squad of Dawnbrakers to 10 guys, and remember to give them melta bombs. Also give the leader a Blade of Perdition, or as it is also known, the Blade of Salty Tears. Its that good :P

 

-If any sergeant can take artificer armour, always ALWAYS take artificer armour. 

 

-The melta support squads can be devistating if you pop one into a Dreadclaw and drop it in, but in all honesty expect everything important to have armoured ceramite on it, making them far less useful. I would again drop them and invest those points more into assault marines. Apothecaries attached to them will go a long way to keeping them alive that first turn they come in.

 

-Contemptor Incaendius are great, but Blood Angels have a special rule where they can take Assault Cannons, and with how rending works ACs are absolutely fantastic in 30k. You should take assault cannons if your'e not going to be taking basic heavy flamers it comes with. I would also drop the contemptor in a drop pod and take maybe another Incaendius.

Edited August 6, 2020 by m0nolith

[bushman101]

So I've picked up another 10 assault squad and a 10 tact set (to kit out some units/add plasma)

 

Further updates to my list will have to wait until FG restocked some stuff (more assault, apothecaries, etc). Also the wife has a bday this month, so...

[bushman101]

Howdy. It's been awhile!

 

I have had time to build up my legion a bit (got a Leviathan and a Dread Drop Pod :D ) and I'm getting around to painting.

 

Still a few things to work over.

 

How do people feel about the flyer options? In particular the Primaris Lightning and the Xiphon Interceptor. 

For the Lightning, are people just buying the Voss Pattern and swapping the pilot? 

[Varyn]

The lightning is the better choice from a rules perspective and has much better anti-armour capabilities. As far as I am aware the lightning has a human/robotic pilot, I don't think an astartes pilot would fit in the cockpit.

 

I think that the xiphon looks cooler and fits better with the legion aesthetic.

[Indefragable]

Xiphon’s are more all purpose and no slouch at AT duty with Strafing Run and its missiles.

 

But the Lightning is the best single-target  AT shooting in the game bar an actual Titan of some sort. Kraken Penetrators are just insane with all the bells and whistles: S8 AP2 Armourbane, Tank Hunters, BS5? That’ll put anything on its back. Closest thing to a guaranteed Spartan kill in a single round of shooting. The downside is if you don’t face something like a Spartan you’ve kind of wasted the points since that’s a bit overkill to knock a Rhino or two.

 

For painting inspiration: https://www.themightybrush.com/project/blood-angels-xiphon-interceptors/

Edited March 2, 2021 by Indefragable

[SkimaskMohawk]

The problem with the xiphon is that as a flyer with guns, its severely outclassed by the fire raptor.

 

You lose the ability to damage av 14 past one volley, but gain far more guns, far more arc of fire, machine spirit to offset jink and more hull points. The only real thing it has going for it is the fast attack slot compared to the fire raptors heavy.

[bushman101]

hmm....ok.

Any other flyers of note? 

The Storm Eagle looks neat

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's largely terrible unless you're planning on doing an air cav list, where it transitions to quite good. The dreadclaw is the premiere flyer transport for the most part.

[Indefragable]

The problem with the xiphon is that as a flyer with guns, its severely outclassed by the fire raptor.

 

You lose the ability to damage av 14 past one volley, but gain far more guns, far more arc of fire, machine spirit to offset jink and more hull points. The only real thing it has going for it is the fast attack slot compared to the fire raptors heavy.

 

As always, it depends on what you need it for and what the rest of your list looks like.

 

I'm not a huge fan of the Fire Raptor for Blood Angels in 30k because I feel we don't lack for beating up on infantry, especially Sv3+ types. 

 

Yes a Xiphon (or Javelin) can be essentially a deep striking lascannon for a Turn, but in my experience that's what you bring it for and AT shooting is always useful, especially ones that are Hard to Hit as opposed to sitting on the ground and can be deep-struck by dreads.

 

But that's just my take. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Javelins are pretty much always the optimal choice for mid-range anti tank. Not with a lascannon though, that largely squanders it's potential.

 

Deepstrike flyers is a terrible idea without a Damocles as your arcs get screwed by scatter, especially on the front mounted javelin. You only have 22.5 degrees to either side and down to line up your target in and the scatter doesn't play nice with that.

 

In terms of damage output, against Av 12 a xiphon averages 2 hull points of damage, 1.54 pens and no explodes (even with cluster warheads);a fire raptor averages 3 hull points and 1.79 pens. Still no explodes, but you average a kill on some exposed armour facing, while also shooting your reapers at more targets. It's also sad to note that on average a xiphon can't even kill a rhino in the open, let alone an AV13 (where you average a hull point and around 0.92 pens) or 14 target (0.64 glances, 0.32 pens a turn).

 

So since the xiphon is too unreliable to use against high armour and is outperformed by the fire raptor against lighter armour and infantry, why would you take the first as a general weapons platform?

[Sothalor]

Because it looks cool?

 

*Ducks for cover*

[Indefragable]

Javelins are pretty much always the optimal choice for mid-range anti tank. Not with a lascannon though, that largely squanders it's potential.

 

Deepstrike flyers is a terrible idea without a Damocles as your arcs get screwed by scatter, especially on the front mounted javelin. You only have 22.5 degrees to either side and down to line up your target in and the scatter doesn't play nice with that.

 

In terms of damage output, against Av 12 a xiphon averages 2 hull points of damage, 1.54 pens and no explodes (even with cluster warheads);a fire raptor averages 3 hull points and 1.79 pens. Still no explodes, but you average a kill on some exposed armour facing, while also shooting your reapers at more targets. It's also sad to note that on average a xiphon can't even kill a rhino in the open, let alone an AV13 (where you average a hull point and around 0.92 pens) or 14 target (0.64 glances, 0.32 pens a turn).

 

So since the xiphon is too unreliable to use against high armour and is outperformed by the fire raptor against lighter armour and infantry, why would you take the first as a general weapons platform?

 

I'll stop after this since I do not want to derail this thread any further, but by your own logic you're saying "Deep strike flyers are a terrible idea without xyz" and the talk about how good a Javelin is?

 

Xiphons work because they have strong AT weaponry that can hurt anything in the game. Focus on positioning and they will work out for you. And a Fire Raptor is far less reliable against AV14, since it has one wad to loose if you paid for the upgraded missiles and then you're left strafing lighter targets.....which is fine if that is what you are bringing it for. Back to my original point, it depends on what the rest of your army has and what your intended role for a unit is. For me, Xiphons are flying tank-hunters used to hurt things that other units simply can't (like AV14). And an X-factor is that opponents tend to over-prioritize things things based on how scary the guns are, so having flying lascannons/rotary missile launchers tends to make him pay too much attention to them, either wasting shooting or scrambling to try to avoid them. 

 

This is also perhaps more of an X-factor, but likewise in my experience the first 3 Turns or so of a game are what usually decides it. Autocannons are mathematically more reliable at glancing things, but in my experience the shock value of one-shotting vehicles with lascannons has a multiplying effect all its own. You can plink down vehicles with glancing hits for sure, but when you get a few immobilized or Exploded vehicles in a single turn of shooting, that tends to put the other guy on the back foot in a way that simply can't be mathematically quantified, no matter how seasoned he is. Even just getting Shaken results can buy you breathing room to maneuver. So for that reason I am of the "go big or go home" mindset when it comes to AT weaponry.  

 

@bushman apparently the ski-hammer says Xiphons are terrible, so take that as you will. As  BA player I swear by them as they fit nicely with my "High Speed, Low Drag" play style on the tabletop and thematically fit my vision for the faction. I want to add a Lightning as well, but that's down the road. 

[bushman101]

I'm learning a lot from people debating what they like and what not. It gives me different perspective. 

I prefer 'I like X, and here's why' versus ' X is great, LOLZ buy 10'

 

Keep it up. 

 

I'm going to post a updated list soon-ish. When I get home and open my books, I'm gonna ask a question about Dedicated Transports and some specifics concerning them.

 

Thanks for your replies

[SkimaskMohawk]

Man javelins are good because they're extremely undercosted and you can get a bunch of str 8 shots on bs 5 with twinlinked. You can get 3 with hks and melta for the same as an an upgraded xiphon. You don't deepstrike them either for the same problem of vehicle weapons arcs and I'm not even sure how you made that connection.

 

Their anti tank isn't that strong. I broke down the math in my post above, I feel like you didn't read it. Trying to then tell me to work on my positioning is sad; I play on tables with tons of LoS blocking and movement blocking. We have house rules to make ruin walls impassable and to have vehicles leave impassable wrecks. I play titanicus quite a lot as well. My positioning and movement of models is quite comprehensive.

 

A fire raptor is of course worse against av 14, but that's a terrible comparison to make to start with. You need 7 rounds of shooting to hull point a land raider from a xiphon; the explode chance is 5%. That's without cover. They're not tank hunters. They can't hunt the heavy stuff and get out-performed on the lighter stuff.

 

A vehicle kill is a vehicle kill. It's demoralizing to see your stuff die period and I'd prefer not to spend 200 points on a model that explodes a land speeder without any cover every other volley and fails to kill it while it jinks. Because that's how the math works. You can shake and immobilize and disrupt with other units.

 

They're in need of a point drop or tweak on their rotary launcher. If people want to use them and it fits their theme that's great, take it. If the question is "how good is it" then this is the answer; overpriced and outclassed in everything it wants to do.

[Bung]

I Love the Caestus Assault Ram and try to get one. But i am working in an IF army where it feels more at home.

And its the only Flyer with the Tank rule.

[bushman101]

Ok. Let's talk about transports, in particular the Damocles Command Rhino.

Can a unit that can take a 'Rhino' as a transport also take a Damocles as a DT, or does it have to specify a Damocles?

Example: can a Tact Support Squad take a Damocles as a DT?

 

Just to make sure...Independent Characters can take any DT the squad they are attached to are in (p79 in the box) but can't ride one alone unless specifically mentioned?

Edited March 4, 2021 by bushman101

[Bung]

The Damocles is a HQ choice and no dedicated Transport.

And you can only take the Options in their unit entry except some stuff that got later released.

[Gorgoff]

Ok. Let's talk about transports, in particular the Damocles Command Rhino.

Can a unit that can take a 'Rhino' as a transport also take a Damocles as a DT, or does it have to specify a Damocles?

 

Nope.

 

Example: can a Tact Support Squad take a Damocles as a DT?

Nope.

 

Just to make sure...Independent Characters can take any DT the squad they are attached to are in (p79 in the box) but can't ride one alone unless specifically mentioned?

Independent character which have joined a unit with a DT can embark with them on it, if there is enough room in this transport, but they cannot take (read: buy one) a dedicated on their own.

They can indeed embark on any transport on their own, though.

 

It is very important to understand, that independent characters are units as well. They have special rules which allows them to joins another units for example but they are units. And units can embark on transports.

 

 

 

 

 And an X-factor is that opponents tend to over-prioritize things things based on how scary the guns are, so having flying lascannons/rotary missile launchers tends to make him pay too much attention to them, either wasting shooting or scrambling to try to avoid them. 

 

Since Skim has already made the correct points to your post I just wanted to add, that this reaction to a Xiphon is very unlikely if your opponent knows its rules.

I've played against it and found it really pale in comparison to most other anti tank units.

It's the Anna Kournikova of fliers.

Looks great but seldom do anything amazing.

[bushman101]

Uhh....what can ride in the Damocles? :(

 

Since it has a Transport Capacity but isn't a DT, does that mean models can ride it after the game has started but not start the game in it?

[SkimaskMohawk]

So the confusion you have stems from how dedicated transports work; they don't take an FoC slot, but only the unit they're bought for (and attached ICs) can start in them. Non-dedicateds take up a slot, but any unit can start in them.

 

So your Damocles can have stuff start in it, but will take up a HQ slot.

[bushman101]

ok. I was over thinking it, i suppose.