Major nerf

[Guest MistaGav]

The Oculus on the Talon master is going to be an auto include as is the Deathwing ancient the buff to Azreal, Asmodai and Ezekiel is worth the 70 points and I'd have thought in the ITC meta the Deathwing Knights would fare well.

 

 

What combo is that between the DW Ancient, Azrael, Asmodai and Ezekiel out of curiosity?

[Interrogator Stobz]

Let's keep on the topic of these nerfs.

They are not the end of the world for us here in the DA space, in fact many here have proposed some good solutions for playing.

Let's be as constructive as we collectively can, the DA have been underdogs for so long this blip won't change our relentless stoicism.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Interrogator Stobz

[Grimdark_Garage]

I always feel for those who rush out and buy the new hotness after a new book drops. I've seen it so often.

 

However, if you do, you are a power gamer. With that comes a risk that what you have just bought might get nerfed. After all, there's a reason you just went out and bought it.

 

Overall this change is only going to vex those that went and bought 12x speeders or 3x Dark Talons this past month.

 

And even so, these units are going to wreck face in the 1st turn and wreck only slightly less face in the subsequent turns.

 

When I think about a rapid response army, I don't see them adhering to what is essentially a primarily arriallary doctrine for an entire battle.

 

This change makes sense. Sure its pissed people off but we're still 10 steps ahead of what we were pre PA4.

 

I fully support GWs decision here. Though I do question why Doctrines were implemented the way they were when this would be a fairly obvious issue.

 

I do still feel sorry for our Red, vampire brethren. They still have to wait until turn 3 at the earliest.

At least we get a full turn of hard poundage with maximum amount of units.

[Lord_Ikka]

Initial opinion- super pissed off, mainly because I have my first tournament next week and felt that my army (heavy greenwing gunline with some DW deepstrikers and a BK squad) had been blasted to crap. I'm not a competitive player, but am starting to go to a few local tournaments (mainly because my local X-wing tournaments aren't syncing up with my schedule), so I was pretty disappointed/trying to re-do my list to see if I could work something out.

 

After thinking it through, and debating internally whether or not just to use my AdMech/Knights list, I said screw it and decided to just play my DA. Its the list/army I love the most, I have lots of practice games with them, and just feel like I might as well play what I want since I'm not a meta-gamer. I did remove my heavy flamer from my Cataphractii DW, but that gave me two hunter-killer missiles to blast off on the first turn- might as well use them when they're at their best.

 

Overall, I like the fact that I should be seeing less IH/RG/IF cheese at tournaments, and while I wish that DA didn't get hammered just because those meta-list armies needed to be slowed down, I'm okay with it. We adapt and we endure, we are the Dark Angels.

[domsto]

At least we had like 3 Months of semi decent Rules to play with.

Now it's time to go back into the Box and wait

Edited February 28, 2020 by domsto

[Skywrath]

At least we had like 3 Months of semi decent Rules to play with.

Now it's time to go back into the Box and wait

 

I do not believe we were hit that hard with the nerfs (at least to justify that action), brother. 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[cernunnos]

Change doesn’t bother me much. I often use a deredeo with plasma cannonade, a vindicator and am a fan of grav cannons. 1st turn is when I really need the super doctrine. Moving through tactical and assault in later turns fits my style of play so there is little impact for me really.

[FarFromSam]

I always feel for those who rush out and buy the new hotness after a new book drops. I've seen it so often.

However, if you do, you are a power gamer. With that comes a risk that what you have just bought might get nerfed. After all, there's a reason you just went out and bought it.

Overall this change is only going to vex those that went and bought 12x speeders or 3x Dark Talons this past month.

And even so, these units are going to wreck face in the 1st turn and wreck only slightly less face in the subsequent turns.

When I think about a rapid response army, I don't see them adhering to what is essentially a primarily arriallary doctrine for an entire battle.

This change makes sense. Sure its pissed people off but we're still 10 steps ahead of what we were pre PA4.

I fully support GWs decision here. Though I do question why Doctrines were implemented the way they were when this would be a fairly obvious issue.

I do still feel sorry for our Red, vampire brethren. They still have to wait until turn 3 at the earliest.

At least we get a full turn of hard poundage with maximum amount of units.

I've been playing Dark Angel's for quite some time. After finally getting playable rules that weren't overpowered, I finally bought and painted the new primaris models focusing on units with short range, or heavy keyword. I finally had hope that my favorite chapter would see play.

 

Finally, I see hope is the first step to...

 

Three squads of eliminators, a squad of aggressors, a squad of hellblasters and two squads of intercessors are be the last GW models I will buy for quite a while. I don't think it's unreasonable to buy a new book, and expect the main feature. The whole focus, the entire shtick to be useable for more than two or three months.

 

Perhaps this is a knee jerk reaction to their knee jerk reaction, but I am done buying into GW cash grabs. My Win/loss record wouldn't show me as power gamer (at least not a good one) but after sticking with DA through 4++ storm shields for a whole edition. And all of the other "prestige" that comes with being a DA player. It's interesting we're considered power gamers for getting excited about being on par with other armies. I'll keep playing and trying to make it work, but GW isn't getting my money for a while.

 

This kinda turned into a rant about the nerf, but thanks for letting me vent, Sam.

[SnakeChisler]

 

The Oculus on the Talon master is going to be an auto include as is the Deathwing ancient the buff to Azreal, Asmodai and Ezekiel is worth the 70 points and I'd have thought in the ITC meta the Deathwing Knights would fare well.

 

 

What combo is that between the DW Ancient, Azrael, Asmodai and Ezekiel out of curiosity?

 

His new banner applies to deathwing infantry models as does +1 attack so the main characters like Azreal Asmodai and Ezekiel gain from it, if your building a smash captain you can give him the deathwing keyword, all librarians and interogators are deathwing.

 

With snipers around and librarians prone to blowing themselves up a 5 up shrug against mortals is pretty useful and as a counter attacking force Azreal with 5 attacks base your bumping him up to 8 in the 1st turn if your stacking Asmodai and you have a relic to -1 invun + warlord trait that gives you re-rolls to wound.

 

Maybe you don't want to spend the 70 points just to buff your characters but games are going to be won and lost on late game moves and how the deathwing ancient gets used and the ravenwing apothecary is going to be interesting

[Berzul]

Aren't we being overly dramatic, a bit?

 

I mean, c'mon. Our codex is more than just Ravenwing, and even the Ravenwing is more than just Landspeeders firing from 52" away as a static gunline.

 

The Dark Angels are THE army when it comes to combined arms, adaptability, and the joy of a plan coming together. We are the heirs to the strategic genius of the Lion; the greatest Primarch there ever was. Not for nothing we are the First Legion. The legacy of the Hexagrammaton still endures in our codex, and these changes play directly to that effect.

 

Sure, we lose some range beyond turn one, but our weapons are already able to reach the enemy. We still force them to deploy defensively, and farther back than they would otherwise. This is still a big edge for us, and gives us a better strategic position for when our bikes lead the way in to summon the deathwing to deal with the problem with their tactical doctrine. With our knights so improved, who here would not jump at the idea of an extra AP on those maces of absolution, as early as possible?

 

Our super doctrine was never where our strengths were. Unlike the one-trick ponies other armies became, we retained our versatility, and these changes do not alter that.

[shabbadoo]

Not having played since just before the Combat Doctrines for DA came out, I was under the impression that the doctrines necessarily advanced at various points to begin with, not that one could just sit on one's fat arse eating chips/crisps and plinking away with lascannons using the Devastator Doctrine the whole game. What a boring arse game that would be.

 

I guess we really do have to give thanks to the tournament scene for doing such a bang up job of exploiting things, thereby unavoidably drawing attention to such obvious jackassery. They do serve a purpose after all! Kudos! I completely support folks needing to learn more about the Face Shootin' and Stabby Stabby doctrines.

Edited February 28, 2020 by shabbadoo

[oldmanlee]

 

 

I guess we really do have to give thanks to the tournament scene for doing such a bang up job of exploiting things, thereby unavoidably drawing attention to such obvious jackassery. They do serve a purpose after all! Kudos! I completely support folks needing to learn more about the Face Shootin' and Stabby Stabby doctrines.

 

Sorry but I don't agree with that statement if your playtesters are telling you before a codex is to be released that's it's broken and needs more playtesting you should probably listen. You can't put all the blame on tournament players for gw putting out a knee jerk FAQ becuse you give them option and they stick to the option which in the current rules set of the game is clearly the best.as assault is not great in this edition.sorry for my little rant here and earlier but I do get annoyed when people straight up blame tournament players for everything wrong with the game

 

Anyway back to looking at way to get a doublewing army with all the toys I want in it

[Skywrath]

Aren't we being overly dramatic, a bit?

 

I mean, c'mon. Our codex is more than just Ravenwing, and even the Ravenwing is more than just Landspeeders firing from 52" away as a static gunline.

 

The Dark Angels are THE army when it comes to combined arms, adaptability, and the joy of a plan coming together. We are the heirs to the strategic genius of the Lion; the greatest Primarch there ever was. Not for nothing we are the First Legion. The legacy of the Hexagrammaton still endures in our codex, and these changes play directly to that effect.

 

Sure, we lose some range beyond turn one, but our weapons are already able to reach the enemy. We still force them to deploy defensively, and farther back than they would otherwise. This is still a big edge for us, and gives us a better strategic position for when our bikes lead the way in to summon the deathwing to deal with the problem with their tactical doctrine. With our knights so improved, who here would not jump at the idea of an extra AP on those maces of absolution, as early as possible?

 

Our super doctrine was never where our strengths were. Unlike the one-trick ponies other armies became, we retained our versatility, and these changes do not alter that.

 

That. Those people that want to re-roll or quit the hobby, should read that suggestion, and then re-read it again for good measure. The big-picture is this: Nothing has changed for us since PA. We are still viable and fun to play. We still enjoy calling ourselves Dark Angels (at least I hope). The only barrier that we have now is people not willing to try new ideas. There were multiple tri or duo-wings army in our army list that are fun in nature, yet still remain competitive (see mine or Berzul's list as tentative examples of that fact).  

Edited February 28, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Grimdark_Garage]

I would like to give a B+C example as to why i think this move was correct.

 

I recently riased a new topic asking if a Sicaran would be a decent addiotna to my DA army:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362118-sicarian-post-pa4/

 

A number of repsonses were along the lines of "Doesnt really fit with our Doctrine"

 

The fact that our doctrine stopped me from buying a great unit speaks volumes.

 

I've been playing Dark Angel's for quite some time. After finally getting playable rules that weren't overpowered, I finally bought and painted the new primaris models focusing on units with short range, or heavy keyword. I finally had hope that my favorite chapter would see play.

Finally, I see hope is the first step to...

Three squads of eliminators, a squad of aggressors, a squad of hellblasters and two squads of intercessors are be the last GW models I will buy for quite a while. I don't think it's unreasonable to buy a new book, and expect the main feature. The whole focus, the entire shtick to be useable for more than two or three months.

Perhaps this is a knee jerk reaction to their knee jerk reaction, but I am done buying into GW cash grabs. My Win/loss record wouldn't show me as power gamer (at least not a good one) but after sticking with DA through 4++ storm shields for a whole edition. And all of the other "prestige" that comes with being a DA player. It's interesting we're considered power gamers for getting excited about being on par with other armies. I'll keep playing and trying to make it work, but GW isn't getting my money for a while.

This kinda turned into a rant about the nerf, but thanks for letting me vent, Sam.

 

 

Three squads of eliminators, a squad of aggressors, a squad of hellblasters and two squads of intercessors - All Terrific units in their own right.

 

Hellbalsters and Aggressors will BENEFIT from the changes.
 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Grimdark_Garage

[Master Sheol]

IMHO there are two ways to go: keeping the doctrines or not

If we feel the doctrines are useful even if nerfed the best way Is double Battalion with talon masters and chaplains as HQs, bare scouts as troops and then RW units like there is no tomorrow with eventually some DWK to add HtH punch

If we feel doctrines are messed up the best way Is still the Imperial soup with a loyal 17/32 and eventually a IK

[FarFromSam]

I appreciate yall being optimistic about surviving the nerf, but this is a nerf.  A major nerf.  I know Stubborn is the First Legion's trait, but it's okay to call bull:cuss on a bull:cuss call. 

 

With the new deployment rules. If you're enemy is going second, they'll be out of LOS.  If they're going first and you deploy in a position where you can make use of your 1 turn of extra range that unit won't be there.  If this isn't the case, you are probably playing someone you were going to beat anyway.

 

Again, I understand making the best out of another bad situation.  But a beat dog shouldn't be happy that at least it didn't rain while it was beat.

 

Garage, wouldn't you agree the flexibility to choose between two buffs is what a brilliant strategist would prefer?  We benefited before.  Now we are told how to play, and that takes fun game decisions away from us.  "Do I move forward and become more lethal? Or, should I force my enemy to come forward to me."  Now we are forced to go forward whether it is the right decision or not.  We're marines, not Orks.  

 

I'm with Sheol.  Soup is back.  Mono Marine sure were nice while they lasted.  Moving forward we could always proxy as Blood angels, or White Scars.  

[Hantheman]

I'm intersted in how much this has affected people. A lot of anger. And I bet without playing a single game with the changes.

 

Take it easy, see what happens. Dark Angels were very strong, went to win one GT and almost one another in the space of weeks. If you want to play the strongest army, then this doesn't change any thing, you're going to chase the meta anyway. For those who don't, you just adapt.

 

The idea that opponents can hide everything is an interesting one, because even at LVO tables, it's impossible. Especially vs fliers and mobile untargetable flying characters... which we have.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Hantheman

[G8Keeper]

We're not forced to do anything.  We will still get 3 turns of powerful shooting, still re-rolling 1's with Grim Resolve and still only losing 1 model to failed morale.  After that if you want to stand and shoot still you can and with new litanies and stratagems you will still be pretty effective.  If you want to close in and finish the enemy off, great! You'll get a nice little bonus for that.

 

Having said all of that, I play casual so I can understand how playing competitively these changes would make players think again with their army choice, or soup up if their aim is to win.

 

There is a definite divergence in opinions here between the tournament and casual camps, I'm not sure how to address that.

[shabbadoo]

 

Sorry but I don't agree with that statement if your playtesters are telling you before a codex is to be released that's it's broken and needs more playtesting you should probably listen. You can't put all the blame on tournament players for gw putting out a knee jerk FAQ becuse you give them option and they stick to the option which in the current rules set of the game is clearly the best.as assault is not great in this edition.sorry for my little rant here and earlier but I do get annoyed when people straight up blame tournament players for everything wrong with the game

As I am speaking generally, and not wanting to paint all with the broad brush, tournament players not guilty of being 'that guy" are generally pretty awesome in my experience. However, the blame is rightfully placed in this instance, and the update literally cites this as a reason (albeit in a very diplomatic manner). And an update based on feedback from thousands of games across many events over many months is anything but a kneejerk reaction. It was certainly a good decision to include Robin Cruddace's and Jason Lippert's commentary at the beginning of what I think is a judicious update.

[FarFromSam]

 

 

Sorry but I don't agree with that statement if your playtesters are telling you before a codex is to be released that's it's broken and needs more playtesting you should probably listen. You can't put all the blame on tournament players for gw putting out a knee jerk FAQ becuse you give them option and they stick to the option which in the current rules set of the game is clearly the best.as assault is not great in this edition.sorry for my little rant here and earlier but I do get annoyed when people straight up blame tournament players for everything wrong with the game

As I am speaking generally, and not wanting to paint all with the broad brush, tournament players not guilty of being 'that guy" are generally pretty awesome in my experience. However, the blame is rightfully placed in this instance, and the update literally cites this as a reason (albeit in a very diplomatic manner). And an update based on feedback from thousands of games across many events over many months is anything but a kneejerk reaction. It was certainly a good decision to include Robin Cruddace's and Jason Lippert's commentary at the beginning of what I think is a judicious update.

 

 

 

Ah.  But, that is about Codex Adeptus Astartes.  Was the PA available for use at LVO?  They poorly addressed the issue and it has had far reaching, hopefully unintended and fixable effects.  I don't believe they're citing Dark Angels as the root of this Errata

[Grimdark_Garage]

Garage, wouldn't you agree the flexibility to choose between two buffs is what a brilliant strategist would prefer?  We benefited before.  Now we are told how to play, and that takes fun game decisions away from us.  "Do I move forward and become more lethal? Or, should I force my enemy to come forward to me."  Now we are forced to go forward whether it is the right decision or not.  We're marines, not Orks.  

 

I'm with Sheol.  Soup is back.  Mono Marine sure were nice while they lasted.  Moving forward we could always proxy as Blood angels, or White Scars.  

I do agree. And i would also go so far as to say there was a better way to manage this for Dark Angels. Furthermore, its horrific timing for us as an army.

 

You raise a good point that a decent enemy could sit back and wait for the Devestator doctrine to run its course. On the flip side, scaring your oponent into playing cagey first turn can also be a benefit.

 

Maybe im not as bitter as my list doesnt lose out with these changes.

 

Im still more furious that Vanilla lists have more options in the way of Vanilla Charcters...why can they have a 77 points Chapter master!

Or a 72 points two Litany spouting Master of Sanctity!

 

But i digress.....

[Solrac]

Everyone on here bashing tournament players for "exploiting" or "abusing rules" need to stop.

 

A person playing at a Tournament optimising their list to the best rules available to them isn't cheating, abusive or exploiting in the slightest. They are just using the best tools within the rules given to them by GW to win in a competitive event and are actually very innovative to come up with these army list idea's to win in a competitive setting.

 

This is no different to what happens in other game systems, video games or even competitive sports.

 

Tournament players shouldn't be blamed because GW realised they can use their rules to generate profits. They are very comparable to pay to win mobile games now in that regard. They also have sub standard rules writers that aren't quality checking properly or even listening to their play testers. Add to that an awfully long 6 monthly rules review process (that get's delayed) and do knee jerk, quick fix band aids when they think their angered customer base is affecting profits.

 

This isn't a tournament players fault, it's GW's fault with their lazy rules writing.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Solrac

[Bryan Blaire]

A person playing at a Tournament optimising their list to the best rules available to them isn't ... exploiting in the slightest. They are just using the best tools within the rules given to them by GW to win in a competitive event and are actually very innovative to come up with these army list idea's to win in a competitive setting.

That’s actually the very definition in English of exploit:

 

Merriam-Webster:

exploit verb

ex·​ploit | \ ik-ˈsplȯit , ˈek-ˌsplȯit \

exploited; exploiting; exploits

Definition of exploit (Entry 2 of 2)

transitive verb

1 : to make productive use of : UTILIZE

exploiting your talents

exploit your opponent's weakness

 

So yes, if they are optimizing, they are very much exploiting - that doesn’t make it an inherently bad thing just because the word “exploit(ing)” does have a negative denotation as well - you can be 100% within the rules and still be exploiting them (it sometimes actually makes the exploitation that much more of an issue).

 

GW recognized the explotative capability and the realizations thereof from the rules that had been released and took action, no matter how delayed. Whether they should have ever written the potentially exploitative rules in the first place, or should have acted sooner, is neither here nor there to that - it’s trying to discuss a completely different topic that would be more suited to the general section of the board on its own.

 

Is this a nerf to Dark Angels? How you view that (and the perceived magnitude of said nerf) is probably greatly dependent on how much benefit you had received already or were anticipating receiving in the future from exploiting the rules as they were written.

 

I haven’t even played 8th with Dark Angels, so to me it’s of very little difference whether it was a nerf or not.

[G8Keeper]

I think it's very important in discussions like this for both tournament and casual players to remember there are people who play the game in a different environment, that has both a different mindset and way of playing and act accordingly.

[Solrac]

@Bryan Blair

By exploit I was talking about it in the negative sense that it keeps getting referred to i.e exploiting the game rules to cheat etc.

 

You are a word smith sir.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Solrac