New FAQs are up!

[Hiroitchi]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/?orderby=post_created&order=desc#warhammer-40000

 

Here you go and quick recap:

 

No centurions with MoA. Doctrines are forced now and Adaptive strat is dead. Check them out and discuss.

[MajorNese]

...I guess we got off lightly.

 

MoA Centurions is powerful, but not exactly flexible when going second or getting screened against. We can still deep strike all of them, and boost charges to the point where they will get where needed.

 

Forced doctrine change makes it more cumbersome, but not faction-breaking for us.

First turn we're in dev anyway, second we're in tac anyway, third we can stay in tac. Fourth turn is pretty much lategame, things have been decided at that point already, so getting a boost in CC for your few remaining units/targets doesn't change too much.

 

But yay, those who profited from super doctrines from first turn on (IH, IF) now only get them for a single turn each game. That does hurt.

 

 

Also it makes marines what they should have been - flexible allrounders, instead of shoehorning the entire army into one type of weaponry.

Edited February 27, 2020 by MajorNese

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Overall I agree with MN, we got off lightly. I really expected a points hike on Assault Cents tbh.

 

I do agree with some that the way they nerfed Duty Eternal should not have effected every army, just Iron Hands.

 

Also interesting of note is Chaplain Dreads left untouched?

[Hiroitchi]

Overall I agree with MN, we got off lightly. I really expected a points hike on Assault Cents tbh.

 

I do agree with some that the way they nerfed Duty Eternal should not have effected every army, just Iron Hands.

 

Also interesting of note is Chaplain Dreads left untouched?

I agree MN did make a fair assessment of the situation. We just have to wait for the results of Adepticon and the next few major events. As for chap dreads, we’ll see if they stay, get nerfed, or go to legends all together.

 

Now just to find alternate ways around this latest set of FAQs.

[thewarriorhunter]

I think all of the changes are great. I don't run centurions so I personally have no skin in the game for this FAQ but I'm all for balancing the game and making it more enjoyable for both players.

 

Being forced out of Tactical Doctrine Turn 4 doesn't concern me too much because as MN said, I think my then the game is mostly going a certain way, and at least we should have cleaned up the characters by taking advantage of our doctrine.

[MajorNese]

Overall I agree with MN, we got off lightly. I really expected a points hike on Assault Cents tbh.

The RG power combos are mostly about SftS, deep striking units that are usually lacking mobility. Preventing SftS from working with Centurions would have been way harder on us than raising the points. And points raise would be punishing other chapters, for which assault centurions were barely usable to begin with - that would have been on par with raising Duty Eternal to 3CP, punishing those who couldn't possibly abuse it anyway.

 

 

All in all, the dev superdoctrine chapters got nerfed hard, the more I think about it.

IF wiped out everything with ridiculous numbers of stalker boltrifles and other heavy weapons not designed to kill tanks, now those work only for a first strike. Leaving the entire game plan bare.

 

IH now require captains, not just techmarines. Their gunline can only move for one turn before suffering penalties doing so, same for the uber precise flyers.

The FW dreads are still bonkers - on turn one. From turn 2 on, bonus AP and rerolls are gone, and moving actually hurts their aim too.

Stacking up on all the stalker boltrifles in the world - pointless, turn 2-3 regular bolt rifles are better.

 

IH went from an absolute no-brainer army to one sitting between all chairs.

If they stock up on heavies as before, to get the most out of their super doctrine, they get literally one shot to cripple the opponent's army and move up a bit, instead of constantly killing everything while walking up the field to claim objectives - leaving half the army behind is not the strongest push for objectives. Turn 2+, they have the same tools as everyone else to work with, so they do have to factor that into the army build, weakening their turn 1 barrage.

 

In contrast, we've had this discussion since the very beginning - what to field to exploit turn 1 dev doctrine, what to field in which way to use tac doctrine to the fullest effect.

And with Shock Assault and our numerous charge bonuses, we will find a way to make use of the mandatory assault doctrine too. Our preferred weaponry is already rapid fire and assault, those usually do operate in the general vicinity of enemy units. And our boss is a highly mobile CC guy hading out charge bonuses, as well as the Master of the Vanguard + Swift and Deadly combo making our guys the Usain Bolters.

 

With RG already being the number two supplement (going off tournament results) and now (except for one combo) zero changes before turn 4, we might actually end up as the most powerful Astartes subfaction. UM profit a lot more from their doctrine manipulations now and are quite flexible too, but the deployment shenanigans open up a whole new dimension of combos that others simply can't replicate.

 

Especially the option to deep strike key units instead of being forced to deploy them regularly makes us a hard counter to the dev superdoctrine factions now - their power-up is spent before ours even hit the board.

[Dracos]

. . . and this is why I had already planned on only building one unit of Assault Centurions . . . and two units of Aggressors :) I might actually just trade the Centurions NIB if I can get equal value for something else Primaris that suits my needs?

 

Speaking of . . .

 

Between the changes to ITC and the FAQ ... I think we will see Reivers on the rise as a unit important for scoring secondaries.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

So my line of thinking has taken me to this: Master of Ambush is still very strong and probably an auto-include (or at least a consideration with Hero/Path and optional). Assuming that is the case, the question becomes what to Ambush in:

• My go-to forever has been a 6-Man unit of Boltstorm Aggressors. This is probably our most "conventional" choice. And for threat saturation its relatively "cheap" at 222 Points
• Terminators (I can't believe I am even suggesting this). Specifically a unit of 10 Tartaros could be a bit entertaining - yet overpriced - MoA definitely helps mitigate their 4" move. Still likely better to just deep strike as they will struggle to move and charge against screens still.
• Vanguard Veterans - This is likely the only option to contest the Aggressors imo. You can build a very killy unit for around the same price point. Storm Shields, Thunder Hammers, and some ablative Chainswords. Try to get 10 with Jump Packs, and use them as a bodyguard for a Smash Captain or Slaplain with MoA.
• I suppose a cheaper dakka-unit to Aggressors would be Sternguard. Trade volume of fire (and some melee) for better quality of fire. Less durable though. 140 Points at +1 to Wound and -2AP.
• Budget option for small games: 5 Company Vets with Storm Shields and Storm Bolters - could be sorta fun to park in cover near your opponents half of the board and chew threw horde bodies.

 

I'm sure its terrible but I kind of want to playtest a list around using MoA on a 10-Man unit of Cataphractii with a Chaplain that do a "tip of the spear" type strategy. Plan on dumping Transhuman and Fury of the First (I think thats what it's called) on them each turn. For the memes, ya know?

 

Edit: Honorable mention for 6 Inceptors. Blow up their screen with 36 Heavy Bolter shots then use the large/fast moving footprint to tri-point something juicy on T1. Then you can fall back and shoot (and charge with the Raven strat) on your next turn with our Super Doctrine live, and easily execute characters. Hmmmm.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Shadow Captain Vyper

[duz_]

Let's try and keep the focus on RG in here

 

As several Shadow Captains have said this barely impacts me (until they apply the MoA restriction on aggressors).

I never liked the Centurion aesthetic and their bulk and slow movement doesn't work well with RG lore in my opinion, which is why I never got any.

 

The Doctrine change and removal of the strat does limit our maximum effectiveness to 2 turns. Which is a pain but good for the game overall.

 

Upside is now I don't have to remember to declare my Doctrine each turn and nor do I have to decide if I want to switch into assault or not :lol:

 

This may make me tweak my scout sniper / Lasfuls / Elimator load out though

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

This may make me tweak my scout sniper / Lasfuls / Elimator load out though

 

• I think Eliminators (as Bolt Snipers) are still amazing and an auto take. For other chapters maybe not, but for RG they are stupidly good.
• I think Lasfusils are still hot garbage and a waste of the unit's potential
• Sniper Scouts are definitely not as good as they were, but at the same time what use we saw them put to at NOVA has remain unchanged (Using SFTS on them to hold a unit of 10 back in reserve then drop on T2 into our super doctrine and try to mess a unit (character) up with them. I think this means you're less likely to see small units of scouts to fill out troop slots, but you might still see units of 10 that can be held back (in the right match-up) and used as an offensive tool with our Super Doctrine. This is all of course beyond their normal capability of deployment and screening - and consigned to death.

[thewarriorhunter]

The cataphractii is an interesting thought. I love the way they look and would love to add them to my new colors but I refuse to paint another squad of them. Terminators still die really easily so I'm not sure about how viable they really are. The fastest way to move them around the board is to make successful charges.

 

That being said I think MoA them up with the Chaplain for charge bonus would be amazing. I may give that a shot when my Chaplain is done.

[superwill]

I am looking at aggressors as a replacement for a squad of assault cents (may still put some in reserve, but obviously can’t MoA them now).

 

It’s been a while since I checked them out - is it right that the boltstorm ones only have 6 shots each? And they’re not rapid fire but assault? If so, I’m pretty sure that for successors it is way better to take the flamers right? With the extra 3”, that means on turn one you’re shooting 4 flamers (14 hits) vs shooting 2 bolters (8 hits). For a squad of six, that’s 84 vs 48 hits. That’s almost double the firepower. Plus they’re cheaper in points.

 

Is there an upside I’m missing, or is it simply that some people aren’t going successors or are picking different CT so can’t take the flamers?

 

I love the inceptors idea, but I just think 36 shots won’t be enough to clear a screen.

Edited February 27, 2020 by superwill

[Dumah]

You're forgetting they have fragstorm grenade launchers as well so an additional d6 s4 hits per Aggressor.

[superwill]

Ahhh cool. So is that only the bolter version that has that?

[Dracos]

Yes Will. Between the range and double-tap, it's generally considered the best of the two, but I definitely could see using the flamestorm gauntlets with Long Range Msrksman and MoA, now that Centurions can't.

 

Aggressors are a step down but not slouches as replacements for Centurions. Especially in the new ITC rules where you know whether your going to have first turn or not. Without the durability of Centurions though it might not hurt to have an Invictor nearby to give your opponent another target to worry about until T2 when you bring the Centurions out from the Shadows ;)

[Claws and Effect]

I really expected a points hike on Assault Cents tbh.

I didn't.

 

GW actually got this one right. Using that WL Trait and the Infiltrators Strategem on Centurions was an outlier case that was really strong.

 

Assault Centurions as a whole are nearly useless for anyone but us. They're so slow you need to stick them in a Land Raider or Stormraven. No one is dumb enough to buy a transport that costs twice what you're putting in it.

[superwill]

Oh gosh,
Played my first two games since the FAQ today. First time swapping out my assault cents for aggressors.
My oh my, they are certainly a downgrade.

 

First game I got to go first, and so MoAd them in and was full of excitement. Gave them +1 to hit and wound from a chaplain. They did 3 wounds to a squad of necron destroyers... (not an ideal target but there was literally nothing else in range/sight.) And of course they died with absolute ease on the counterattack. Mmm, well, I didn't really have any better options, but I guess you can chalk it up to a bad matchup for them (T5 with a 2+ not exactly a great target for S4 AP0 bolters) and certainly the rolling wasn't great. (I did win the game, but no thanks to MoA).
 

Second game I went second against Orks. Now absolutely, if I had gotten first turn they would've done much better in this game. But a MoA choice is only as good as its contingency plan I think, and against orks you'd think even resorting to using SftS is decent. But having to deepstrike them in, it was just so super obvious how inferior they were to assault cents. Half of the shots (or potentially less) is one thing, but the survivability is also a massive bummer. Again the aggressors felt like more of a liability / pointsink than anything else, and for a unit which is really meant to be a workhorse they were again a total flop.

It's two games so I won't write them off yet. But I just feel like ass-cents are so superior. Better shooting (especially if you have to DS them), better survivability, don't have to stand still, and of course none of that is even their main benefit (that being reserved for the fact they are maybe the hardest hitting combat unit in the codex). It'll definitely be an adjustment, and I'm definitely keen to see whether there's anything else that might be able to compete for their spot. VV were my other thought too (as people have mentioned), just because starting 9 away with the potential to move, advance and still charge with +1 inch is tempting.

Edited March 2, 2020 by superwill

[Dracos]

Of course Cents are superior to Aggressors. They were cheap to use before CP wise. Now we have to invest more CP and they won’t be of use until T2. In my opinion the we will need to plan is to support the Aggressors with either an Invictor or Incursor/infiltrator shooting. Definitely not using them with MoA unless the situation is advantageous. They just aren’t Centurions.

 

Centurions cost more. More points and more CP, especially when buffing with a Master Chaplain. We will need to adjust and move our parts around a bit. Still going to be a similar play style just not Alpha engaging so easily and deadly. The other answer was hiking Cent points and that would have been unfair to everyone else.

 

 

Better than being Iron Hands. GW did good.