New SM - nerfs /changes to Doctrines.

[Karhedron]

I'm too lazy to search for it right now, but he won another tournament this weekend with this slightly tweaked list:

 

Detachment 1

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [72 PL, 949pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

 

+ HQ +

Astorath: 3. Exhortation of Rage, 4. Mantra of Strength, Invocation of Destruction, Litanies of Hate

 

Lemartes: 6. Canticle of Hate, Litanies of Hate

 

+ Troops +

Scout Squad

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Combat knife

 

Scout Squad

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Combat knife

 

Scout Squad

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Combat knife

 

+ Elites +

Death Company: Jump Pack

. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

. Death Company Marine

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

 

Sanguinary Ancient: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword, Standard of Sacrifice

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad: Jump Pack

. Space Marine Veteran: Thunder hammer

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. . Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran: Power fist, Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran: Power fist, Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. . Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. . Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. . Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. . Storm shield

. Veteran Sergeant: Thunder hammer

. . Bolt pistol and chainsword

. . Storm shield

 

Detachment 2

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [85 PL, 1,049pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

 

+ HQ +

Sanguinary Priest: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Icon of The Angel, Jump Pack

 

The Sanguinor: 4. Heroic Bearing, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

Scout Squad

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

Scout Squad

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout: Boltgun

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

Scout Squad

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Combat knife

 

+ Elites +

Sanguinary Guard

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Power fist

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Power fist

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

 

Sanguinary Guard

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Power fist

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Power fist

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

 

Sanguinary Guard

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine axe

++ Total: [157 PL, 1,998pts] ++

 

No Captain Smash? My Gast is well and truly Flabbered.

 

Looks like a pretty nasty list. With Lemartes and the Icon Priest, that is a lot of heavy hitters dropping on T2 with rerollable 8" charges. Some of them are going to hit home. Alternatively, the DC can FF up the table on T1 if required.

 

My only concern with the multiple squads of SG is the diminishing returns as the stratagems can only used once per turn. Then again,chewing through 3 squads of 2W 2+/5+++ SG with a Priest nearby to patch them up is getting near to Deathguard levels of durability with far more movement and melee power.

[Panzer]

It's a comparatively difficult to play list and thus is very hit or miss. You really have to know what you are doing.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Panzer

[Majkhel]

Whoa, haven't thought on putting both CS and combat blade on the choppy scouts' sarge
Really cool list!

Are we really allowed to take TH, CS and SS on the VanVets? Both Sarge and one of the Vets seems to have all that

Edited March 2, 2020 by Majkhel

[Panzer]

Whoa, haven't thought on putting both SC and combat blade on the choppy scouts' sarge

Really cool list!

 

Are we really allowed to take TH, CS and SS on the VanVets? Both Sarge and one of the Vets seems to have all that

 

The Vanguard Veteran one is a mistake but I doubt he actually used the pistol or chainsword on him anyway nor that it would have made any difference since he said that he usually doesn't even bother shooting with his DC regardless of whether they have Bolter or Bolt Pistols since he rather uses that time to concentrate on movement and such.

[Karhedron]

Just personally I would never ignore DC Shooting. An extra 2 S4 bolter shots (at AP-1 in T2) can really help their chaff clearance against horde armies (as long as you do not rob yourself of a charge in the process).

 

Having said that, his results are impressive so maybe he is on to something.

[Drunken Angel]

He moves the DC up with FF and stratagem for 3 D6 charge with Angels wing on 2nd Sang Ancient to re-roll any dice.  Those can't be messed with.  Get a canticle from Lemartes off  and your away  down the board for what, an average of 15 inches before re-rolls.   He needs that large blob of DC to string back to characters and let them buff.   I cant see how you would not wrap and trap something early.  I suspect he runs a Sang Ancient with the DC early in the game using the Sang ancient and Lemartes in combo  he would have DC at LD 10 thats their only weakness negated.  Its huge early pressure on anyone.  It's a very edgy list and exploits all the assault moves, congratulations for running it.

 

Edit for grammar 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Drunken Angel

[Majkhel]

Checked: scouts are legit, so one more attack on the Sarge, yay! 4 base, 5 on the charge, 6 on the charge with Savage Echoes (if he lives that long). That brings a 11pts model almost to a Captain level in terms of number of attacks - pretty awesome. Gonna definitely model that :)

The VanVets having TH, SS and CS are definitely a mistake, as only 2 items on them overall are permitted.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Maybe this is why half the people in my meta are moving to Blood Angels and scalping all the Sanguinary guard...

 

Yuck. Oh well, I get it.

[The Unseen]

Well, we are fabulous.

 

But I'm betting most of them will play a few games, realize winning in the assault phase takes actual work, and stop, if they are band wagoners.

I don't think many people could recreate his win with his list without an excessive amount of practice.

So basically the opposite of the IH stuff.

 

Though it does make me think about running 2 squads of 6 rather than one of 8-9...

[t-dog1996]

Well, we are fabulous.

 

But I'm betting most of them will play a few games, realize winning in the assault phase takes actual work, and stop, if they are band wagoners.

I don't think many people could recreate his win with his list without an excessive amount of practice.

So basically the opposite of the IH stuff.

 

Though it does make me think about running 2 squads of 6 rather than one of 8-9...

 

This is what I enjoy about playing BA at the moment. We are absolutely a strong army right now, but you can't just throw them on the table, roll some dice and hey presto you've won. You have to think carefully about how to plan your assault and be ready for any counters your opponent may have. Makes the victories all the sweeter.

[Drunken Angel]

 

Well, we are fabulous.

 

But I'm betting most of them will play a few games, realize winning in the assault phase takes actual work, and stop, if they are band wagoners.

I don't think many people could recreate his win with his list without an excessive amount of practice.

So basically the opposite of the IH stuff.

 

Though it does make me think about running 2 squads of 6 rather than one of 8-9...

 

This is what I enjoy about playing BA at the moment. We are absolutely a strong army right now, but you can't just throw them on the table, roll some dice and hey presto you've won. You have to think carefully about how to plan your assault and be ready for any counters your opponent may have. Makes the victories all the sweeter.

 

Indeed its a good time to play BA and it will get better for everyone else too.  We are not a "take this and this and auto-win"  Its still a game of dice for us.  A marine list might roll 100's of shooting dice in a game and statistics back them up.  We probably roll a 12-20 critical dice for assaults during the game, a few bad rolls hurt if you tank out on CP's or can't re-roll them.  Having a very strong marine assault army in the meta will force changes in other lists that previously did not have to consider anything but a GSC assault list which was OP and got nerfed.  BA are strong but not so strong as to get the attention of that swinging nerf bat.  At least thats my hope

[Morticon]

swords and axes of fists is an interesting one! 

[Panzer]

A marine list might roll 100's of shooting dice in a game and statistics back them up.  We probably roll a 12-20 critical dice for assaults during the game, a few bad rolls hurt if you tank out on CP's or can't re-roll them.

 

 

You mean per unit. A unit of 6 Sanguinary Guard alone already swings with 18 attacks on the charge, 24 on turn 3, and can potentially get even more with Sanguinor nearby or psychic buffs. Not to mention a unit of 15 DC with their 25 quality attacks and 50 Chainswords attacks unbuffed turn 3.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Panzer

[BitsHammer]

Checked: scouts are legit, so one more attack on the Sarge, yay! 4 base, 5 on the charge, 6 on the charge with Savage Echoes (if he lives that long). That brings a 11pts model almost to a Captain level in terms of number of attacks - pretty awesome. Gonna definitely model that

 

The VanVets having TH, SS and CS are definitely a mistake, as only 2 items on them overall are permitted.

While the scout is a strong option, I'm a bit more partial to the Incursors who can do decent shooting if they're not in combat, get a mortal wound inflicting mine, and get just as many attacks (that also explode on 6s) while having more wounds and a better save.

 

But I'm not really a big fan of the all assualt build and prefering the BA as a combined arms army that can hit like a truck.

I don't think many people could recreate his win with his list without an excessive amount of practice.

A large amount of practice and a specific kind of meta as ITC promotes a different playstyle than non-ITC metas.

[redshadow]

He pilot’s the list very well gaming the board and playing the missions and winning the secondary’s points.

 

Well done

[Majkhel]

 

While the scout is a strong option, I'm a bit more partial to the Incursors who can do decent shooting if they're not in combat, get a mortal wound inflicting mine, and get just as many attacks (that also explode on 6s) while having more wounds and a better save.

 

For the same points, CCW scouts will actually give more attacks, as you get 8-9 of them. Exploding 6s might give you 2-3 additional hits on average, which is an equivalent to 1,5 CCW charging scout. You might get more lucky, you might not. Not trying to push any points here, just clarifying. I also believe Incursors are a great utility unit.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

While the scout is a strong option, I'm a bit more partial to the Incursors who can do decent shooting if they're not in combat, get a mortal wound inflicting mine, and get just as many attacks (that also explode on 6s) while having more wounds and a better save.

 

For the same points, CCW scouts will actually give more attacks, as you get 8-9 of them. Exploding 6s might give you 2-3 additional hits on average, which is an equivalent to 1,5 CCW charging scout. You might get more lucky, you might not. Not trying to push any points here, just clarifying. I also believe Incursors are a great utility unit.

 

I wasn't matching points, but rather body count since there is a significant difference in points cost between the two.

 

At the end of the day I just think the old scout models look a bit goofy when paired up with most of the Marine range. They look fine near older models, but with the better proportions and sculpts of even the revamped classic Marines, they just haven't aged well in my opinion so I don't like them as much.

 

Blame it on my focus on painting I guess.

[Drunken Angel]

 

A marine list might roll 100's of shooting dice in a game and statistics back them up.  We probably roll a 12-20 critical dice for assaults during the game, a few bad rolls hurt if you tank out on CP's or can't re-roll them.

 

 

You mean per unit. A unit of 6 Sanguinary Guard alone already swings with 18 attacks on the charge, 24 on turn 3, and can potentially get even more with Sanguinor nearby or psychic buffs. Not to mention a unit of 15 DC with their 25 quality attacks and 50 Chainswords attacks unbuffed turn 3.

 

Sorry my inaccurate description.  I meant rolling dice for charge range.  As you point out, once in combat we can stack our assault rolls to an apocalyptic  level of destruction. 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Drunken Angel

[Xenith]

 

 

A marine list might roll 100's of shooting dice in a game and statistics back them up.  We probably roll a 12-20 critical dice for assaults during the game, a few bad rolls hurt if you tank out on CP's or can't re-roll them.

 

 

You mean per unit. A unit of 6 Sanguinary Guard alone already swings with 18 attacks on the charge, 24 on turn 3, and can potentially get even more with Sanguinor nearby or psychic buffs. Not to mention a unit of 15 DC with their 25 quality attacks and 50 Chainswords attacks unbuffed turn 3.

 

Sorry my inaccurate description.  I meant rolling dice for charge range.  As you point out, once in combat we can stack our assault rolls to an apocalyptic  level of destruction. 

 

 

This is very true. The fact still stands that randomness decides whether we get to attack in assault, while fixed values decide whether a unit can shoot, and that makes shooting more reliable and therefore better. It would be great to see fixed assault moves, like just your move value.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

 

 

 

 

A marine list might roll 100's of shooting dice in a game and statistics back them up. We probably roll a 12-20 critical dice for assaults during the game, a few bad rolls hurt if you tank out on CP's or can't re-roll them.

 

You mean per unit. A unit of 6 Sanguinary Guard alone already swings with 18 attacks on the charge, 24 on turn 3, and can potentially get even more with Sanguinor nearby or psychic buffs. Not to mention a unit of 15 DC with their 25 quality attacks and 50 Chainswords attacks unbuffed turn 3.

Sorry my inaccurate description. I meant rolling dice for charge range. As you point out, once in combat we can stack our assault rolls to an apocalyptic level of destruction.

This is very true. The fact still stands that randomness decides whether we get to attack in assault, while fixed values decide whether a unit can shoot, and that makes shooting more reliable and therefore better. It would be great to see fixed assault moves, like just your move value.

Sometimes I wish we went back to auto charge at 6" or at the very least you moved your charge roll.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

A marine list might roll 100's of shooting dice in a game and statistics back them up. We probably roll a 12-20 critical dice for assaults during the game, a few bad rolls hurt if you tank out on CP's or can't re-roll them.

You mean per unit. A unit of 6 Sanguinary Guard alone already swings with 18 attacks on the charge, 24 on turn 3, and can potentially get even more with Sanguinor nearby or psychic buffs. Not to mention a unit of 15 DC with their 25 quality attacks and 50 Chainswords attacks unbuffed turn 3.

Sorry my inaccurate description. I meant rolling dice for charge range. As you point out, once in combat we can stack our assault rolls to an apocalyptic level of destruction.

This is very true. The fact still stands that randomness decides whether we get to attack in assault, while fixed values decide whether a unit can shoot, and that makes shooting more reliable and therefore better. It would be great to see fixed assault moves, like just your move value.

Sometimes I wish we went back to auto charge at 6" or at the very least you moved your charge roll.

 

 

Moving your charge roll would be very appreciated, yeah. You can declare a charge only when within 12" anyway and the enemy can do Overwatch even if you don't reach him so there's barely any way to exploit it.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

 

 

 

 

A marine list might roll 100's of shooting dice in a game and statistics back them up. We probably roll a 12-20 critical dice for assaults during the game, a few bad rolls hurt if you tank out on CP's or can't re-roll them.

You mean per unit. A unit of 6 Sanguinary Guard alone already swings with 18 attacks on the charge, 24 on turn 3, and can potentially get even more with Sanguinor nearby or psychic buffs. Not to mention a unit of 15 DC with their 25 quality attacks and 50 Chainswords attacks unbuffed turn 3.

Sorry my inaccurate description. I meant rolling dice for charge range. As you point out, once in combat we can stack our assault rolls to an apocalyptic level of destruction.

This is very true. The fact still stands that randomness decides whether we get to attack in assault, while fixed values decide whether a unit can shoot, and that makes shooting more reliable and therefore better. It would be great to see fixed assault moves, like just your move value.

Sometimes I wish we went back to auto charge at 6" or at the very least you moved your charge roll.

Moving your charge roll would be very appreciated, yeah. You can declare a charge only when within 12" anyway and the enemy can do Overwatch even if you don't reach him so there's barely any way to exploit it.

Not to derail here but it wouldn't hurt anything, it would just put you closer. Why in the world they don't allow you to move towards the unit you declared your charge against, or the nearest enemy unit outside of an inch would only increase the playability of the game. It wouldn't break it.

 

I never understood what harm it would make to make that movement. Since you get to move your full distance in a charge anyways. So if I roll a 12 and only needed a 7 I can still move uptown 12" just never made sense to me that something so basic was left out.

[DistractionTacMarine]

 

 

 

 

 

While the scout is a strong option, I'm a bit more partial to the Incursors who can do decent shooting if they're not in combat, get a mortal wound inflicting mine, and get just as many attacks (that also explode on 6s) while having more wounds and a better save.

 

For the same points, CCW scouts will actually give more attacks, as you get 8-9 of them. Exploding 6s might give you 2-3 additional hits on average, which is an equivalent to 1,5 CCW charging scout. You might get more lucky, you might not. Not trying to push any points here, just clarifying. I also believe Incursors are a great utility unit.

I wasn't matching points, but rather body count since there is a significant difference in points cost between the two.

 

At the end of the day I just think the old scout models look a bit goofy when paired up with most of the Marine range. They look fine near older models, but with the better proportions and sculpts of even the revamped classic Marines, they just haven't aged well in my opinion so I don't like them as much.

 

Blame it on my focus on painting I guess.

That’s why I built my scouts with Scion heads. The scout sculpts are fine for the body but the heads are AWFUL and they sit way too far forward on the body, so they always look hunched. Edited March 4, 2020 by DistractionTacMarine

[Shaezus]

Steve Box's army absolutely rocks on board control. I didn't catch what secondaries he chose so I'm wondering if he used the sanguard as engineers or sappers. Worth noting that he started the sanguard on the table in two of the GT games; terrain is an asset to a jump pack army rather than a hindrance. There was a little bit of the novelty factor helping towards some wins, as in the opponents didn't know what the army could do and maybe underestimated its power and durability, for such a mobile list. He thoroughly deserved the wins in any case. Great to see