Watchers of the Throne 2: The Regent's Shadow

[b1soul]

Is there a thread dedicated to discussing this? Is this out yet?

[cheywood]

It’s out as of yesterday and this seems to be the only thread on it.

[Darkwrath121]

I enjoyed it quite a bit. It's packed full of certain surprising appearances and occurrances.

 

Touches on quite a wide spectrum of lore.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Darkwrath121

[Sandlemad]

This is good. If you liked the first one, if you liked the politicking and the weight of history and the portrayal of the Custodes, you’ll like this. Picks up some of the thematic threads of the Carrion Throne books too, Wraight has definitely pulled together something intricate about the events just before and just after Guilliman’s arrival on Terra.

 

Gives a very clear view of how murky in-universe knowledge is, just as the first one did. I like how even the chancellor of the imperial senate dismisses stories of Guilliman consorting with xenos as just that, implausible rumours.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm still part way through it, but having just finished Emperor's Legion I noticed some differences. Aleya feels a bit off in her narration; there's a few times she references her or other SoS feeling things in their soul, where in the previous book she was quick to comment on the lack of one, even when she used it as a literary device.

 

Jek feels weird to me. A large part of it was viewing her through the lense of tieron's PoV, combined with her pride and stubborness of not needing him now. She just feels too callous and cold towards him when she's discussing him. There's a lot of references to how she didn't like his methods or some of his personality, but it kind of ignores the point that he was highly effective and she was one of the people who should have appreciated the efficacy the most.

 

I feel like it's becoming a reverse of the first book; I loved the first two thirds and the last bit was a let down, while the first third of this felt off and the rest of it is picking up again.

[Taliesin]

I enjoyed it quite a bit. It's packed full of certain surprising appearances and occurrances.

 

Touches on quite a wide spectrum of lore.

 

Could we get some more specific spoiler info?

 

I am wondering for instance who the enemy in this book is, and what, in very broad strokes, the book is about, plot wise.

 

Also, what were you guys favorite moments in the book?

Edited March 1, 2020 by Taliesin

[Sandlemad]

 

 

I enjoyed it quite a bit. It's packed full of certain surprising appearances and occurrances.

 

Touches on quite a wide spectrum of lore.

 

Could we get some more specific spoiler info?

 

I am wondering for instance who the enemy in this book is, and what, in very broad strokes, the book is about, plot wise.

 

Also, what were you guys favorite moments in the book?

 

 

Very broadly and in a spoilery summary, 

it follows Valerian, Aleya and the new chancellor Jek investigating the large scale civil disorder that has remained on Terra in the wake of Guilliman's return and after he left to set out on the Indomitus crusade. You have rebellion from the Splintered, a loose alliance of former administrators and arbites who felt betrayed following the High Lords' inability to do... anything during the opening of the Rift, the weeks of blindness and the daemonic invasion of Terra. They set themselves up as warlords, leading increasingly serious attacks on imperial authority across a still very shaky Terra.

 

Turns out these rebellions are being, if not encouraged, then left to grow by some former and current high lords who are opposed to Guilliman, six lords who follow the 'Static Tendency'. The idea is to show how useless his reforms have been, how strong the imperium already was. 'Imperium Eterna' as an unofficial motto, a lawful Lex-bound imperium that doesn't need primarchs or genetic whatevers upturning ten millennia of resilience as they see it. They're earnest, conservative and terrified of change, but are clearly serious about this ideology as their members even include high lords who had been elevated by the primarch (more fool him, is their attitude.) They're led by the old master of the administratum, the one who was feverishly against Guilliman's return in The Emperor's Legion, the one with the memorable speech to Tieron about how humanity had never been stronger. He'd been pushed out of his council seat as part of the post-Rift reforms.

 

Valerian, Aleya and Jek gradually find this out through detective work and foiling an attempted bombing of the new Lunar fortress of the Sisters, which is the meat of the book really. These high lords have pulled in the Minotaurs (whose special relationship with some high lords, possibly the master of the administratum in particular, remains shadowy but it clearly there) to enforce their will on the ground and do what the custodes and Imperial Fists (a company under Garadon) won't. All hush hush, all deniable, despite friction and then open violence between the IF and the Minotaurs over tactics and honour.

 

Then these six rogue high lords, the Hexarchy, basically stage a coup, though of course they view it as resetting the order of things. They let the Splintered amass and launch a full (and extremely devastating to the infrastructure of Terra) orbital assault with the entire Minotaurs chapter and multiple guard regiments to very visibly put the Splintered down. It's a show of strength, to highlight how they can restore order from the chaos Guilliman's reforms have brought. They broadcast a transmission where they proclaim all this with Asterion Moloc at their side, holding the Splitnered leader's head. They make their demands, essentially a rollback to the pre-rift Imperium and the censure of Guilliman, holding chancellor Jek basically hostage and threatening Phalanx with the guns of their fleet. Trajann Valoris accedes and appears to consider their demands.

 

Turns out he was playing them from the start, like a blood game. He'd put Valerian and Aleya in the mix as deliberately incendiary elements to dig up dirt, even though he hadn't told them about their role. The master of the assassins, one of these rogue high lords, was a double agent and actually allied with Valoris. His Vindicares messily kill the Hexarchs while Valerian and Aleya fight the Minotaurs. The new loyal master of the administratum takes charge of the Minotaurs (that special relationship again, seems to be to whoever is holding power and, Jek suspects, tied to the administratum's master), they reluctantly stop and leave Terra. The coup is over, smothered in its infancy. Valoris played the Hexarchy just as they played the Splintered.

 

That's the bare bones of the plot and doesn't get at the actual characters or the politicking and paranoia. Valerian is well done here, he's got a fire and desire to change things up. This make him increasingly alienated from his custodes brothers, not least for having been personally honoured by a primarch. He rather dominates the book in a way that no one narrative did in the previous one. Aleya's strand is fine but not as striking as it was, she's slightly less acidic throughout.

 

Lots of nice little details  and very 40k things too, the kind of stuff Wraight is good at. I enjoyed how the Somnus Citadel of the Silent Sisters on Luna is reopened after nearly ten millennia of being mothballed and they arrive to find a long-lasting semi-feral menial population basically waiting for them with garbled memories/legends of having served them before. But then 

it turns out that when this menial population talk about the 'matriarchs' who served the 'Other King', they are in fact talking about the even earlier owners of the citadel: the Selenite matriarchs we've seen in the later heresy and siege books. They can't tell the difference after 10k years of degradation and worship the ground the Silent Sisters walk on but when it click it's that good deep time vertigo, when they refer to themselves as "of the Soul Night". And of course even Valerian and Aleya barely grasp its significance.

 

I also got a kick out of 

Asterion Moloc answering the custodes' suspicious questions as to why they were on Terra with an innocent "oh, our fortress monastery was attacked and we lost most of our geneseed so we had to seek aid but while we're here, might as well lend a hand...". You know, just like we read in the 8th ed rulebook and Death Guard codex?

 

The custodes, Fists and chancellor Jek glare at them. It's a lie, an obvious one. Valerian knows full well that the Minotaurs are all but openly insulting them to their faces. They're a fleet-based chapter, everyone in the room knows they're a fleet-based chapter, they don't have a goddamn fortress monastery... but politics dictate that all they can do is glare and let the falsehood lie.

 

Which is a neat trick of Wraight's to take what was obviously an error by other background writers and weave it into the mix of in-universe mistruths and politicking, making something interesting. There's a heavy emphasis on what is known, what is suspected, what actually gets discussed and how it's all very different from our out-of-universe perspective. Like how even chancellor Jek outright says that she's heard the shadowy rumours and can confidently say that there's no way Guilliman consorted with xenos, it's transparently ludicrous that anyone could believe that. It's a recurring theme of these books and the Carrion Throne ones. I like it.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

I enjoyed it quite a bit. It's packed full of certain surprising appearances and occurrances.

 

Touches on quite a wide spectrum of lore.

 

Could we get some more specific spoiler info?

 

I am wondering for instance who the enemy in this book is, and what, in very broad strokes, the book is about, plot wise.

 

Also, what were you guys favorite moments in the book?

 

 

Very broadly and in a spoilery summary, 

it follows Valerian, Aleya and the new chancellor Jek investigating the large scale civil disorder that has remained on Terra in the wake of Guilliman's return and after he left to set out on the Indomitus crusade. You have rebellion from the Splintered, a loose alliance of former administrators and arbites who felt betrayed following the High Lords' inability to do... anything during the opening of the Rift, the weeks of blindness and the daemonic invasion of Terra. They set themselves up as warlords, leading increasingly serious attacks on imperial authority across a still very shaky Terra.

 

Turns out these rebellions are being, if not encouraged, then left to grow by some former and current high lords who are opposed to Guilliman, six lords who follow the 'Static Tendency'. The idea is to show how useless his reforms have been, how strong the imperium already was. 'Imperium Eterna' as an unofficial motto, a lawful Lex-bound imperium that doesn't need primarchs or genetic whatevers upturning ten millennia of resilience as they see it. They're earnest, conservative and terrified of change, but are clearly serious about this ideology as their members even include high lords who had been elevated by the primarch (more fool him, is their attitude.) They're led by the old master of the administratum, the one who was feverishly against Guilliman's return in The Emperor's Legion, the one with the memorable speech to Tieron about how humanity had never been stronger. He'd been pushed out of his council seat as part of the post-Rift reforms.

 

Valerian, Aleya and Jek gradually find this out through detective work and foiling an attempted bombing of the new Lunar fortress of the Sisters, which is the meat of the book really. These high lords have pulled in the Minotaurs (whose special relationship with some high lords, possibly the master of the administratum in particular, remains shadowy but it clearly there) to enforce their will on the ground and do what the custodes and Imperial Fists (a company under Garadon) won't. All hush hush, all deniable, despite friction and then open violence between the IF and the Minotaurs over tactics and honour.

 

Then these six rogue high lords, the Hexarchy, basically stage a coup, though of course they view it as resetting the order of things. They let the Splintered amass and launch a full (and extremely devastating to the infrastructure of Terra) orbital assault with the entire Minotaurs chapter and multiple guard regiments to very visibly put the Splintered down. It's a show of strength, to highlight how they can restore order from the chaos Guilliman's reforms have brought. They broadcast a transmission where they proclaim all this with Asterion Moloc at their side, holding the Splitnered leader's head. They make their demands, essentially a rollback to the pre-rift Imperium and the censure of Guilliman, holding chancellor Jek basically hostage and threatening Phalanx with the guns of their fleet. Trajann Valoris accedes and appears to consider their demands.

 

Turns out he was playing them from the start, like a blood game. He'd put Valerian and Aleya in the mix as deliberately incendiary elements to dig up dirt, even though he hadn't told them about their role. The master of the assassins, one of these rogue high lords, was a double agent and actually allied with Valoris. His Vindicares messily kill the Hexarchs while Valerian and Aleya fight the Minotaurs. The new loyal master of the administratum takes charge of the Minotaurs (that special relationship again, seems to be to whoever is holding power and, Jek suspects, tied to the administratum's master), they reluctantly stop and leave Terra. The coup is over, smothered in its infancy. Valoris played the Hexarchy just as they played the Splintered.

 

That's the bare bones of the plot and doesn't get at the actual characters or the politicking and paranoia. Valerian is well done here, he's got a fire and desire to change things up. This make him increasingly alienated from his custodes brothers, not least for having been personally honoured by a primarch. He rather dominates the book in a way that no one narrative did in the previous one. Aleya's strand is fine but not as striking as it was, she's slightly less acidic throughout.

 

Lots of nice little details  and very 40k things too, the kind of stuff Wraight is good at. I enjoyed how the Somnus Citadel of the Silent Sisters on Luna is reopened after nearly ten millennia of being mothballed and they arrive to find a long-lasting semi-feral menial population basically waiting for them with garbled memories/legends of having served them before. But then 

it turns out that when this menial population talk about the 'matriarchs' who served the 'Other King', they are in fact talking about the even earlier owners of the citadel: the Selenite matriarchs we've seen in the later heresy and siege books. They can't tell the difference after 10k years of degradation and worship the ground the Silent Sisters walk on but when it click it's that good deep time vertigo, when they refer to themselves as "of the Soul Night". And of course even Valerian and Aleya barely grasp its significance.

 

I also got a kick out of 

Asterion Moloc answering the custodes' suspicious questions as to why they were on Terra with an innocent "oh, our fortress monastery was attacked and we lost most of our geneseed so we had to seek aid but while we're here, might as well lend a hand...". You know, just like we read in the 8th ed rulebook and Death Guard codex?

 

The custodes, Fists and chancellor Jek glare at them. It's a lie, an obvious one. Valerian knows full well that the Minotaurs are all but openly insulting them to their faces. They're a fleet-based chapter, everyone in the room knows they're a fleet-based chapter, they don't have a goddamn fortress monastery... but politics dictate that all they can do is glare and let the falsehood lie.

 

Which is a neat trick of Wraight's to take what was obviously an error by other background writers and weave it into the mix of in-universe mistruths and politicking, making something interesting. There's a heavy emphasis on what is known, what is suspected, what actually gets discussed and how it's all very different from our out-of-universe perspective. Like how even chancellor Jek outright says that she's heard the shadowy rumours and can confidently say that there's no way Guilliman consorted with xenos, it's transparently ludicrous that anyone could believe that. It's a recurring theme of these books and the Carrion Throne ones. I like it.

 

Wraight certainly has a talent for being one of the writers that actually remembers that the Galaxy is big.

 

Every time I see an Eldar talk casually about a Craftworld on the other side of the galaxy, a guard talk casually about a random regiment they would never reasonably encounter or a Space Marine seeming to be able to rattle off insane knowledge about the nine founders it irks me to high heaven.

[Prot]

I have started with it and I continue to believe BL has to hold on to this guy. He just seems to excel at telling us about very interesting people. And he can make some fairly one dimensional characters very interesting along the way. He did this with Death Guard to a degree I thought would be impossible, he’s done it with Guilliman ( another character that can be rather cardboard like with some authors) and he’s done it with challenging characters in this book. 
 

this isn’t a real spoiler if you’ve read the first book.... but just in case skip this if you don’t have a clue about the first book.....

 

 

Chris has this way of showing us the celebration and celebrity and deep meaning of what these people accomplished in the first book that’s hard to beat. As the imperious celebrates their reluctant revered heroes, you actually feel like you’re there. 
 

I think he brings out very believable angles in some of these characters that makes you want to know  what makes them tick. 

[aa.logan]

I’m an hour into the audio, and I was enjoying it so much that I genuinely considered phoning in sick from work to keep listening to it...

[Taliesin]

I am bummed. I wanted to order it, and the regular hardback is already sold out. Placed my order yesterday and now was told its sold out.

 

Never seen that before with a regular hardback edition. How incredibly tiny and insufficient are BL's print runs? So poor, yet again.

[Indefragable]

I for feel like Chris Wright has a bit of Christopher Nolan to him: he takes what should be completely ludicrous an implausible concepts and grounds them in a certain plausibility and possibility, if not reality. 

[Fire Golem]

Just finished it. Loved it. Been a while since I read the first one but I think I like this one even more than that. Chris Wraight continues to amaze me. 

[DarKnight]

I loved in the first one how the most "human" character we've had a POV from in 40K is the soulless one. Looking forward to tearing into this.

[Kelborn]

Question

 

Do we have any further details about the Minotaurs? Culture, behaviour, you know, the usual fleshing out kind of stuff?

[Sandlemad]

Question

 

Do we have any further details about the Minotaurs? Culture, behaviour, you know, the usual fleshing out kind of stuff?

 

Not in great detail. A lot of it is close to what you see in the FW books, heavy on the unknown. Chancellor Jek knows enough to know that there's a lot of mystery; are they the same as the Minotaurs mentioned in older imperial records, what exactly is their relationship with the high lords or the master of the administratum (there's something there, clearly).

 

 

“Given the institution in which I worked, I could hardly have been unaware of the other widely held belief, that they acted at the behest of the High Lords themselves. You must believe me when I tell you that I could not confirm the truth of this. Some functions of the Council were kept even from their most senior servants. We knew a great deal about the High Lords’ activities, but not everything. Sometimes that was for the best. Sometimes it was a source of profound frustration.

 

In any case, though it might stretch credulity, this is the truth – I did not know for sure whether the High Lords were capable of giving orders to [the Minotaurs]. If there were indeed some link or other, I did not know what form it took – whether the entire Council was required to be in unanimity, or whether some Lords in particular had a hand in their deployment. According to the strict letter of the Lex, there could be no such relationship at all, at least not one that could ever be disclosed. Then again, High Lords often did things that went against the strict letter of the Lex, so all sorts of things were possible."

 

 

Much is made of their swagger and their brutal, dangerous ambience. They're noticeably unrestrained when it comes to collateral damage and discipline, which disgusts the Fists. Even mortals can see how different they are from the other transhumans in how they move and hold themselves. Every second line a Minoutar delivers is a barely veiled insult to their allies.

 

Valoris has the Minotaurs and the Fists assign an officer to his counsellors and when their working relationship breaks down - there was a clash in the field, the IF tried to stop them doing something, two Fists were killed in a firefight - these officers basically go for each other, brawling in one of the chancellor's chambers, smashing everything around them and sending crowds of serfs fleeing in panic. A Custodian steps in and separates them. The Minotaur officer just laughs and strides off.

 

Eventually when Aleya and Valerian launch their strike and fight them, they're not easy opponents. They're fast, brutal, roaring battle cries the whole time. Two of them manage to take down a Custodes, tackling him, dragging him to the floor with their own bodyweight and snapping his spine.

 

Moloc is portrayed well. He's a real monster.

 

 

Moloc looked like some barbarian warlord out of the legends of pre-Unification Terra. His plate was clearly of the highest quality, but had been engineered with a feral aesthetic, one that conjured up images of sacrificial rites and arcane combat-rituals. To look at him was to catch a glimpse of a world of riddles and myths, of burning braziers and bloodied axe heads, of secrets locked within secrets, bound about with labyrinths of iron and stone.

 

Valerian even has his doubts that he could beat him. He knows that Valoris or Guilliman are of course far more powerful but he says that Moloc “exuded the most powerful stench of violence” he'd ever encountered.

 

There's no sudden revelations or surprise details of their culture but it's evocative stuff and gets across their character well.

[b1soul]

Yeah...

was never a fan of FW certain BRUTAL! Astartes chapters but it really is an effective tactic to drum up fan interest.
BL is less guilty of this. I really liked how McNiven handled the Carcharadons and made them savage but not nonsensically superior to other Astartes. I will reserve judgment on Wraight here until I have carefully read through the whole book (I've only skipped around here and there for now).

That said, Moloc is a top-tier combat-oriented chapter master, so there are not a lot of individuals in the Imperium capable of besting him with odds in their favour. Valerian may have felt the same way about facing Dante, Grimnar, Calgar, Tyberos the Red Wake (another BRUTAL! FW favourite), etc.

The Minotaurs also have quite a few Primaris at this very early time, which I believe would be an advantage over other chapters and evidence of special treatment. Also, when the head of the Administratum gives Moloc a command, his behavior is like that of an automoton (Valerian also notices this as the chapter master advances upon him)

Edited March 3, 2020 by Brother Tyler

[StrangerOrders]

Eh...

 

The Minotaurs are shown to be tough throughout the book and quite capable. I also now 100% believe the idea of them being IW descendants as it best describes the weird hybrid of excellence and their needless napoleon complexes. They are also portrayed as greek berserkers which is cool, they are portrayed as terrifying forces of nature.

 

Not really pound-for-pound more than the Fists though, their advantage in the book is that they brought their entire bloody chapter while the Fists have a maimed company fresh from Cadia. The Phalanx is also crippled (although the book implies a few times that the foes are being idiotically optimistic given how quickly they discard it as a threat).

 

Also, you know, the Fists are trying (hard) not to stoop to the level of team-killing pricks.

 

The Minotaurs are hardly untouchable though, their greatest achievement in the book is being able to kill one Custodian in an engagement that sees a few dozen of them dead. They are also shown to pay a steep price for their power, they are dogs on the leash of the Administratum for all that they bluster and insult Custodians and Fists alike.

 

That is another amusing trend in this book, Astartes are deadly but arrogant. They have an almost amusing tendency to insult Custodes to their face while seeming crossed at the fact that Custodes neither care enough to escalate to violence or really take insult. Granted, this also shows the Custodes for almost robotic in situations where the Fists find them to be either naive or heartless. The book very much praises everyone and damns them all in the same breath.

 

The funniest character is Jek, who spends alot of the book talking down internally about literally everyone and doing all the wrong moves at the same time. She is very much a good example of a character that tricks you through PoV to think that she is brilliant and insightful until the rug gets pulled out from under you and you realize that she is an idiot who dramatically overplayed her hand. She critiques Tieron while in the end revealing herself to be a supremely inadequate successor.

 

Weird to say but Aliyah and Valerion are two of the most adorable characters int he setting. Valerion is like a a really friendly and unusually clever Labrador and Aliyah is like a Chihuahua with a zweihander. I love reading about her angry antics and his being one of the dorkiest characters in the setting. I'd honestly watch a buddy-cop show about those two. I might start collecting Talons as an excuse to use their models.

 

Lastly, I think the Sister's long dead predecessors that let the Lecticio out of the prison would kill themselves if they realized that they enabled the fanatics that would eventually destroy their order and drive the survivors into hiding.

 

I am increasingly convinced that Dorn should have put a bolt shell into Keeler and Sindermen when he stood the chance. It is bad enough that they are offensively poor characters girded in plot armor and survive consistent incompetence, their efforts seem to be the root of most things wrong with everything. Being responsible (indirectly) for destroying the sisterhood sort of takes the cake.

Edited March 3, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[StrangerOrders]

Chapters who train to fight like that (as a cohesive unit) should be slaughtering these berserk chapters, but you don't see that in 40K. Just my pet peeve

Feel like you misunderstood what I meant by berserker.

 

The way they behave in the book is extremely destructive and wants violence.

 

Once that violence gets going they are extremely cohesive and disciplined. The book shows them as being extremely effective as squads.

 

They are also not really described as being 'that' melee. They mostly rely on bolters and good fire discipline, it is more the fact that they are against Custodians so they can't do much about the distance and are down to using combat knives and bolt pistols when the Custodians inevitably close the distance. Even then their fighting style is not really 'uncontrolled', they mostly use a rain of blows to gradually breakdown opponents and keep them off-balance. This proves extremely efficient against Custodes (given that they didnt get slaughtered out of hand and even managed to take one down using 'wolves on bear' tactics.

 

They are described as berserkers in temperament but their fighting style is more accurately described as 'disciplined marines with a remarkable streak'. They like to kill and really enjoy it, they are not uncontrolled or stupid about it. Its not a 'World Eaters only exist by virtue of Khorne and Plot armor' situation.

Edited March 3, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[b1soul]

OK, it's the controlled savagery schtick a la the SW in Prosperity Burns. Based on what you said, really don't see why the Minotaur would be scarier or more effective than the IF, who also have great fire discipline.

Of course, I will also read through the book carefully and none of the issues above will really detract from my enjoyment.

[Fire Golem]

OK, it's the controlled savagery schtick a la the SW in Prosperity Burns. Based on what you said, really don't see why the Minotaur would be scarier or more effective than the IF, who also have great fire discipline.

 

Of course, I will also read through the book carefully and none of the issues above will really detract from my enjoyment.

the main reason they’re scarier than the IF in the book are 1. There’s a full chapter of them and 2. They’re opposing the POV characters.

 

They’re nastier than the Fists. Not necessarily scarier.

[Kelborn]

Oh I'm enjoying this Talk.

It covers some of my most fav chapters like the Vlka or the Iron Snakes.

 

But I dare to say that this general topic about the differences between disciplined forces and "mindless" berserkers might be better suited in a different subforum. :)

[Kelborn]

Second kind advice to drop this topic in here and discuss it in a seperate one.

[Taliesin]

Managed to secure a copy through local gamestore :)

 

Other than that, still sold out. 

[rendingon1+]

Second kind advice to drop this topic in here and discuss it in a seperate one.

Is it possible to relocate our posts concerning cqc to a new thread probably titled:

 

Portrayal and realism of close combat in BL fiction? :)