Squad sizes in Thousand sons

[Agerjag]

Ive seen a decent amount of discussion on this but wanted to maybe get something a little more concentrated.
 

I guess there is 4 major ones to talk about and then we can always have a discussion on allied factions (daemons, other chaos ect...) that people like to bring with Tsons. Ill give me initial thoughts but havent played nearly enough games to really have a great idea.

Rubrics: Right now I usually run these in squads of 5 to get more smites. I have been thinking about running 10 mans when I use time as the squad usually gets wiped at 5 man if it gets hit at all that round.

Cultists: Min squads of 10 to fill out battalions.

 

Scarab Terminators: I only have 5 at the moment but have been seeing most people run these in 10s. I am looking to get another set of 5 any advice about these would be appreciated.

 

Tzzangors: See them less and less but if I do see them they are in a squad of 18-30 and with the dark matter crystal. I have been running 28-30 depending on points remaining.

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I bring daemons sometimes to get the changeling. Usually a battalion with one pink horror blob and 2 brimstone for cheap.

Pink Horrors - 30 I want to stay above 20 as long as possible. I think there are likely better strats and I saw a couple tournement list that rely on the splitting to keep an effective shield up for our characters.

Brimstone - 10 mans for cheap fill.

 

 

[Heliomanes]

Good topic. I think it is impossible to have this kind of discussion without specifying what kind of mission setup you are playing. If you play ITC or NOVA missions, for instance, denying 'easy killpoints' or 4 point secondaries becomes a big part of the game, which will incentivize different squad sizes.

[Prot]

I don't know... I do think there's relevance in the topic from a bird's eye view irrespective of missions. Some things die too fast and don't give you much during a game. Some things die, but slower. Something die, but do damage. At the heart of it, I think that's what we're talking about.

 

For example. Cultists. Any format. Are almost useless now except (as suggested) rounding out a Battalion. Very frustrating. GW hit these hard, and even with a points drop I think they are hot garbage in anything that can't make them fearless, and/or recycle.

 

But I use them... because I need the CP badly for my plan in most games to leverage certain strats.

 

Scarab Occult. I would say in any format I would bring 10 because I'm a sucker for them, but I honestly think there is a huge overlap with Rubrics. They both such up the same buffs. They are both enhanced by many of the same strats. But I have a gut feeling the most competitive, hardest hitting list will use zero. (Especially with Facade in play).

 

I play a ton of the new Maelstrom and only ITC around a tournament. Tonight I am playing an ITC game (non-Thousand Sons though) and my list really doesn't change. 

 

Characters are arguably better now in ITC play, but they are the back bone of our armies, and fairly regularly used in high numbers.

 

Tzaangors: Here's where I'm starting to change my thinking. And not because of missions, but because of Sorcerous Facade. I really don't like, nor have ever liked being forced to use goats (So I admit my bias!) but now with the ability to infiltrate Rubrics, and/or Crystal them and/or Facade (teleport) them, I am seeing less use in them. (I rarely use more than 18-20).

 

The problem here is Tzaangors can be good if used properly, but they could be a CP pig. I don't have the CP anymore to fight twice with them, nor do I want to use other strats on them anymore, and that's just a functional adaptation of my list as a result of PA4.

 

Nowadays I am seeing Tzaangors as a necessary shield. Grey Knights did that though.. not missions. Grey Knights have incredible abilities to remove very significant screens and then smite your character core to death. So multiple, low cost squads could come back into my lists if this gets bigger. For right now, I'd like to take Tzaangors out entirely though.

[Agerjag]

Missions can change a bit how you would want to play depending on how competitive your environment is. I was thinking just more generally at first we can likely make a thread on what changes you make to lists in general for certain tournament types. Im all for more discussions :D

 

I don't know... I do think there's relevance in the topic from a bird's eye view irrespective of missions. Some things die too fast and don't give you much during a game. Some things die, but slower. Something die, but do damage. At the heart of it, I think that's what we're talking about.

 

For example. Cultists. Any format. Are almost useless now except (as suggested) rounding out a Battalion. Very frustrating. GW hit these hard, and even with a points drop I think they are hot garbage in anything that can't make them fearless, and/or recycle.

 

But I use them... because I need the CP badly for my plan in most games to leverage certain strats.

 

Scarab Occult. I would say in any format I would bring 10 because I'm a sucker for them, but I honestly think there is a huge overlap with Rubrics. They both such up the same buffs. They are both enhanced by many of the same strats. But I have a gut feeling the most competitive, hardest hitting list will use zero. (Especially with Facade in play).

 

I play a ton of the new Maelstrom and only ITC around a tournament. Tonight I am playing an ITC game (non-Thousand Sons though) and my list really doesn't change. 

 

Characters are arguably better now in ITC play, but they are the back bone of our armies, and fairly regularly used in high numbers.

 

Tzaangors: Here's where I'm starting to change my thinking. And not because of missions, but because of Sorcerous Facade. I really don't like, nor have ever liked being forced to use goats (So I admit my bias!) but now with the ability to infiltrate Rubrics, and/or Crystal them and/or Facade (teleport) them, I am seeing less use in them. (I rarely use more than 18-20).

 

The problem here is Tzaangors can be good if used properly, but they could be a CP pig. I don't have the CP anymore to fight twice with them, nor do I want to use other strats on them anymore, and that's just a functional adaptation of my list as a result of PA4.

 

Nowadays I am seeing Tzaangors as a necessary shield. Grey Knights did that though.. not missions. Grey Knights have incredible abilities to remove very significant screens and then smite your character core to death. So multiple, low cost squads could come back into my lists if this gets bigger. For right now, I'd like to take Tzaangors out entirely though.

 

On your tzaangors as a shield. Would cultists work better for this if its to protect vs smite? or are they too easy to cut down comparatively with other weapons? Pink horrors may be an option also for this type of shield. I guess my question was what makes you tzaangors the right choice for you for this role? Also are you having a tough time denying alot of smites? I feel like we have a pretty solid deny game magnus and ahriman are very good at it. Better with more rubric squads if it gets really spammy:D I havent been able to play grey knights a ton post update but am attempting to set up a game soon.

[Heliomanes]

I think the way you expressed value in that post is a bit simplistic, Prot. Damage done vs damage taken is a part of the game, certainly, but not all. Cultists can work as batallion fillers, and as necessary bubble wrap if you end up having to play something like the aggressor/centurion lists. You'll have to deny deep strike range to have any chance of survival, and to fill this niche you need sacrifical units. If you play kill point missions, however, you will be giving the victory away to your opponent by bringing them. So the unit value is directly tied to the surrounding circumstances, meaning mission types, what kind of list you might expect to meet etc.

Another point is something like engineers. 5 man rubric squads seem perfect for this kind of role, as they are fairly inexpensive, but might survive a volley or two of thunderfire or whirlwind firepower. If you don't play with engineers as a secondary mission though, you might want to spread out your rubrics differently.

I agree totally on the terminators though. They always want to be a big squad to make the most out of their buffs and spells.

I also think you are right that the day of the Tzaangor herd has come and gone. I still get utility out of a 20 man unit though. It's fairly inexpensive and pretty flexible. I often have it in the webway until round 3, then grab an objective or two with them - or start them on the table and prescience/warptime them to take out a culexus assassin. Again, it's not the killing power, but more that it gives me a tool that can fix various situations. 30 seems too much for that kind of purpose though.

Not sure if tzaangors are a good screen, but if you are worried about GK you really shouldn't add in daemons. GK tear those apart with their double damage rule to anything daemonic. Historically more competitive lists have used daemons or death guard units to act as a screen and an anchor for the supreme command detachment of Thousand Sons, but all of those units are countered pretty hard by the resurgent GKs - so we might have to think long and hard about how to fill this role.