Portrayal and realism of close combat in BL fiction

[bluntblade]

I think there's a real question of realism vs verisimilitude here. 40K is inherently unreal or perhaps it's more accurate to say it depicts a heightened reality (in the way that, say, John Wick is not realistic but the action therein all fits within that setting), and I think the combat generally matches that.

 

There is room for a thought-out treatment of Space Marine combat, don't get me wrong - and see my points on how the likes of Wraight and Abnett think through the full implications of how that would look and sound. But I think that pursuing realism in this setting can become a self-defeating goal. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by bluntblade

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'm going to be a bit all over the place with my questions and comments, so please bear with me.

 

 

bluntblade

Posted Yesterday, 11:56 AM

 

 

mc warhammer, on 02 Mar 2020 - 11:06 PM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

great crusade war hounds?

ps. why are the above suggestions in spoiler tags?

Ultramarines and Fists too.

Wait,don't the Iron Warriors do it in StD?

 

Yes...... those guys too

 

 

b1soul

Posted Today, 12:01 AM

 

 

It seems that the effects of bolters on SM has been somewhat reduced by BL in recent years. Marines tend to take a lot of hits before going down (unless it's a precision shot, e.g. to the eye). That makes melee rather inevitable, and I would love to read a BL novel that handles Astartes on Astartes melee combat more like a clash between Greek hoplite phalanxes than individual warriors swinging at each other in myriad mini-duels across the battlefield.


EDIT: Astartes are the ultimate heavy infantry. A large number of chapters should fight with heavy infantry tactics. Come to think of it, extendable power lances or glaives used in formation should be more common than they are

 

I assume you are talking about "heavy infantry" in terms of this.

 

Brother Duhma does comment on that here:

 

 

Dumah

Posted 03 March 2020 - 05:02 AM

 

 

b1soul, on 02 Mar 2020 - 10:31 PM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

See Brothers of the Snake. Near the end of the book, it features a very cool sequence like this.

I know realism isn't BL's forte, but I would like to read about a CC-oriented Astartes chapter that focuses on group discipline, like how dominant ancient armies fought with unit cohesion and army-wide coordination, not as a collection of individual champions or berserkers.

I'm a bit surprised that no chapter closes ranks and presents boarding shields when closing into the CQC zone

 

The great epic battle between the Iron Snakes and the Ork hordes in Brothers of the Snake illustrates your point well. Literarily, it was a fantastic scene. Dan Abnett made this work well for this novel and fit well for the story. But, how realistic was this really? I think the only realistic part of this fight though, was when......

Brother ? (killing me that I can't remember his name) Damocles Squad's explosives expert kills a sizeable chunk of the Ork army blowing up the narrow valley they were in.

 

This works well for this book, but how realistic is this kind of formation.... I don't think very. Even if given the perfect terrain for a spear/gun line (not quite a phalanx, but about as close as we get here) to impede the vast numerically superior Ork hordes ala' Thermopylae (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt as this is not stated in the book) horde armies such as Orks or Tyranids (given their strength and agility and the propensity of not minding stepping on/over or even killing their comrades to get at the enemy) are going to swarm over these formations unless all Astartes are armed with assault cannons to unleash the hellish kind of fire power needed to even slow the movement of these vast numbers of xenos. Also, since Space Marines aren't the only ones who "know no fear" in this universe, they are going to have to kill them to stop them. But, no.... our stalwart heroes are generally using spears , swords and bolters with only a few heavy weapons for support.

 

Another point is the Codex (I'm going to stick to standard first generation Space Marines as Primaris are still somewhat in development and I still haven't figured out optimal use beyond Special Ops and super reserve forces). Chapters consist generally of only one thousand marines divided into groups and bearing war gear that makes small unit maneuver warfare utilizing combined arms doctrine optimal. But, you don't see a lot of this done well (if at all) in the lit either.....sigh. Which brings us back to portrayal and realism.....

 

I'll go back to Brothers of the Snake. Many moons ago, when this book came out and I was a booklegger, this was often the first 40K book I pushed into the hands of my many vet customers coming home from Afghanistan or Iraq. To a person, they all came back for more. What they liked about the book was not the realistic portrayal of combat. It was the professionalism, bravery, comradery, etc. exhibited in the Iron Snakes, and the great writing of this book that drew them. This all combined to make the dubious military tactics not only forgivable, but downright enjoyable. Good writing is the key. I would like to see realistic portrayal of Space Marine combat too, but I also want good writing. But for me the later is more important, and can often make the former more palatable.

 

 

Marshal Rohr

Posted Today, 01:32 AM

 

 

Moonreaper666, on 06 Mar 2020 - 12:34 AM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

Please describe in detail what ‘Run-n-Gun’ and ‘tactical killing fields’ are please. When you say US Marine tactics, what are referring to? Specifically. You keep referencing SWAT, and I’m curious as to what it is you think they do.

 

bluntblade, on 06 Mar 2020 - 12:20 AM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

That is going to be nuked or be hit by plasma balls of death (Sarcasm)

Neither the Phalanx or Navy Seal or US Marine tactics are appropriate for Astartes

Run-n-gun or Tactical killing fields are more their game

Navy Seals, SWAT, Macedonian Hoplites and US Marines would die in the Billions fighting against a few Million Orks

Or perhaps more tactfully: the phalanx tactic is situational for a Legion.

 

Excellent point Explanations or links for these terms and subjects that not all Fraters are familiar with would be very helpful.

 

 

bluntblade

Posted Today, 12:13 PM

 

 

think there's a real question of realism vs verisimilitude here. 40K is inherently unreal or perhaps it's more accurate to say it depicts a heightened reality (in the way that, say, John Wick is not realistic but the action therein all fits within that setting), and I think the combat generally matches that.

 

There is room for a thought-out treatment of Space Marine combat, don't get me wrong - and see my points on how the likes of Wraight and Abnett think through the full implications of how that would look and sound. But I think that pursuing realism in this setting can become a self-defeating goal. 

 

A good observation. However, I think with good writing there is room and possibility for both kinds of depictions of Space Marine combat.

 

 

b1soul

Posted Today, 06:03 AM

 

I found the bad choreography of the latest throneroom fight to be rather distracting

 

Could you expand on this please?

Edited March 6, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[bluntblade]

That last one falls outside the remit of BL stuff, so that might be best answered by PM. I know that fight has some logic issues admittedly, but the drama comes through in spades for me.

[Brother Lunkhead]

That last one falls outside the remit of BL stuff, so that might be best answered by PM. I know that fight has some logic issues admittedly, but the drama comes through in spades for me.

 

"That last one" what? The last question I asked, or something else?

[bluntblade]

b1Soul's comment.

[Brother Lunkhead]

It lacks detail for sure (which is why I asked the question) but, it's not insulting or disrespectful, and is relevant to the topic.

 

It's also ok for anyone to challenge a frater's position, and give them the opportunity to defend and/ or explain it. The trick is for all parties to be respectful, which seems to have been the main problem here

[b1soul]

I'm talking about the throneroom fight in The Last Jedi with the guy spinning away from Rey

[bluntblade]

I was just genuinely worried we were getting off topic. And as someone who loves that film I'm soooooo sick of talking about it.

[Kelborn]

And you are drifting into the abyssial realm called off topic.

Don't give in, brothers. Resist. Stay strong. You will prevail.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Right you are Brother Kelborn

 

I missed the SW reference, so right you are too Brother bluntblade, and apologies to you too.

 

This can be a good and informative topic, if we all stay focused. If anyone has any concerns or questions just PM Kelborn or myself.

[bluntblade]

And you are drifting into the abyssial realm called off topic.

Don't give in, brothers. Resist. Stay strong. You will prevail.

Precisely my worry :chuckle:

Edited March 7, 2020 by bluntblade

[Moonreaper666]

Space Marines use Bolters as a hybrid of machine-gun, sniper rifle and uzi but with none of their weaknesses

-They can make perfect headshots while running 60mph

-They can quickly kill most enemies even behind cover

Those two facts alone make Phalanx formations unnecessary for Astartes. Even the Death Guard don't use Phalanx formations but use Bolters for either killing or weakening opponents to quickly engage in melee

The reason why Abaddon and the World Eaters are so deadly in melee is they don't hold anything back, their strikes are faster and have more power. In Astarte vs Astarte melee one blow could kill either opponent. A chainaxe will easily go through the Astarte's helmet

The World Eaters inflicted more casualties on the Space Wolves. Sure Russ and Wolves have Angron surrounded and ready to kill him, but not before Angron kills Russ and over a hundred Wolves. The death of Russ will severely affect the Wolves while Angron's death won't stop the WE from killing most of the running away SW

Whenever Russ is out of the fight or depressed (like fighting the AL in the Heresy) the Wolves become nothing more than meatshields. This has been going on up to present day, the Wolves are a shadow of their former selves

Meanwhile, the World Eaters are still a Legion in numbers in present day. Individual warband have killed Billions while Khârn kills Trillions

The Wolves' 'tactics' were against the AL and TS in the Siege of the Fenris System. If it weren't for the Grey Knights they would all be dead

Edited March 7, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Kelborn]

There's so much I could adress... But I won't. At least for now.

 

But WEs being a Legion in numbers is... Not even Close to adequate. The WEs are the most fractured Legion and those countless warbands are quite frequently consisting of "recently" corrupted marines and such throughout the millenia.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Kelborn

[Brother Lunkhead]

It would be helpful for everyone here, when making a argument or declarative statement, give specific citations to defend your point.

…… and keep it friendly.

[Marshal Rohr]

Space Marines use Bolters as a hybrid of machine-gun, sniper rifle and uzi but with none of their weaknesses

 

-They can make perfect headshots while running 60mph

 

-They can quickly kill most enemies even behind cover

 

Those two facts alone make Phalanx formations unnecessary for Astartes. Even the Death Guard don't use Phalanx formations but use Bolters for either killing or weakening opponents to quickly engage in melee

 

The reason why Abaddon and the World Eaters are so deadly in melee is they don't hold anything back, their strikes are faster and have more power. In Astarte vs Astarte melee one blow could kill either opponent. A chainaxe will easily go through the Astarte's helmet

 

The World Eaters inflicted more casualties on the Space Wolves. Sure Russ and Wolves have Angron surrounded and ready to kill him, but not before Angron kills Russ and over a hundred Wolves. The death of Russ will severely affect the Wolves while Angron's death won't stop the WE from killing most of the running away SW

 

Whenever Russ is out of the fight or depressed (like fighting the AL in the Heresy) the Wolves become nothing more than meatshields. This has been going on up to present day, the Wolves are a shadow of their former selves

 

Meanwhile, the World Eaters are still a Legion in numbers in present day. Individual warband have killed Billions while Khârn kills Trillions

 

The Wolves' 'tactics' were against the AL and TS in the Siege of the Fenris System. If it weren't for the Grey Knights they would all be dead

If Khârn killed one human being at the rate of one per second, assuming they were in a straight line with perfect economy of movement that produced no wasted time, to kill one trillion would take approximately 31,688 years. So no he doesn’t.

[Kelborn]

=][=

Alright. This one's will be locked for the weekend to give everyone time to make up their minds. On Monday, it will be unlocked for a clear, calm and reasonable discussion.

=][=

Edited March 8, 2020 by Kelborn

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

This topic is once again open for business. Let's keep the discussion calm, reasonable, and friendly.

 

=][=

[Xisor]

The discourse between commenters here is SAVAGE.

 

---

 

This is actually a general problem, I think. In Storm of Iron, I vaguely remember it getting praise and criticism for the very same aspects: it presented a historical siege, with 40k items bolted on. (Boltered on?)

 

Many people liked the faithful, interesting depiction of what sieges actually were like, what had to go into the planning and execution and discipline of winning them.

 

Many people disliked that, faithful as it was, it wasn't really convolved with the "realities" of 40k.

 

I think this applies to actual combat too.

 

It's a bugbear of mine in void war - or space battles as it was classically known.

 

Not that many authors paint it unrealistically, but that authors paint it ignorant of or just ignoring the established principles for the setting. (E.g. as the background and implied intent of Space Crusade and Battlefleet Gothic establish them, and to an extent Aeronautical Imperialis too.)

 

Not generally a serious concern, but it marks the likes of Relentless or Cadian Blood or the Gothic War duology (and even Battle for the Abyss, for flippity's sakes!) out from the likes of Rogue Star or Fulgrim. (Or huge swathes of the Horus Heresy - where the hell are the monumental starships levelling most battlefield conundrums to dust before they need to even consider being fought? Where's the cat-and-mouse difficulty of getting fleets into position? This should be bread and butter for Space Marine Legion fiction, but somewhere along the lines personal combat became The Thing, not the apocalyptic Galactic War that is happening.)

 

I digress.

 

But it's illustrative - the focus on schlock close combat is needed because it's dramatically convenient.

 

Moreover, the intricate logistics of mass warfare is difficult to make exciting, gripping and dramatic reading.

 

Not impossible, but in a cost:benefit ratio, I expect most authors and commissioning editors will favour one far more often than the other.

 

Hence this thread's issues as discussed.

 

But I think there's a market for *more* realism. Judiciously, sparingly, it can be devastatingly effective, and probably do some good work to dismantling some of the more egregious clichés that might irritate the crafty, attentive or obsessed reader.

[Noserenda]

My flow was thrown by the lock but Phalanxes don't work primarily because of everything from artillery down to grenades reeeeally encourages you not to bunch up, even the breaches relatively thin lines are a zm thing.

[rendingon1+]

Thread was quarantined before I managed to post fragments that I find offensive, however what I accidently found on the Internet pretty much sums up what was my initial point. Won't post a link, but if one types: Abaddon isn't a duelist into Google and enters a thread on reddit.... Pretty much a perfect example of what I mean.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Thanks for getting the ball rolling again on this interesting topic, Brother Xisor. You make some very good points.

 

 

Xisor

Posted Today, 03:47 AM

 

This is actually a general problem, I think. In Storm of Iron, I vaguely remember it getting praise and criticism for the very same aspects: it presented a historical siege, with 40k items bolted on. (Boltered on?)

Many people liked the faithful, interesting depiction of what sieges actually were like, what had to go into the planning and execution and discipline of winning them.

Many people disliked that, faithful as it was, it wasn't really convolved with the "realities" of 40k.

 

Storm of Iron was a favorite of mine, but it's been a while since I last reread it..... so I did a little research and read through a bunch of reviews. Yup, it got a lot of praise and some criticism for the same thing, the siege. Looks like the clear majority did like the presentation of the Iron Warriors' siege of of the citadel on Hydra Cordatus. However, it looked to me from the comments that most who didn't like it, admitted to not liking battle descriptions in general (finding it just boring)…. you just can't please everyone

 

It did seem to convolve well to me. How did it not do so for you? 

 

There are also the areas of space warfare you covered that I'd like to discuss, but I've run out of time.... gotta go to work

 

P.S.

 

 

Noserenda

Posted Today, 11:20 AM

 

My flow was thrown by the lock but Phalanxes don't work primarily because of everything from artillery down to grenades reeeeally encourages you not to bunch up, even the breaches relatively thin lines are a zm thing.

 

Good point

 

Gotta run...... 

[bluntblade]

And to be fair, insane speed is one of the great assets of the Astartes.

[rendingon1+]

Why are we considering phalanx at all?

It's not some kind of perfect formation, phalanx is slow (compared to loos formations), reliant on equipment astartes do not use (long spears), requires a lot of manpower, is only effective to the front and is vulnerable to the sides. + as noted before, lots of bunched up astatrtes are a juicy target for any kind of ranged weapon if an enemy has one. And of course phalanx was a product of it's times and style of warfare. It just wouldn't work in 30k+.

 

Oh, and you'd need to tinker with entire order of battle to accomodate phalanx tactic/formation.

Edited March 10, 2020 by rendingon1+

[Marshal Rohr]

Aside from the Iron Snakes novels breaching shields have been portrayed as cover for the squad in close confines. In the Crimson Fist the squads use it to stop small arms and grenades before opening up and charging in with chainswords. In Betrayer the Ultramarines post up at the front of a fortified position as if it’s an aegis defense line and shoot the world eaters until they are in range while vindicators hit them with ordnance from behind. In Vengeful Spirit they’re used as mobile cover to cross a bridge. In Templar Rann uses them to protect himself while he closes the gaps with Word Bearers. To date, the only description of breachers remaining in a locked formation was Betrayer, but I haven’t read every Heresy Novel. That portrayal explicitly made it clear it was a last resort in the context of the story, not the primary squad formation.

 

Breaching Shields in the Heresy come from the ‘Siege Mantle TS’ in the Space Marine Vanguard army list where they are simply portrayed as an ablative plate that soaks up small arms that would otherwise be a threat to the marines soft armor panels. This is different from the storm shield variants and their precursors which is both an ablative plate and shield generator.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[rendingon1+]

Breaching shields - à propos what?

 

You've made an edit but I still don't see how does it impact phalanx topic.

Breaching shields being an additional layer of armour/mobile cover vs projectile weapons - ok, that's what they were made for,sure, though it should be noted that their prime use is for the boarding actions where cover is sparse or non existent, not for "open" battlefield operations.

Edited March 10, 2020 by rendingon1+