Portrayal and realism of close combat in BL fiction

[Marshal Rohr]

Except it has the same functionality on an open field any piece of cover does, except the legionaries armor makes it possible to carry it with them and move with only a slight disadvantage in maneuverability (per rules and novel depictions). It’s an aegis Line the or hesco barrier they are carrying with them, all of which clearly have uses both realistically and in the universe. The only reason soldiers don’t carry heavy armored plates around is simply because it’s too heavy. Power armor negates that, so just because it is anachronistic and not viable for a solider in Kevlar plates doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a use in 40k. It’s made or ceramics, which is impervious to small arms and shrapnel, and it covers the legionaries most vulnerable parts (hips, armpits, neck) when shot at. If power armor actually existed there is no reason someone wouldn’t actually carry a big chunk of the same material as their armor with them considering their rifle can be fired single handedly with no loss of accuracy.

 

 

More importantly, the breacher squads do not fight shoulder to shoulder all the time, and they only move shoulder to shoulder in tight confines. The majority of the time they move and shoot as normal legionary would.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[MegaVolt87]

I think breachers would need far more training and discipline than a tactical legionary. Knowing when to close ranks, hold, advance etc. Not all Astartes are clever enough to do it, which is why some stay at simpler designations like assault. Also while the shields are no complex thing like a storm shield, they must still be complex enough not for standard issue gear. Breachers the most realistic melee portrayal for me.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Solar War implies breacher is a mission specific role when it talks about recon legionaries from mars and reconfiguring as breachers.

[MegaVolt87]

The Solar War implies breacher is a mission specific role when it talks about recon legionaries from mars and reconfiguring as breachers.

I am now very confused. How can light vanguard recon troops/ spec ops ones suddenly be qualified for front line heavy assault duty ? Surely tactical or vets would be more suitable ?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Because they're still Marines, and usually trained in all aspects of warfare. 

[MegaVolt87]

Because they're still Marines, and usually trained in all aspects of warfare.

 

Please elaborate further how covert recon marine units would be more effective in a front line heavy assault role in comparison to dedicated front line units such as tactical squads and veteran squads for breacher duty. That sounds like a good way to throw away such bespoke limited troops in comparison.

[bluntblade]

Because they're still Marines, and usually trained in all aspects of warfare.

This. The typical marine possesses superhuman intelligence, has undergone extensive training and been deluged with knowledge via hypno-indoctrination. They also possess that insane degree of coordination which Wraight talks about.

 

Heck, little as we see it now we've got SoH and Emperor's Children fighting with combat shields, so it seems a fair bet they'd know what to do as breachers.

[rendingon1+]

Except it has the same functionality on an open field any piece of cover does, except the legionaries armor makes it possible to carry it with them and move with only a slight disadvantage in maneuverability (per rules and novel depictions). It’s an aegis Line the or hesco barrier they are carrying with them, all of which clearly have uses both realistically and in the universe. The only reason soldiers don’t carry heavy armored plates around is simply because it’s too heavy. Power armor negates that, so just because it is anachronistic and not viable for a solider in Kevlar plates doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a use in 40k. It’s made or ceramics, which is impervious to small arms and shrapnel, and it covers the legionaries most vulnerable parts (hips, armpits, neck) when shot at. If power armor actually existed there is no reason someone wouldn’t actually carry a big chunk of the same material as their armor with them considering their rifle can be fired single handedly with no loss of accuracy.

 

 

More importantly, the breacher squads do not fight shoulder to shoulder all the time, and they only move shoulder to shoulder in tight confines. The majority of the time they move and shoot as normal legionary would.

Again - phalanx? I don't deny boarding shield effectivnes and I never said it was stupid. In 30k universe of course. I don't get your point.

 

Except it has no same functionality in open field. In ZM your theatre of war would be (in a large part) straight corridors where no cover is available. You have walls and squadies on both of your sides and shields in front of you. Assuming no plasma, melta, high calibre AP weapons are in front of you, you're relatively safe. That's what they were made for. Not for spearheading assaults on open ground, Urban area etc.

And they ARE heavy and unwieldy, power armour or not. There is a reason why breacher squads are specialized formations and employed mostly for ZM. Shield also protects you only on it's facing, in open field you can except fire from multiple angles front, size, above, below. Mayby all at once. Boarding shield also severly limits your manouverability, because of it's size and weight. You can't run with a big ass shield that's almost as tall as you, holding it up front, space marine or not. That's why breachers move at the walking pace, to hold shield efficiently and be able to aim/shoot likewise they can't move fast. Don't talk of "slight" disantvantage in maneuverability because it makes no sense. Rules are rules and I don't see how they are relevant here (only that breacher squad are slower) and if some author represent piece of equipment incorrectly it's no good. BTW your point about boarding shield being used for protecting weaker areas of power armour is a headcannon.

 

Because they're still Marines, and usually trained in all aspects of warfare.

This. The typical marine possesses superhuman intelligence, has undergone extensive training and been deluged with knowledge via hypno-indoctrination. They also possess that insane degree of coordination which Wraight talks about.

 

Heck, little as we see it now we've got SoH and Emperor's Children fighting with combat shields, so it seems a fair bet they'd know what to do as breachers.

Legions had specializations, not every marine is capable of every aspect of war because they weren't trained to do so and that's how Legions operated. Being all rounder is only alpha Legion thing. There were assault companies, mechanized companies, recon companies etc. to which legionary was assigned. He might be reassigned or promoted and learn some new aspect but normally your tactical marine will live and die as tactical marine. Imagine how much time off field marine would have spent if he was to be trained and be proficient in EVERY aspect of legion warfare. That would be just insane. Edited March 11, 2020 by rendingon1+

[b1soul]

When marines charge each other on the battlefield, they're not spread out but they're also not being wiped out by AoE weapons like grenades. If that's case, might as well smash into the group of enemy marines in disciplined ranks with the right gear.

[Marshal Rohr]

BTW your point about boarding shield being used for protecting weaker areas of power armour is a headcannon.

It’s not headcanon. Soft Armor has always been vulnerable. This is mentioned all the time. How do you not know this? You know what is headcanon? That you can’t run with a breacher shield given they just released a book about a famous breacher guy and OH MY GOD he sprints and runs.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[bluntblade]

I don't see why breacher training at least wouldn't be a viable thing to do with a Legionary past his first decade. They absorb knowledge far quicker than a mortal (if not quite to an "I know kung fu" degree), it seems a sensible investment to me.

[Marshal Rohr]

The idea of training legionaries in different roles over time is largely a post-Codex reform. In the GC and Heresy legionaries were frequently outfitted per mission and not based on time in service (Source: Black Books and some novels). There are, however, other novels where the authors have applied post-Codex training norms to legions. As recently as Anuj’s Warhammer tv appearance he talks about Imperial Fists equipping squads based on whatever was needed at the time and even John French who wrote the lore about the Fists having flexible squad configurations wrote about new legionaries being in recon squads so it might be a ‘whatever lore you prefer’ deal. Edited March 11, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Fire Golem]

I could definitely see it being a case of differing between legion, and certain roles. Destroyers for example seem to be a case of if you’re a destroyer, you’re a destroyer, apart from the Blood Angels who rotate through it. It’s been a while since I read Tempest so there might be lore there that says otherwise, but I could see the UM taking that flexible approach with their troops, especially as if it’s a Codex thing later that would come from Guilliman. It makes sense to me for the Fists too. I think the Emperors Children were very much a case of doing one role perfectly though.

 

I don’t think it’s a case of marines were all cross trained, or never cross trained, when there’s essentially 18 pretty different cultures at play in marines in the heresy.

[Marshal Rohr]

That’s my take on it as well. In the Salamanders you could be tactical marine or a tank driver until you die. In the Fists you’re a breacher for battle x, a tactical marine for battle y, and a despoiler for battle z. In other legions like the Night Lords or World Eaters I could see a legionary just picking whatever he likes.

[bluntblade]

We have plenty of instances of Astartes taking damage to the less armoured areas such as joints when confronted by massed small-arms fire.

[Kelborn]

Alright lads, back in your corners.

 

I will not see this thread being closed again because of two fraters alone.

 

I offer the both of ya to discuss this in a seperate private talk with me or another mod of your choice.

 

Both of ya got some points. Keep it civil.

 

Continue like this and I'll lock and review this thread - again. That'd be the second strike before a permanent lock.

 

Thank you.

Kelborn

[Marshal Rohr]

We have plenty of instances of Astartes taking damage to the less armoured areas such as joints when confronted by massed small-arms fire.

 

The first thing that springs to mind is the scene in Know No Fear where the Ultramarine's targeting computer automatically picks the neck, the groin, the armpits, and the eyes as potential targets when it doesn't recognize the Word Bearers new armor colors. 

[bluntblade]

I was thinking grots trying to shank Sejanus.

[rendingon1+]

Ok...

Boarding shield is designed to protect as much body area as possible just like scutum, saying it was developed to protect "soft" armour is.... well. A big misunderstanding and an example of faulty logic. Why do you think Mk3 ws developed? Or terminator project for that matter? And why, oh why, didn't they solved the problem of strenghtening flexible armour while designing it, only reinforced alredy heavier armoured plates? Boarding shields were used because concentrated fire in enclosed area WOULD BREAK "HARD" POWER ARMOUR and there was no cover to minimize the damage. Here, illustration:

Please tell me how much "soft" (you may use %) is exposed on this rendition of mk3 armour used by Breacher squads?

Edited March 11, 2020 by rendingon1+

[Marshal Rohr]

Great idea! One moment...

Here we can see numerous parts of power armor that would be vulnerable to explosives and fire from small arms.

Here you can see exactly half of the armor's weak points are less vulnerable until the shields integrity fails and it breaks apart. Even better than this highly effective illustration, the legionary will more than likely be smart enough to adopt a posture that maximizes that shields proctection, and do things like block tossed grenades, or plant it and duck behind it to prevent shrapnel from getting to his incredibly vulnerable soft armor around the groin.

As for why mark 3 armor and terminator armor have solid ablative plates instead of rings like mark 2, thats because the joins are naturally weak points, hence the forward facing strike plates. Soruce: All the articles about Mark 3 Armor.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

LISTENUP MY BELOVED FRATERS

 

While I love a lively discussion, and this is lively and full of good information it is also full of snark and personal jibes.

THESE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

Before you set your fingers to keyboard and post something that gets this topic locked again, keep these points in mind:

 

1. Keep it friendly

2. This is all about little toy space soldiers

3. You are not going to change anyone's mind on anything, so don't even try

4. Don't take this or make this personal, because.... little toy space soldiers

5. Make citations…. be as specific as possible... book or story titles are fine..... overgeneralized references are not (i.e. "black books", "GW stuff", "GW authors")

6. Keep it friendly

 

That's all. From this point there will only be LOCKS.

 

Did I mention "keep it friendly"? Well...… Keep it friendly.

 

=][=

Edited March 11, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Noserenda]

The thing is, specialisms make considerably more sense in the legions than in chapters. When you deploy in the thousands more of your soldiers can specialise, permanently going recon or biker, whatever they have aptitude for. When your entire force is a coupe of hundred at most you are going to be forced to generalise just due to casualties if nothing else, and super or niche specialisms just fall by the wayside.

[Brother Lunkhead]

The thing is, specialisms make considerably more sense in the legions than in chapters. When you deploy in the thousands more of your soldiers can specialise, permanently going recon or biker, whatever they have aptitude for. When your entire force is a coupe of hundred at most you are going to be forced to generalise just due to casualties if nothing else, and super or niche specialisms just fall by the wayside.

 

Good point. Plus, you are going to integrate your specialists (assault troops, heavy weapons carriers, etc.)into your smaller post Heresy companies for greater flexibility. Specialized Breacher units go by the wayside, since your troop as a whole can be trained in the various uses of the breacher shield to an acceptable level of proficiency.

 

Even today, most military and police forces train with shields (riot and breaching shields both) for a large variety of scenarios to a good to excellent level of proficiency and these are mostly line forces and not Space Marines (except for navy seals and Chuck Norris or course).

 

A few good examples of shield use in 30K and 40K can be found in Brothers of the Snake (long spears too), Shadows of Treachery, and Vengeful Spirit. There are more of course, but these come to mind immediately. Now, whether or not all or any of these examples are accurate, they all work well in the literary sense. One thing to keep in mind in our discussion here is that realism is not always the point. And even though I would like to see a lot more accuracy in the setting, this universe is just a setting in which stories are told. Poor descriptions of military actions can be a huge distraction, especially if the story telling is not that strong, but exaggerated or even fanciful military actions can be tolerated and can even enhance good story telling.

 

….. and one more thing. Although, not an elegant and easily handled piece of kit and generally best used in confined terrain and spaces, I can think of at least one hero in our favorite universe who is a fast paced, shield smashing juggernaut, and that's Alexis Polux, my vote for the Captain America of the 40Kverse.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Brother Lunkhead]

Please forgive the double post, but it occurred to me (occurred that I should have mentioned this sooner that is ) that Primaris formations, such as they are right now, look more like Legion formations, only on a smaller scale. These formations were probably optimal for the huge armies of the Unnumbered Sons, but don't really have the flexibility in formation and weapons loadout that the standard Codex Marine formations do (note: Spec Ops units like Reivers, Infiltrators, etc. are different beasts, so I'm not including them). 

 

I'm somewhat reluctant to bring them up, as I suspect their formations will be tweaked by GW as greater variety of weapons are made available to them. I don't have a good feel in the literature on how they operate. There is a good number of shooty kill scenes in the literature, and there is at least one great scene in Guy Haley's Dark Imperium of an Inceptor Squad jumping in from sub-orbit and landing with guns blazing in each hand (GLORIOUS). There are the Reivers in Robbie MacNiven's Blood of Iax, they are well done (DOH .... I said I wasn't going to mention those guys). Other than that.... I haven't seen much detail. 

 

Anyone have some examples of Primaris fights that you liked or disliked, and why, or why not?

[Xisor]

 

Because they're still Marines, and usually trained in all aspects of warfare.

 

Please elaborate further how covert recon marine units would be more effective in a front line heavy assault role in comparison to dedicated front line units such as tactical squads and veteran squads for breacher duty. That sounds like a good way to throw away such bespoke limited troops in comparison.

Think of it this way, you have 100,000 superhuman sci-fi high-tech psychologically hyper engineered supersoldiers.

 

That recon unit hasn't "trained for years" to become an expert recon unit, they're the ones who *like* it, and in a world of marginal differences between already superhuman soldiers, they're marginally better. Or perhaps they're not better at all, they just had to do what needed to be done.

 

Once the need for a dedicated recon force is over - perhaps because the flow of the war changed dramatically with the appearance of Daemons and heavy telepporting formations in the last half hour - that recon force now needs to go and stand in some corridors, blocking and interrupting progress with only short times to prepare between engagements.

 

But they do have 20 min in which to switch gear, and maybe adjust their sci-fi ultra human psycho-indoctrinated genehanced bioengineered mindsets from "be sneaky and avoid combat" to "tank and speed bump in tight confines with no cover" as efficiently as possible.

 

If swapping camo cloaks and sniper rifles for a normal bolter and a big shield is what's needed, a recon squad can become a beecher squad in however long it takes a Marine to take off a cloak and switch weapons.

 

---

 

This is a thing I think GW too often forget in their own lore - Marines are mercurial, and still quite human - but the actual, notional ideas of what they're capable of, how they're trained, and how they are exceedingly flexible, means that many life-long heavy weapon specialists will only be worse duellists than life-long duellists.

 

They'll have odds-on of being just as good at swordplay as someone who's spent most of their time bouncing about with a jump pack and a flamer, or manning a rhino.

 

I think GW - and Black Library in particular - miss a trick by not playing about with this a lot.

 

Not that all Marines are equal, but that when viewed/narratived from non-Marine perspectives, the diffence between the close combat prowess of a Chapter Champion and an Apothecary isn't readily noticeable.

 

It's just that one of them is tasked - for the mission at hand - with a particular specialism.

 

(I mean, I imagine this stops applying in protracted novel situations where NEW things are happening, and there's no time to share the knowledge/experiences/psychoindoctrination around.)

 

But you get the idea - on a trivial level where skills are determined by *what you're trying to achieve, and what equipment you've brought*, switching things about isn't that difficult at all.

 

I've always had a fond thought that - practically - any Marine is essentially qualified and competent at any job in the Chapter.

 

They might not be possessed of all the specific facts in an accessible way, but if Barry from 9th Company Squad 10 had to, he could "get into gear" to become a competent Chapter Master.

 

He might not be the best candidate in the Chapter, or the optimal one, but he'd be sufficient if necessary.

 

It'd be ones with - say - forbidden and risky knowledge (techmarines, chaplains, apothecaries, librarians) that might be exceptions.

 

Anyone could become a techmarine... But I doubt they would ever stow that knowledge away in some psychoconditioned mental vault. Too much of a risk.

 

Strategic brilliance and logistical competence, however - it's a bit more acceptable.

 

---

 

With Storm of Iron - I really enjoyed it. But at the same time, I'd have preferred the Siege to be a bit more 40k, and a bit less historical just with 40k trappings.

 

But it's a damn entertaining book.