Portrayal and realism of close combat in BL fiction

[Marshal Rohr]

Xisor, that was essentially how John French describes it. They come up from the Martian surface as recon legionaries and trade in their cloaks for their shields.

[bluntblade]

I'd draw the line at command roles, when we've had instances of captains deemed best suited for commands of limited scope (Ophion of the Night Lords springs to mind, while Tybalt Marr or Verulam Moy is spoken of as "a line officer" as opposed to a leading commander) but otherwise Xisor, you make a very good point.

[DarkChaplain]

It seems to me more like Xisor is arguing that nearly every Astartes would have the capacity to fill a command position to a more or less stable degree, if required, especially on an administrative, logistical and battle command level. Of course, those position still lend themselves better to certain dispositions and character types. Personal wisdom and experience still count big time when it comes to distributing those roles. But on a technical level, most marines through the regular training regime (which goes beyond the Scout level, keep in mind) could step up to the plate and do a decent enough job until a proper commander is established.

 

They're capable of doing the job if needed. They'll most assuredly still do worse at it, make mistakes and the likes, compared to types like Calgar, Dante or the like, but they have the core knowledge and competency, both through service (and through that familiarity) and psycho-indoctrination. Whether they'll excel at the job, their characters are conducive to inspiring loyalty and they can hold their own battlelust back when faced with the enemy stratagems is down more to a personal level. But they certainly have a far deeper understanding of what it takes, and how to do it and navigate protocol, than most regular people these days have. I'd argue few could take up the role of their company boss on the fly if he/she contracted a viral disease and had to be hospitalized for a while. They may rise to the occasion, but that's a hope, not an expectation, and most people would buckle under the stress, lack critical information not just in terms of specific info (like you'd have with the Dark Angels, if you were to promote somebody from the line to Captaincy, skipping formal introduction into the Inner Circle), but in the entire process of leadership and what is expected of them on an organizational level.

[bluntblade]

That's a good point

[Brother Lunkhead]

Good points on leadership roles Brothers bluntblade and DarkChaplain, and good citations Brother bluntblade. Brother Xisor covers the argument for the ability of most Space Marines to multitask competently key tasks. However, none of this answers Brother Mega's query:

 

MegaVolt87

Posted 10 March 2020 - 11:40 PM

 

Lord_Caerolion, on 10 Mar 2020 - 11:29 PM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

Because they're still Marines, and usually trained in all aspects of warfare.

Please elaborate further how covert recon marine units would be more effective in a front line heavy assault role in comparison to dedicated front line units such as tactical squads and veteran squads for breacher duty. That sounds like a good way to throw away such bespoke limited troops in comparison.

 

So, I'll take a hack at it In short, they wouldn't be more effective, they'd most likely be less. I'll elaborate....

 

Note: I'll be referring exclusively to Primaris as Spec Ops and Recon was in the past the purview of the Scout company, and neophyte scouts clearly would not have the appropriate training or experience.

 

I'm not saying that they would have little or no training in the area of breacher assault, nor am I saying they would be less competent than assault or line Astartes, they simply don't have the manpower (5 man team or 10 man squad) or the loadout (light Phobos armor and carbines) to perform this kind of mission optimally or without sustaining increased casualties. 

 

As I can't think of a BL story example to illustrate my point (if anyone can please give a shoutout), I'll reluctantly go to the real world for one. In this case, Operation Just Cause (1989-90 Invasion of Panama). As part of the big op, Operation Nifty Package (love that name) required SEAL Team 4 (48 US Navy SEALs) to capture Paitilla Airport. The operation was successful but controversial in that the SEALs suffered very high casualties. It's not that they weren't competent or lacked proper training. They simply lacked the manpower and equipment to perform the task optimally (it was later determined that this was a task more suited to another elite force, US Army Rangers, as they had the manpower, equipment, and actually specialized in that type of operation).

 

The bottom line is, don't send Reivers to do the job of Battleline or Assault Marines. They can do the job but it'll be messy

 

So, as far as story goes, it would be interesting to see this problem pop up or at least be acknowledged in BL literature along with my two pet peeves in Space Marine lit, 40K Marines fighting 30K size battles and taking far more casualties than an elite super soldier unit should. Sure, the bravely dying Marine or just dying can make for good drama, but imo it more often than not makes for cheap drama. But, I'm not going there. Someone else can if they want.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Lord_Caerolion]

If you’re a Recon Marine, and have left a planets surface and are now prepping for shipboard combat due to the pressing situational requirements of the ongoing war, do you keep wearing (presumably Martian desert scheme) camo cloaks and stay armed with sniper rifles for the fighting you’ll soon be doing in cramped, close-quarters shipboard combat, or do you take an opportunity to pick up a boarding shield and bolter, like you know the boarding specialists use even if you’re not expertly trained yourself?
Why would you hamstring yourself by bringing immensely unsuitable wargear just because “herp derp my Captain said I’m a recon marine so I’ll 360 no-scope noobz on a ship lol”? It doesn’t take a tactical genius to realize you’ll perform better with a gear change.
 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Brother Lunkhead]

If you’re a Recon Marine, and have left a planets surface and are now prepping for shipboard combat due to the pressing situational requirements of the ongoing war, do you keep wearing (presumably Martian desert scheme) camo cloaks and stay armed with sniper rifles for the fighting you’ll soon be doing in cramped, close-quarters shipboard combat, or do you take an opportunity to pick up a boarding shield and bolter, like you know the boarding specialists use even if you’re not expertly trained yourself?

Why would you hamstring yourself by bringing immensely unsuitable wargear just because “herp derp my Captain said I’m a recon marine so I’ll 360 no-scope noobz on a ship lol”? It doesn’t take a tactical genius to realize you’ll perform better with a gear change.

 

 

That's definitely a possiblity However, more than likely if an operational commander is pulling his recon troops for breacher duty, he's not in a good place. More than likely, when Recon Rob reports for duty, Brother Captain Fearless strips his camo cloak off, hands him Dead Hero Harry's shield and bolter and says "GO." Recon Joe isn't going to have the opportunity to rearm and re-armor from his own kit.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That’s the thing, they’re not in a good place. They’re in the middle of fighting the Horus Heresy.

This is a case of “the troops here are no longer required in this particular warzone, so rather than leaving much-needed Marines sitting around we’ve redeployed them as necessary, and equipped them with the necessary gear”.

 

It’s also not necessarily the case that the existing breachers are all dead, as the ship armouries would presumably stock breaching gear in case of being boarded.

[Brother Lunkhead]

If we're talking about the Heresy era, they are indeed specialized troops, and if they are redeployed, they are most likely to be redeployed to recon duties in other parts of the warzone. Not to say that they couldn't do it, it's just not likely that they would be deployed to do so.

 

At the beginning of the HH novella, The Purge, we see a force of Word Bearers prepping for a boarding action. When their Captain, Sor Talgron joins them, the gear available to him is a "standard breaching shield".

 

 

It’s also not necessarily the case that the existing breachers are all dead, as the ship armouries would presumably stock breaching gear in case of being boarded.

I didn't say that the existing breachers were all dead. I said Brother Recon was replacing Brother Dead Hero Harry..... poor Harry I'm also thinking that Brother Captain Fearless is thinking, "If I somehow get out of this storm alive, 10th Company isn't going to allocate any more resources to me for a hundred years

 

I'm not saying that your scenario is wrong or invalid, I just don't think it's going to be a common situation..... even in a worse case scenario.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[DarkChaplain]

I still think it's more a problem of aptitude rather than one of qualification. Pretty much every Astartes that's through the training stages and joins the Legion proper could do the job to an adequate degree. Chances are good that in most Legions, they've been trained in it to a high competency level, rather than pre-segregated into specializations. Where they'll primarily stick comes down to aptitude and, I'd wager, the sorting hat when it comes to company/chapter distribution. But that doesn't mean they're suddenly ill-equipped to take up the destroyer, recon or breacher kit and do a good job at it. They just might not do an excellent, outstanding job the same way a veteran of a century would in the same specialization.

 

I'd go so far as to make the argument that practice is a lot less relevant to the Legiones Astartes than we'd think. Most that do frequent the training cages, for example, are doing so out of Legion/Chapter discipline - and the champions of the Chapter/Legion often skip that in favor of other jobs. The ones you really see pushing hard regimens are those trying to especially excell at a role they're already finding themselves good at and have gotten a taste for, like Lucius, Sigismund and co.

 

That is not to say that there isn't a tangible difference between skill levels of, say, Loken and Lucius, when it comes to bladework. There most certainly is. But the difference between them is likely a great deal smaller than it'd be between regular humans. They're so far up the ladder, their contest takes place more in a realm of superlatives.

 

So, in a sense, where a regular person would necessarily neglect other disciplines in favor of their chosen specialty, Astartes start on a much higher base level in all of them, retain high competency in all of them, but may, to taste, push one or a few of them a couple of steps further than their brethren, without taking away from the already achieved high competency across the rest. And rather than this baseline being rudimentary enough to make them questionable choices for the job, it should be perfectly adequate for the task by default, even if they don't specialize in it exactly.

 

With a wide range of available troops, you'll obviously prefer a force made up specifically of those dudes who love that particular combat role, as they've put more stat points into it already, but not having those available and picking Brother Average doesn't do as much to hamper combat effectiveness as it might appear. He's still a superhuman combatant who knows how to handle the equipment, the task at hand and will generally remain disciplined and do his duty as expected of him.

[Gederas]

In regards to portrayal of close combat, I still really like the scene in AD-B's third Night Lords novel, Void Stalker, where Xarl goes mano-a-mano against a (iirc) a Terminator-armoured Genesis Chapter Champion. Probably my favorite scene in that entire series.

 

Was it realistic? With how Aaron's shown he researches stuff, probably!

Was it awesome? Hell yes!

[StrangerOrders]

I wanted to chime in real quick to ask what folks think of different Legions approaches to training.

 

The Black Books delve heavily on Legion Hierarchy across the chart, training and so on and it marks out that Legions approach things in markedly different fashions.

 

The most curious one to me is Mortarion, as he had the Deathguard basically drill in fulfilling every possible squad type in a pinch, so your recon squads had some background as heavy support, assault, support, etc. So if you had the wargear, your force could basically reconfigure as needed by each battle.

 

This contrasts heavily to me with how say the Ravenguard do things and you get put into streams pretty early on. The most notable example being the segregated training for Assault and Terminator squads as opposed to mainline troops (who were so interchangeable with Recon squads that the insetting writer admits its hard to distinguish).

 

Then you have odd cases like the Space Wolves or the Scars where your wargear and training is just a virtue of your pack's preference and what you earn through merit rather than a general cohesive layout.

 

Or you have outliers, like the Sons entire doctrine on training basically being 'how heavy are the psychic dumbells you can lift bro?'.

 

Which approach do you think makes most sense from the perspective of an Astartes skillset? It honestly seems to me that you are wasting design space going with anything but the first approach given that you are going out of your way to give them advanced learning capacity, mental functions and photographic memory. Not sure what use there is in that capacity if you arent encouraging them to be as broadly trained as possible.

 

In terms of realism, does anyone else ever feel like writers are poor at having Astartes characters actually reflect their enhancements?

 

I do not mean that the writers need to be geniuses, because they are very happy to handwave how things work often. I mean when they do things like actively describe characters as book-dumb... which does not really make sense to me given that, as written, Astartes should be terrifyingly intelligent as a default. Yet the writers seem weirdly attracted to the 'dumb brute' archetype and make a shocking amount of Astartes illiterate. We have IW Praetors that act super proud of recalling how many tanks they have, World Eaters that can't read (Pre-Chaos), etc. They also have an odd habit of doing things like forgetting that every gene-line should be able to see in the dark by default...

 

This is hardly unique to BL, but it feels like fiction writers in general tend to regularly forget the supernatural elements they themselves slotted into characters.

Edited March 14, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Brother Lunkhead]

I wanted to chime in real quick to ask what folks think of different Legions approaches to training.

 

The Black Books delve heavily on Legion Hierarchy across the chart, training and so on and it marks out that Legions approach things in markedly different fashions.

 

The most curious one to me is Mortarion, as he had the Deathguard basically drill in fulfilling every possible squad type in a pinch, so your recon squads had some background as heavy support, assault, support, etc. So if you had the wargear, your force could basically reconfigure as needed by each battle.

 

This contrasts heavily to me with how say the Ravenguard do things and you get put into streams pretty early on. The most notable example being the segregated training for Assault and Terminator squads as opposed to mainline troops (who were so interchangeable with Recon squads that the insetting writer admits its hard to distinguish).

 

Then you have odd cases like the Space Wolves or the Scars where your wargear and training is just a virtue of your pack's preference and what you earn through merit rather than a general cohesive layout.

 

Or you have outliers, like the Sons entire doctrine on training basically being 'how heavy are the psychic dumbells you can lift bro?'.

 

Which approach do you think makes most sense from the perspective of an Astartes skillset? It honestly seems to me that you are wasting design space going with anything but the first approach given that you are going out of your way to give them advanced learning capacity, mental functions and photographic memory. Not sure what use there is in that capacity if you arent encouraging them to be as broadly trained as possible.

 

In terms of realism, does anyone else ever feel like writers are poor at having Astartes characters actually reflect their enhancements?

 

I do not mean that the writers need to be geniuses, because they are very happy to handwave how things work often. I mean when they do things like actively describe characters as book-dumb... which does not really make sense to me given that, as written, Astartes should be terrifyingly intelligent as a default. Yet the writers seem weirdly attracted to the 'dumb brute' archetype and make a shocking amount of Astartes illiterate. We have IW Praetors that act super proud of recalling how many tanks they have, World Eaters that can't read (Pre-Chaos), etc. They also have an odd habit of doing things like forgetting that every gene-line should be able to see in the dark by default...

 

This is hardly unique to BL, but it feels like fiction writers in general tend to regularly forget the supernatural elements they themselves slotted into characters.

 

Brother Stranger, you've made some excellent observations

 

As far as which approach makes most sense, I think we could all debate that one until the end of entropy. It seems to me that the Legions/Chapters are what they are and we and the writers have to deal with them within those boundaries. Pretending for a moment that all of this is real it's going to be up to the Legion/Chapter leadership to  optimize the strengths and turn the perceived weakness to their advantage with strategic, tactical, and logistical acumen. Hopefully, a good writer will keep these things in mind.... unfortunately, that's not always the case even with otherwise good writers. I don't want my White Scars fighting and looking like Ultramarines in white power armor, or visa versa. It also irritates me when I see a 1000 man Chapter, fighting like a 100,000 man Legion, or other wasteful practices. An example of poor and wasteful use of Space Marines is Graham McNiell's (sorry Graham) Warriors of Ultramar, Where.....

while fighting the Tyranid hordes on Tarsis Ultra, Captain Ventris has his forces join the PDF to bolster the line and moral, turns command over to Sergeant Learchus Abantes, tells him ,"It'll be alright and goes off on a joyride with the Deathwatch to save the day.....sigh.

 

Once again, sorry Graham, I generally find your stuff a joy to read, but sometimes But, to be fair, sometimes this kind of nonsense works. Dan Abnett did it well in Brothers of the Snake, where the Iron Snakes are fighting Ork hordes, in static lines with bolters, harpoons, and shields. That scene was a hoot and a half. It was unrealistic as all get out, but fun to read.....and it worked. So why did it work for Dan and not for Graham? I think it was a combination of style, timing, and immersion in the culture. Especially the later. The Ultramarines are patterned after the Romans, disciplined, practical, yet innovative (….and BLUE), so you wouldn't expect them to do dumb, off the wall stuff like in Warriors of Ultramar. The Iron Snakes on the other hand, are Greek Hoplites, so you could envision them doing the line bash (yeah... I know it's oversimplified) with the Orks, and by the time you scratch your head, do a double take, and say, "Hey, wait a minute there...." it's too late. You've already finished the book, and you loved it.

 

In terms of realism, does anyone else ever feel like writers are poor at having Astartes characters actually reflect their enhancements?

 

I'd say yes to that. But apparently sometimes they can get away with it so long as they respect the overall aspect and personality of the particular Marines that are the subject. So I think that if the writers respect the overall abilities of the Astartes set down in canon, and properly immerse themselves in the cultures of the chapter(s) they are writing about we would all get a better product and we could at least perceive it as realistic, until at least we realize we've been hoodwinked by good writing

Edited March 15, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[MegaVolt87]

If you’re a Recon Marine, and have left a planets surface and are now prepping for shipboard combat due to the pressing situational requirements of the ongoing war, do you keep wearing (presumably Martian desert scheme) camo cloaks and stay armed with sniper rifles for the fighting you’ll soon be doing in cramped, close-quarters shipboard combat, or do you take an opportunity to pick up a boarding shield and bolter, like you know the boarding specialists use even if you’re not expertly trained yourself?

Why would you hamstring yourself by bringing immensely unsuitable wargear just because “herp derp my Captain said I’m a recon marine so I’ll 360 no-scope noobz on a ship lol”? It doesn’t take a tactical genius to realize you’ll perform better with a gear change.

 

No you take a combi bolter instead and go in after/ infiltrate through un conventional routes like ventilation, maintenence acess etc in ship combat. Spec ops troops dont fight fairly or conventionally, thats the job. Recon/ seekers are too specalized to throw away as breachers when you can send in vets or tac squads to do it instead. Some legion tac squads are basicly vets anyway as well. Edited March 14, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Brother Lunkhead]

Well said ........ BUT, this breacher thing is becoming a bit competitive and off track from the original intent. I suggest we give it a rest for now and get back to the general discussion which is more about BL writing and less about military theory and doctrine. Sooo…… who do you think does this best and why? A LOT of the first (writing stuff) and a little of the other (military stuff)

Edited March 14, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Moonreaper666]

 

If you’re a Recon Marine, and have left a planets surface and are now prepping for shipboard combat due to the pressing situational requirements of the ongoing war, do you keep wearing (presumably Martian desert scheme) camo cloaks and stay armed with sniper rifles for the fighting you’ll soon be doing in cramped, close-quarters shipboard combat, or do you take an opportunity to pick up a boarding shield and bolter, like you know the boarding specialists use even if you’re not expertly trained yourself?

Why would you hamstring yourself by bringing immensely unsuitable wargear just because “herp derp my Captain said I’m a recon marine so I’ll 360 no-scope noobz on a ship lol”? It doesn’t take a tactical genius to realize you’ll perform better with a gear change.

No you take a combi bolter instead and go in after/ infiltrate through un conventional routes like ventilation, maintenence acess etc in ship combat. Spec ops troops dont fight fairly or conventionally, thats the job. Recon/ seekers are too specalized to throw away as breachers when you can send in vets or tac squads to do it instead. Some legion tac squads are basicly vets anyway as well.

In a short story, a squad of IF recon marines inflitrate an IW-affliated Traitor Titan during the Battle of Tallarn. They suicide-bomb the Titan before they are killed by Chaos Skitarii.

 

In Solar War, the Sons of Horus spread their troops out and aggressively blitzing when facing the Skitarii, Imperial Army and Loyal Space Marines.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead
provocative

[bluntblade]

In terms of literary execution, I have to go for the usual suspects in AD-B, Wraight, French and Abnett. Those four put plenty of thought into both the superhuman potential of the combatants (and factors like how noisy a Space Marine is in battle), and the emotions in which a given battle is grounded.

Edited March 15, 2020 by bluntblade

[Marshal Rohr]

Just to clear something up, recon legionaries are not analogous to modern day special operations forces. They’re just reconnaissance elements. Like a cav scout, etc, etc. A little bit of video game is seeping into the discussion.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Just to clear something up, recon legionaries are not analogous to modern day special operations forces. They’re just reconnaissance elements. Like a cav scout, etc, etc. A little bit of video game is seeping into the discussion.

 

Good points  …… However, direct analogies between real world military ops/doctrine and Space Marine ops are best used as loose references. There's a lot of overlap. Space Marine Scouts are a good example. These neophytes primarily operate as forward scouts and also perform unconventional warfare ops behind enemy lines as necessary. They can best be understood in these role by comparing them to such modern day elements such as U.S. Marine Force Recon. But, once again, it's not a direct comparison, just a reference.

 

When a writer does good research these real world elements come through and lend a sense of authenticity to their stories. Some example of this (while we are on the subject of scouts) can be found in the audio dramas Eye of Vengeance, The Heart of the Pharos, and the HH novel, Pharos.

 

Brother Marshal is spot on about the video game seepage 

 

 

bluntblade

Posted Yesterday, 07:06 PM

 

 

In terms of literary execution, I have to go for the usual suspects in AD-B, Wraight, French and Abnett. Those four put plenty of thought into both the superhuman potential of the combatants (and factors like how noisy a Space Marine is in battle), and the emotions in which a given battle is grounded.

This would be something good to expand on. Care to anyone,.... Brother bluntblade?

[bluntblade]

I'll get on it when I have my laptop to hand.

[bluntblade]

OK, I think I'm ready to talk about emotion coming through in an action scene, and how the question of realism comes in.

 

So there's a scene in Warhawk of Chogoris where the Khan goes into full Musou Mode at the death of a beloved friend and follower. On the one hand it's a showcase of his power and prowess... but that's not actually what Chris Wraight is interested in here. What he's actually getting into is what it would mean to see this kind of demigod in action, as well as demonstrate the depth of feeling the Khan has for his sons (which informs how their deaths weigh on him during later stories).

 

And what we get is a scene where, having rooted for our heroes as they fought a gruelling war against Orks... we find that we start to feel kind of sorry for the Orks. Wraight isn't actually going into that much detail about the Khan's moves in an effort to flag up how badass he is. Instead he's going for emotion, actually obscuring Jaghatai behind the tempest of blood he throws up and then having the grand finale of the fight unfold in the dark, effectively offscreen.

 

Moreover, it's rooted in the reaction of the other characters who are present, which informs our own reaction. The Astartes who witness the slaughter are awestruck, but they're not inspired for the most part - the one Luna Wolf who tries to follow is actually held back. This reinforces the essential otherness of Jaghatai, and adds to the sense of him being somewhat alone in the Galaxy (see Rogal Dorn's conversation with Garviel Loken back at the start of this series).

 

So, tying this back to realism, this is some way towards the other end of the axis. In film they call this Formalism, I'm not sure if that tag applies in prose however. Wraight, I think, is consciously leaning into how unreal what's unfolding here is, especially the notion that the Khan is moving so quickly that the blood he spills doesn't even have time to fall. Wraight is purposely playing up that the Khan isn't just a creature of physics, and that he's something else. And from that, despite us looking from the outside instead of having his POV, we get a surprising amount of information about his character. That he is fundamentally different from even the superhuman killing machines we're more familiar with.

 

 

Compare and contrast with the Imperial Fists' appearance in The Hollow Mountain, in which the perspective is that of a mortal soldier and Wraight is communicating how the Astartes surpass such troops.

Edited March 15, 2020 by bluntblade

[Brother Lunkhead]

bluntblade

Posted Yesterday, 03:15 PM

 

….So, tying this back to realism, this is some way towards the other end of the axis. In film they call this Formalism, I'm not sure if that tag applies in prose however.

 

Actually, what you are describing can be seen in terms of literary formalism more so than cinematic formalism. Nicely done there

 

Another example of this can be found in Brothers of the Snake (sorry for referencing this so much, but I've read it so many times, I've practically got it memorized):

 

In a seen from Part One: Undertaking at Baal Solok, Brother Priad saves Primary Clerk Antoni from a band of "Primals" (Dark Eldar). Antoni describes Priad inserting himself between herself and the Primals as if he were "edited in". He was so fast that she didn't see him coming. She only saw him not there, then there. What comes next can best be described as a ballet of death as Priad gracefully and seamlessly dispatches each one (six or seven) in a time span of what Antoni recalls as no more than three seconds.

 

This scene could have been described in many ways to move the story on, but the detailed focus gives the reader a bold look at what makes an Astartes such a singular warrior and killing machine. Also given the training and physical characteristics of a Space Marine, it's not an unrealistic portrayal either.

Edited March 16, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[b1soul]

Yeah, Brothers of the Snake is one of the impressive depictions of SM.

 

In subsequent BL works, I think Eldar are typically portrayed as significantly faster than SM. In the Fulgrim primarch novella, Cyrius is defeated by a gang of mortal human duelists who have studied his style.

[Moonreaper666]

Yeah, Brothers of the Snake is one of the impressive depictions of SM.

 

In subsequent BL works, I think Eldar are typically portrayed as significantly faster than SM. In the Fulgrim primarch novella, Cyrius is defeated by a gang of mortal human duelists who have studied his style.

I think when Astartes are outnumbered they sometimes slow down or be more meticulous about their speed, especially against Daemons and Eldar. In war one wrong move can result in instant death, even for a Marine

 

Using the Phalanx a few times against Orks is ok (Orks do learn and can negate Phalanx) but I don't think it would work on other enemies such as Eldar, Tau or Necrons

 

In the few books I've read, Marines have a little or some distance between each other as the standard battle formation, covering as much area for their guns. A Meltagun can only hit one Marine at a time since they are distancing from each other, so would any Plague Weaponry or Nurgle's Super-Coronavirus

[Xisor]

bluntblade

Posted Yesterday, 03:15 PM

 

….

So, tying this back to realism, this is some way towards the other end of the axis. In film they call this Formalism, I'm not sure if that tag applies in prose however.

 

Actually, what you are describing can be seen in terms of literary formalism more so than cinematic formalism. Nicely done there

 

Another example of this can be found in Brothers of the Snake (sorry for referencing this so much, but I've read it so many times, I've practically got it memorized):

 

In a seen from Part One: Undertaking at Baal Solok, Brother Priad saves Primary Clerk Antoni from a band of "Primals" (Dark Eldar). Antoni describes Priad inserting himself between herself and the Primals as if he were "edited in". He was so fast that she didn't see him coming. She only saw him not there, then there. What comes next can best be described as a ballet of death as Priad gracefully and seamlessly dispatches each one (six or seven) in a time span of what Antoni recalls as no more than three seconds.

 

This scene could have been described in many ways to move the story on, but the detailed focus gives the reader a bold look at what makes an Astartes such a singular warrior and killing machine. Also given the training and physical characteristics of a Space Marine, it's not an unrealistic portrayal either.

That always irritated me immensely - like the rest of the damned book.

 

Whilst it bigs up Space Marines immensely, it makes Dark Eldar look like lumbering fools in comparison, which doesn't square at all.

 

Eldar were already lightning fast with super reflexes, Abnett doesn't portray an immense & tight superhuman conflict, he makes one supreme and the other a fool.

 

I'm still not - and have never been - convinced that "downplaying" the Dark Eldar was necessary.

 

Indeed, such is my conviction on it, it doesn't read like Abnett wrote an awesome scene, it reads like he wrote HALF of an awesome scene, and then stopped.

 

Same with the Orks versus Phalanx.

 

It's nice to see Marines use sensible formations.

 

But it doesn't ring true when one of the fiercest, most regularly underestimated foes in a galaxy of fierce, underestimatable foes... Just runs right at it.

 

And slowly attempts to flow round the sides.

 

It's always bugged me that.

 

Like showing a Primarch's genius by having them outwit a big standard foe, or showing a Primarch's hubris by having them walk into a bone-headed trap.

 

To me, it doesn't ring true at all.

 

In fact, it rings much more false than just not showing the thing in the first instance.

 

---

 

Ever listen to Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds? When the Artilleryman describes his vision of utopia, his grand celebration of how they can rebuild and take the fight to the Martians?

 

And then he shows the narrator the scant few feet of shoddy tunnel he's scraped over the course of many days?

 

That's the feeling I get from those sort of scenes.

 

Look how awesome this Space Marine is!

 

Then delivers a page of Nykona Sharrowkyn.

 

It makes for a sad Xisor.

 

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Edit: by contrast, Dan does quite a satisfyingly different feat in "Titanicus", where the human perspective on duelling Titans is immense - but that's equivalent to Marine vs Marine, not Marine vs other sensible opponent. Which is where books like Brothers of the Snake vex me incredibly.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Xisor