Are Tempestus Scions viable solo?

[SpiritFox22]

Hey guys I'm starting to get back into the 40k hobby/game, with the last time I played was mid 7th ed I think back when Skitarii were released, and was looking to start a new army.  Which the Scions getting new rules caught my interest.  Not so much the rest of the IG range.

 

Mostly since I'm 100% unfamiliar with the 7/8th ed changes (Books are on the way) I was wondering if they'd be a decent army to run solo and do ok in casual games while still being able to win roughly 1/3rd of comp games.

 

Is there any big pitfalls, weapons/gear/strats, I should avoid in general running an army like this?  (I'm used to my Wolves being a hammer back in 7th thanks to TWC.)

Edited March 6, 2020 by SpiritFox22

[CaptainMarsh]

They are perfectly fine in casual games. In competitive games they don't tick enough boxes to be considered necessarily *competitive* solo in a large tournament, but I for sure like them and think they are a ton of fun to play. They can hit exceptionally hard for their point cost but are limited in a number of ways. Plasma Guns are a mainstay of the list and can handle a variety of tasks very well. Melta guns can do work against vehicles. Hot-Shot Volley Guns are heavy, but can answer light and medium infantry well. 

You can use  a Valkyrie and those are great. The Taurox Prime is good, if not entirely cost effective. Scions are good troops for 7 points and can punch above their weight but they require good positioning and a strong sense regarding how to manipulate them to get good results.
 

In terms of avoiding things, it comes down how you want them to play, how you want the to feel, and what regimental rules you want to use.

[tychobi]

100% viable for casual games. Pitfall #1 would be over spending on upgrades. Elite armies suffer in resiliance so be aware and bring enough wounds to take a punch. 8th is brutal, everything dies.

[GrinNfool]

Scions should work fine for casual games, would suggest running two different regiments though, one to be on table and one to handle your deepstriking, as different regiments are better at different things, and only half your army unit count/points/power level can be in DS.  Scions as a whole hit hard, are low model count (for guard, you will still have more models than most elite armies), more expensive on points, and for an elite army can be squishy at t3 4+.  That said, sometimes they can be resilient buggers taking way more fire than they have any right to before going down.  In cover + take cover strat gives 2+ saves.  Have had many times I would have bet against a squad living only to have the survive through a round. 

 

On tychobi's post, its hard to over spend on scions, with DS you know you are getting the alpha, and its almost always worth putting special weapons on them, on other elite armies I would agree, not scions, gear them out (not vox) get your kills then let them die, scions can be extremely points efficient, but they require you to be paying attention and use them well, more so than most elite armies IMO.

 

One of the biggest pitfall of pure scions though IMO is the taurox prime.  If you are running pure scions you are pretty much obligated to take it, could take tons of valks but that has its own problems.  At 10 wounds, t6, all its weapons being heavy, and costing almost as much as a Russ, its... not a great vehicle to be saddled with.  Gatling HSVG for your actual transports, and they double as ok horde clearing.  MIssile Autocannons for your fire support wannabe russes.  They are about 15-20 points over costed each, and in a pure list you will be bringing 4-6, so to me you burn 80-120 points in a pure scion list.

 

I find they run best with some help, even if its normal guard.  I traditionally have ran them with my DW or admech for good effect, more recently I have been running 3 tank commanders with them and that has produced some very nice results for me.  If you are dead set on pure scions though, at least run two different regiments catered to what the squads should do.  IE dragons all DS and handle all plasma, lambdan/kappic are on the table and handle taurox duty, something like that.

 

Casual games a well played scion list can win you a lot of matches, competitive... really depends what you are up against, some match ups are auto lose, some are auto win, and a few will be a good fight, most of that is par for the course with competitive.  PA5 hasn't been out long enough for me to hazard a guess at their win rate though, pre pa5 I would guess around 25-35% somewhere, maybe a little higher, I tended to do well, but I always ran something else with them, not pure.

Edited March 6, 2020 by GrinNfool

[NatBrannigan]

If you're happy to branch out away form Pure Scions there are some good thematic units you could add.

 

Inquisitors come with some neat tricks and really fit well with Scions. Ditto Assassins. I'm not sure they'll be able to push you to winning 1/3 against really competative lists but it's good to have more choices available.

 

Maybe something like a Knight and a pair of Hellverins? That's really branching out by I think they look good togehter on the table at the very least!

[CaptainMarsh]

A lot of it comes down to how pure the Scion Solo thought is. There are a lot of elements you can add to them if not solo, of course.

@GrinNfool- I'm actually gonna disagree with you a *little* on the Prime. I bring 6 sometimes and don't look at myself as being saddled with them.They tend to be 10-15 points more expensive than I'd want them to be but in my 2k Ground and Pound Scion list I have't run into a situation where I wanted to bring something else that would help me win and found myself unable to because of 60-90 inefficiently spent points. I find the firepower to be worth the cost most of the time. Being able to hunt down specific armored targets at range or chew through hordes and medium infantry pretty effectively. Of course I also played Lambda Lions the seven games I've gotten in with them since PA5 dropped. AP-3 Krak Missiles, AP-2 Autocannons? Vehicles are unhappy. Taurox Gatling Cannon with AP-1? HSVG with AP-3? Storm Bolters with AP? Pretty cool stuff.

 

[librisrouge]

I’ll find out tomorrow.

[SpiritFox22]

Scions should work fine for casual games, would suggest running two different regiments though, one to be on table and one to handle your deepstriking, as different regiments are better at different things, and only half your army unit count/points/power level can be in DS.  Scions as a whole hit hard, are low model count (for guard, you will still have more models than most elite armies), more expensive on points, and for an elite army can be squishy at t3 4+.  That said, sometimes they can be resilient buggers taking way more fire than they have any right to before going down.  In cover + take cover strat gives 2+ saves.  Have had many times I would have bet against a squad living only to have the survive through a round. 

 

On tychobi's post, its hard to over spend on scions, with DS you know you are getting the alpha, and its almost always worth putting special weapons on them, on other elite armies I would agree, not scions, gear them out (not vox) get your kills then let them die, scions can be extremely points efficient, but they require you to be paying attention and use them well, more so than most elite armies IMO.

 

One of the biggest pitfall of pure scions though IMO is the taurox prime.  If you are running pure scions you are pretty much obligated to take it, could take tons of valks but that has its own problems.  At 10 wounds, t6, all its weapons being heavy, and costing almost as much as a Russ, its... not a great vehicle to be saddled with.  Gatling HSVG for your actual transports, and they double as ok horde clearing.  MIssile Autocannons for your fire support wannabe russes.  They are about 15-20 points over costed each, and in a pure list you will be bringing 4-6, so to me you burn 80-120 points in a pure scion list.

 

I find they run best with some help, even if its normal guard.  I traditionally have ran them with my DW or admech for good effect, more recently I have been running 3 tank commanders with them and that has produced some very nice results for me.  If you are dead set on pure scions though, at least run two different regiments catered to what the squads should do.  IE dragons all DS and handle all plasma, lambdan/kappic are on the table and handle taurox duty, something like that.

 

Casual games a well played scion list can win you a lot of matches, competitive... really depends what you are up against, some match ups are auto lose, some are auto win, and a few will be a good fight, most of that is par for the course with competitive.  PA5 hasn't been out long enough for me to hazard a guess at their win rate though, pre pa5 I would guess around 25-35% somewhere, maybe a little higher, I tended to do well, but I always ran something else with them, not pure.

 

A fair point with the regiments which I honestly didn't fully consider and looking at it, minus the jakals, I'll definitely lean towards running no less than 2 of them at a time.  Which I'll have to test to see what I like.

 

 

They are perfectly fine in casual games. In competitive games they don't tick enough boxes to be considered necessarily *competitive* solo in a large tournament, but I for sure like them and think they are a ton of fun to play. They can hit exceptionally hard for their point cost but are limited in a number of ways. Plasma Guns are a mainstay of the list and can handle a variety of tasks very well. Melta guns can do work against vehicles. Hot-Shot Volley Guns are heavy, but can answer light and medium infantry well. 

 

You can use  a Valkyrie and those are great. The Taurox Prime is good, if not entirely cost effective. Scions are good troops for 7 points and can punch above their weight but they require good positioning and a strong sense regarding how to manipulate them to get good results.

 

In terms of avoiding things, it comes down how you want them to play, how you want the to feel, and what regimental rules you want to use.

Yeah but my local FGS most of the guys tend to avoid net lists minus tourney days from what I've seen so far.  So them not tick'ing the "win the majority" boxes doesn't bother me too much.  Though the Tprime being a bit overpriced is a bit, though maybe they'll be a good T1 Distraction Carnifex depending on which regiment I use them with.

 

A lot of it comes down to how pure the Scion Solo thought is. There are a lot of elements you can add to them if not solo, of course.

 

@GrinNfool- I'm actually gonna disagree with you a *little* on the Prime. I bring 6 sometimes and don't look at myself as being saddled with them.They tend to be 10-15 points more expensive than I'd want them to be but in my 2k Ground and Pound Scion list I have't run into a situation where I wanted to bring something else that would help me win and found myself unable to because of 60-90 inefficiently spent points. I find the firepower to be worth the cost most of the time. Being able to hunt down specific armored targets at range or chew through hordes and medium infantry pretty effectively. Of course I also played Lambda Lions the seven games I've gotten in with them since PA5 dropped. AP-3 Krak Missiles, AP-2 Autocannons? Vehicles are unhappy. Taurox Gatling Cannon with AP-1? HSVG with AP-3? Storm Bolters with AP? Pretty cool stuff.

 

 

 

My thoughts on solo is basically what is the limit that I can run without taking away the Scion's doctrines. 

 

Though yeah the Lions are probably going to be the main doctrine I'll run and will probably make the Taurox's a bit better for their points.

[Commander_Moustache]

Also don't forget the sheer amount of Command points you can get with scions. My 2k list has 10, and that's after paying for 3 lots of Drop force, an extra relic, warlord trait, and 3 valkyries with advanced counter-mesures. Add in Kurovs aquilla and grand strategist and you will never run short for stratagems.

[librisrouge]

I got to play my scions this weekend in a couple of games and it gave me some real food for thought.

• They are still a VERY short ranged army, having to get close to unleash their full potential
• Taurox Primes help with the first point but are over costed and/or under gunned for what they provide (especially given the lack of stratagem and tactics support for them)
• Dear lord, valkyries need tempestus trained pilots something fierce. They're more cost effective than taurox primes but the move and shoot penalty is painful and the limited amount of either shots or powerful guns really hold them back. This is especially painful given how needed they'd be in a pure scion force in order to get your men where they need to be.
• Scions don't have the numbers or toughness for a prolonged fight. This means that they often will be facing enemies that the absolutely need to get the jump on and at least cripple.
• Hot shot lasguns, in the right situation, do work. New regimental tactics and stratagems really help with this and should be taken advantage of. Scions are no longer just about the special weapons. Make those AP -2 guns do work.
• +4 saves can be amazing. Put these guys into cover and use the Take Cover! stratagem and you've got +2 save guardsmen.
• Use sources of mortal wounds. Officers of the Fleet are a must, not for the bonus to valkyries but to cause mortal wounds. The new stratagem helps with this immensely and is a big part of how I killed an Iron Hands leviathan. Similarly, take psykers. Smite and Psychic Maelstrom.

I like taking stormtroopers and thing they're a fun army to play but I'm convinced that they're stronger in a mixed regiment army with other IG that can provide numbers and long ranged support, as well as reliable weapons with better than D2.

[Closet Skeleton]

Spam is powerful, so you'd be surprised by what can become powerful in large numbers. 150 of anything is scary but that doesn't sound fun to make with how inflexible the kit is.