Deathwing Champion

[Skywrath]

Any of you tested that unit on the table-top? Thinking of running him in one of my many lists as either a warlord (with the ancient) or a character with the key of archbarael relic on him. I can even see him in a competitive scenario as a dedicated chaff killer (such as intercessors). Not to mention a semi-decent replacement to the ancient.  

 

With the ancient and the relic, S9, A5, -4 AP, D3 wounds. And that's without the doctrines into play, and assuming the unit attacked has 5 or more units into it, for an additional D3 attacks. Seems pretty insane to me! 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Chaplain Elijah]

I did tested him and was not very impressed. He has several problems (expensive, slow, too squishy for Character fighting, his special rules came rarely into play) and as someone else pointed out for the same amount of points you get a customizable Master in Terminator Amour with +1 Wound +1 Attack and a 4++, but more importantly he fill a mandatory HQ slot.

 

All in all the Champion is not a competitive choice but he remains a cool fluffy choice when running a Deathwing list.

If he was cheaper with a better invulnerable and/or always striking first he would be more competitive.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Chaplain Elijah

[Jings]

I'm surprised he hasn't had the Talonmaster treatment. Same statline, chuck him in HQ with a reroll 1s to wound aura and he'd see much more use.

 

As he is, you might as well take an Ancient.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Jings

[Berzul]

He looks cool as all hell, and is very interesting in the background. Ruleswise, saddly, he is pretty lackluster.

 

An expensive choice, despite the points drop. With less survivability, mobility, and attack power than one would want in a character like this.

 

I'd take him in small games, where his attack count really shines,and board size makes his mobility better. Overall, though, its hard to make good use of him.

[UtariOnzo]

I don’t really see why Deathwing haven’t got their own Lt variant like Talonmasters, which the Champion could nicely fill as previously mentioned. Then again, Ravenwing still have their own Champion model.

 

As posted before, you’re better off taking a master or an ancient if you’re looking for points efficiency.

[Master Sheol]

I don’t really see why Deathwing haven’t got their own Lt variant like Talonmasters, which the Champion could nicely fill as previously mentioned. Then again, Ravenwing still have their own Champion model.

 

As posted before, you’re better off taking a master or an ancient if you’re looking for points efficiency.

I agree with you both on the DW lieutenant lack (that could be easily fixed using a DWK body with standard DW termies options like it was a free customizable DW sergeant) and about the DW Champion being a subpar unit

A DW master is always a better choice than a DW Champion

[bigtrouble]

IMO the Deathwing don’t need lieutenants, as cool as that would be on the table. They are all veterans, members of the Inner Circle, and would primarily fight as independent squads attached to other commands.

 

They do need that re-roll 1s to wound somehow, though.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Hmmm reading that thread i was wondering how to build a list around him again so i've come with this :

- Champion obviously

- Thunder Master for the reroll 1's to hit and the reroll to wound against characters or models with 8+ Wounds

- Smash Chaplain for the rerollable advance/charge

- TH+SS Ancient for the additionnal attack and feel no pain for the four of them

 

That's up to 26 attacks with good odds of hitting their target, S8 potentially rerollable, AP-3 minimum, Dmg 3 or D3.

Then i needed some Heavy Weapons and saturation so i've come with this :

 

 

1200pts

CPs = 8 - 5 = 3

 

/// HQ ///

Inner Circle Master with Jet Pack, Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield, Warlord & Lay Low the Mighty = 143pts

Interrogator Chaplain with Jet Pack, Mace of Redemption & Crozius, Mantra of Strength, Hero of the Chapter & Master of Maneuver = 99pts

 

/// TROOPS ///

Tactical Squad = Sergeant with Chainsword & Storm Bolter, x4 Marines with Bolter = 62pts

Tactical Squad = Sergeant with Chainsword & Storm Bolter, x4 Marines with Bolter = 62pts

Tactical Squad = Sergeant with Chainsword & Storm Bolter, x4 Marines with Bolter = 62pts

 

/// ELITES ///

Aggressor Squad = Sergeant & 2 Aggressors with Boltstorm Gauntlets & Grenade Launchers = 111pts

Deathwing Ancient = Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield, Pennant of Remembrance = 115pts

Deathwing Champion = Halberd of Caliban, Key of Achrabael = 90pts

 

/// HEAVY SUPPORT ///

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought = x4 Lascannons, Cyclone Missile Launcher = 200pts

Devastator Squad = Sergeant with Bolter & Bolt Pistol, x4 Devastators with Plasma Cannons = 128pts

Devastator Squad = Sergeant with Bolter & Bolt Pistol, x4 Devastators with Plasma Cannons = 128pts

[Isiah]

Looks an interesting setup.

 

But excuse my ignorance here, I’ve been out of the 40K loop since 6th Edition. But is transport or high mobility not a thing in 8th? I’m just asking because apart from the jetpack Chaplain and Master there isn’t a whole lot distance-coverers there.

 

Or am I missing something? (Which to be fair is highly probable

[Volt]

I'd just use the model and run him as a Cataphractii Captain with a combi weapon and chainfist tbh. I don't think you're going to ever get much out of a Champion in any context, not just Deathwing, and you're better off taking a second captain to act as a beatstick. They just suffer from having a very low wound count and thus being vulnerable against other characters with multi damage weapons, such as Orks or Dark Eldar. And a 2+/5++ is pretty easy for many factions to crack. It's better to use something as a counts as model than to try to crowbar a bad unit into being anything other than a dead weight on your list.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Looks an interesting setup.

 

But excuse my ignorance here, I’ve been out of the 40K loop since 6th Edition. But is transport or high mobility not a thing in 8th? I’m just asking because apart from the jetpack Chaplain and Master there isn’t a whole lot distance-coverers there.

 

Or am I missing something? (Which to be fair is highly probable ).

 

[edit: yes totally aware that this is about the DW Champ and not a list-topic per se.]

 

Cheers

I

 

Well the Jet Pack HQs are going to reroll advance along the Aggressors, then the Termis Deep Strike near them to charge T2. I should instakill what i've come accross so T3 is probably going to be my characters facing some shooting but then i should make it in CC again. If the list lack some mobility but have enough OOMPH i could drop Mantra of Strength for Canticle of Hate eventually...

Also we play the 1K games on a 48''x48'' table so there is not that much distance between stuff ingame unless facing Taus or Guard.

[Skywrath]

I had a similar setup with the Deathwing Champion, however this is still a list in progress. 

 

+++ Dark Angels 3.1 Lite (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [106 PL, 8CP, 1,734pts] +++

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) [106 PL, 8CP, 1,734pts] ++

 

+ Configuration [8CP] +

 

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

 

Chapter Selection: Dark Angels

 

Detachment CP [5CP]

 

+ Stratagems [-1CP] +

 

Stratagem: Relics of the Rock [-1CP]: Relics of the Rock [-1CP]

 

+ HQ [17 PL, 1CP, 260pts] +

 

Azrael [9 PL, 1CP, 150pts]

 

Librarian in Terminator Armor [8 PL, 110pts]: 2) Aversion, 3) Righteous Repugnance, Force stave [8pts], Storm bolter [2pts]

 

+ Troops [15 PL, 255pts] +

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: 4x Intercessor [68pts], Intercessor Sergeant [17pts]

. Stalker Bolt Rifles

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: 4x Intercessor [68pts], Intercessor Sergeant [17pts]

. Stalker Bolt Rifles

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: 4x Intercessor [68pts], Intercessor Sergeant [17pts]

. Stalker Bolt Rifles

 

+ Elites [41 PL, 580pts] +

 

Deathwing Ancient [7 PL, 75pts]: Lightning Claw (Pair) [10pts]

. Pennant of Remembrance

 

Deathwing Champion [6 PL, 90pts]: 5. Master of Maneuvre, Warlord

. Key of Achrabael

 

Deathwing Knights [24 PL, 355pts]: Watcher in the Dark [5pts]

. 9x Deathwing Knight [315pts]: 9x Storm shield [18pts]

. Knight Master [35pts]: Storm shield [2pts]

 

Primaris Apothecary [4 PL, 60pts]

 

+ Fast Attack [10 PL, 138pts] +

 

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 69pts]

. Ravenwing Biker [23pts]: Bolt pistol

. . Space Marine bike [2pts]: Twin boltgun [2pts]

. Ravenwing Biker [23pts]: Bolt pistol

. . Space Marine bike [2pts]: Twin boltgun [2pts]

. Ravenwing Sergeant [23pts]: Bolt pistol

. . Space Marine bike [2pts]: Twin boltgun [2pts]

 

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 69pts]

. Ravenwing Biker [23pts]: Bolt pistol

. . Space Marine bike [2pts]: Twin boltgun [2pts]

. Ravenwing Biker [23pts]: Bolt pistol

. . Space Marine bike [2pts]: Twin boltgun [2pts]

. Ravenwing Sergeant [23pts]: Bolt pistol

. . Space Marine bike [2pts]: Twin boltgun [2pts]

 

+ Heavy Support [23 PL, 501pts] +

 

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster [72pts]

. Hellblaster Sergeant [18pts]: Bolt pistol

. Plasma incinerators [75pts]

 

Repulsor Executioner [15 PL, 336pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [8pts], Heavy Laser Destroyer [40pts], Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon [30pts], Icarus Rocket Pod [6pts], Ironhail Heavy Stubber [6pts], 2x Storm bolter [4pts], Twin heavy bolter [17pts], Twin Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber [10pts]

 

 

Essentially a watered down version of my 3.1 tournament list, (hence the term lite). Similar idea is to make the Champion the star of the show, with the ancient/apothecary sustaining him so he continues his onslaught. The Knights provide a meatshield for him to survive during charge (ideally they would be in front of him). 

 

I realise my wording was very vague when I proposed the question, what I had in mind was more along the lines of - how can we make him viable? With the recent criticism of he is slow, expensive and squishy, there are in fact ways around that, most of which are in Psychic Awakening. The list I provided has him with MoM, which should help a lot with movement. The Ancient there also essentially gives him a feel no pain benefit. Expensive in my mind is fairly subjective, I usually don't particularly mind the costs, as long as a final cost has been made (in this case 1750). Of course you could give him Artificer Armor or Fury of the Lion, but at this point he hits like a truck already, why would you want extra things on top? With the 3.1 Lite list that I proposed, what else could be added to make him shine?

 

(Note: I included the list as a concept of an idea where a list is centred around him. While I have little knowledge of how synergies work, I do believe this list offers a good amount of synergy to make him the star of the show.)

[Berzul]

I find that, for his cost, you could replace the DW Champion with 2 Company Champions. Have them rush along with the aggressors. Have them be your beat sticks.

[Chaplain Elijah]

I find that, for his cost, you could replace the DW Champion with 2 Company Champions. Have them rush along with the aggressors. Have them be your beat sticks.

Sure they are better value, that's why i have two and intend to get the third when the FW Companions are out, but they wouldn't benefit from the Deathwing bubbles (reroll to wound, +1 attack and 5+++) and would need something like Fury of the Lion to get that sweet S8 : so i would field along them Asmodai (which probably means a Drop Pod with Vets to soak characters wounds because Company Champions are squishy) and/or the Chaplain Dread with it's +1S sort of bubble.

[Master Sheol]

IMO the Deathwing don’t need lieutenants, as cool as that would be on the table. They are all veterans, members of the Inner Circle, and would primarily fight as independent squads attached to other commands.

 

They do need that re-roll 1s to wound somehow, though.

They are all Veterans Yes but among them there are some that are more veteran like DWK

Also the DW Master would need a second in command too

Fluff Wide the DW lt could be a DWK seargeant that is chosen to be the future DW Master so he trains along the current Master acting as second in command too

And the reroll 1s to wound is always tasty too

Edited March 11, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Skywrath]

Had a game with the Deathwing Champion with the Key of Achrabael on him. Works very well with the Deathwing Ancient (Warlord, MoM)  against a SW player. Cleaned his bloodclaws (that had 5 units) with a S9, 5 attacks (+D3 attacks for 5 or more units), -4AP, D3 damage each. Which firmly cements his position as a chaff-killing unit. I would say he is definitely an interesting unit, however more experimenting needs to be done, with more Deathwing Units to have more synergy with him (Thinking Belial). 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Wrath of Bruinen]

The difficult thing with the champion is that he's a bit unfocused in what he wants to fight. He gets bonuses for fighting characters, but wants to fight units to get the extra attacks. But he doesn't want to fight too big a unit, because they'll drown him in saves. As Skywrath has observed, the champ does seem to be ideally placed to take out small squads of marines if you can get him to s8. The problem there is that with all our plasma and bolter fire, killing small squads of marines isn't exactly a challenge for us. 

 

I do wonder whether there's a particular role for the champion to play as a backline bully though, hitting units of devastators, hellblasters, dark reapers etc. In that position, he can also try and assassinate a few characters, although on those, his -4AP is potentially wasted on invuln saves. Enter the Ravenwing champion, with the relic that reduces enemy invuln saves by 1. As a little combo, you can have the DW champ with the +1 S and A key, and the RW champ with the -1 invuln relic operating as a distraction carnifex in the enemy's back lines. You have to build the rest of the list around this, including lots of troops to go double battalion for enough CPs to make it work, and something fast moving to protect the RW champ as he gets behind enemy lines. Will it be on the top tables of a tournament? No. But will it make for an interesting use of a mediocre unit in a fun game? I think so.

 

The other thing is that, with stratagem support, the champ can be good (especially combined assault, combo'd with the RW champ). The difficulty there is that you'd rather use combined assault on a big unit of DWK etc. So in some ways, I think if you take the Champion, you don't really want to be taking other death wing units who will be competing for those stratagems etc.

[Skywrath]

The difficult thing with the champion is that he's a bit unfocused in what he wants to fight. He gets bonuses for fighting characters, but wants to fight units to get the extra attacks. But he doesn't want to fight too big a unit, because they'll drown him in saves. As Skywrath has observed, the champ does seem to be ideally placed to take out small squads of marines if you can get him to s8. The problem there is that with all our plasma and bolter fire, killing small squads of marines isn't exactly a challenge for us. 

 

I do wonder whether there's a particular role for the champion to play as a backline bully though, hitting units of devastators, hellblasters, dark reapers etc. In that position, he can also try and assassinate a few characters, although on those, his -4AP is potentially wasted on invuln saves. Enter the Ravenwing champion, with the relic that reduces enemy invuln saves by 1. As a little combo, you can have the DW champ with the +1 S and A key, and the RW champ with the -1 invuln relic operating as a distraction carnifex in the enemy's back lines. You have to build the rest of the list around this, including lots of troops to go double battalion for enough CPs to make it work, and something fast moving to protect the RW champ as he gets behind enemy lines. Will it be on the top tables of a tournament? No. But will it make for an interesting use of a mediocre unit in a fun game? I think so.

 

The other thing is that, with stratagem support, the champ can be good (especially combined assault, combo'd with the RW champ). The difficulty there is that you'd rather use combined assault on a big unit of DWK etc. So in some ways, I think if you take the Champion, you don't really want to be taking other death wing units who will be competing for those stratagems etc.

 

With regards to the last bit, you can get away with the Ancient and MoM combo. I tested the MoM, and about 60% of the time, I get a roll higher than 7, so if he were teleporting 9 inches away from a squad of say poxwalkers, he should have no issue making the distance. Your suggestion about that combo is fairly interesting, and that opens the floodgates of a whole plethora of ideas - more specifically character heavy lists. I suspect you very well might be onto something with that, as contrary to the other's opinions, I do not think the Champion is a bad unit. In fact, I think the PA is favouring him with the choice of relics/gear/stratagems. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[jbaeza94]

Sorry, what's the MoM again? Cant remember the acronym

[Skywrath]

Sorry, what's the MoM again? Cant remember the acronym

 

Master of Maneuver.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[mika_angelus]

Any character can be good if you invest enough in him.

A thing I want to try is a deathwing champ with key of achrabael, +1 attack or lay low the mighty warlord trait and buffed by lion and the wolf stratagem.

 

That would be 7+ d3 attacks against units of 5 or more models with the +1 attack warlord trait,

Or

6 attacks with reroll to hit and to wound against character with lay low the mighty trait.

And you can still increase those numbers with an ancient, asmodai or some chaplain litanies .

 

Could be fun to try out.