Thousand Sons Batrep vs Grey Knights

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

It wasn't ITC, but this weekend I beat a 20 Paladin GK list (4x10 Strikes, 2x10 Paladins, Voldus, Brother Captain, Librarian). 

 

Mission: Schemes of War-Disruptive Tactics

Deployment: Search and Destroy

 

Final Score: 18-14 to me on Turn 5 when the game did not continue.

 

Surviving units: Him = 6 Paladins, Voldus, Brother Captain

Me = 2 Terminator Sorcerers

 

My List:

Battalion: Cult of Duplicity

 

Daemon Prince, No Wings, Double Talons (Magister: Duplicitous Tactician)

Sorcerer (Helm of the Third Eye), Force Sword, Inferno Bolt Pistol

 

20 Rubricae, 2 Soulreapers, Aspiring Sorcerer w/Inferno Bolt Pistol and Force Stave

 

10 Rubricae, 9 Warpflamers, Aspiring Sorcerer with Warpflame Pistol and Force Stave

 

10 Rubricae, 1 Soulreaper, 1 Warpflamer, Aspiring Sorcerer w/Plasma Pistol and Force Stave

 

Battalion: Cult of Magic

 

Terminator Sorcerer, Inferno Combi, Force Stave, Familiar (Warlord: High Magister)

 

Terminator Sorcerer, Inferno Combi, Force Stave, Familiar (Arcane Focus)

 

Terminator Sorcerer, Inferno Combi, Force Stave, Familiar

 

10 Scarab Occult Terminators, 2 Hellfyre Missile Racks, Inferno Combi and Force Stave on Aspiring Sorcerer

 

10 Tzaangors

 

10 Tzaangors

 

10 Tzaangors

 

No real problems with mobility thanks to Sorcerous Facade and Warp Time.

 

MVP stratagems: Indomitable Foes, Vets, Risen Rubricae. Didn't get a chance to use Infernal Fusilade (was positioned correctly for it but killed the only possible target in the Psychic Phase), Adepts of the Immaterium, etc (only 1 Perils all game and that was after I was out of CP). Sorcerous Infusion helped out well enough.

 

Didn't take Devastating Sorcery on my Warlord because I wanted as many casting bonuses as possible (2 different Terminators had +2 to cast their first power, +1 thereafter).

 

Could have run the Termies in Duplicity, but for theme, I wanted them with the 3 Terminator Sorcerers. The Termies did some damage, soaked a ton of shots/attacks, and then died quickly, so wouldn't have been needed. They were GREAT for making sure my other units could get their jobs done. They killed 4 Paladins between shooting/charges and it took my opponent using Masters of Combat AND fighting twice to get rid of them. I was happy to trade them and 2 of my CP (for Indomitable Foes and Vets) for 4 Paladins and 5 of my opponent's CP, especially since they actually forced the remaining 4 Paladins to fall back (2 had died to Warpflamers and Smites earlier) in order to stay alive and then ate shooting and Smites from 2 characters and the second Paladin squad before they died.

 

Sorcerous Facade on the 20 man brick was amazing. Kept them able to take objectives and put firepower in wherever needed, plus forced my opponent to turn around and deal with them when I dropped in behind.

 

Tzaangors were great for bullet catching, screening out deep strikes, and threatening characters.

 

I can't say enough how much Indomitable Foes mattered against GK. Being able to soak a Paladin charge and still have enough models left to matter is HUGE.

 

It was a rough game, but I triumphed against an extremely hard list. We can hang with some of the better lists, folks.

Edited March 9, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

As a clarification: Indomitable foes mattered a lot on the Scarabs because my opponent mixed swords into his Paladin units. They weren't all Halberds.

[Heliomanes]

Congratulations on your hard fought victory! Very interesting list! How did you play the flamer unit? And why no Ahriman? Did you start the termies on the table, or deep strike them in turn 2?

[Prot]

Very interesting to have such a great result against what I consider to be a huge mismatch. 

 

I had to split this off and it's a new battle report and definitely worthy of having its own conversation (we've got a whole forum here to use for these kinds of conversations).

 

Did you know before hand you'd be playing this match up? Did you end up going first ?  I'm wondering about the match up because it would appear the lack of tank busting ability wouldn't hinder you here, but stuff like all those flamers would certainly come in handy and all those bolters in this particular match up.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Congratulations on your hard fought victory! Very interesting list! How did you play the flamer unit? And why no Ahriman? Did you start the termies on the table, or deep strike them in turn 2?

I used Risen Rubricae on the Warpflamer unit to place it near an objective, in cover, AND out of LOS from most of his army. They couldn't be reliably shot and were close enough that if left unmolested, they could be Warp-Timed forward to flame and charge a target of my choice. He had to charge forward with the Paladins to clear them out, weathering the Overwatching flamers. This put him into countercharge range from Tzaangors and SOT's without as much support as he would have otherwise had. He wasn't using Astral Aim because his heavy weapons weren't all concentrated into one Paladin Squad and he didn't want to sacrifice defense for it.

 

And that answers the second question: SOT's were on the table, hidden on the ground floor of a ruin with no windows. They did a "Kool Aid Man" through the wall and went out to charge after the Paladins hit the Warpflamer squad.

 

No Ahriman because he didn't get any cult bonuses and I already had 3 models with +1 to cast their first power, and 2 of those already had +1 to cast overall (one with High Magister and one with Arcane Focus). The three Termie Sorcerers could also be held for deepstrike without spending CP and could still save on 2+ and put out 4 Combi-Bolter shots even if they failed their castings or got denied. They were comparable enough for what I needed while each being 11pts cheaper than even Ahriman on foot, much less on a Disc. As a nice side effect, they weren't Demons and so didn't trigger the extra damage from GK smites.

 

The Sorcerer was super cheap at 88 and the Prince was only 156 because no wings. The Prince had Warp Time and could teleport with Sorcerous Facade in an emergency, which the Sorcerer also had.

 

Basically I went cheap on HQ's and had so much casting power and versatility that I felt I made up for not having Ahriman.

Edited March 9, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Very interesting to have such a great result against what I consider to be a huge mismatch. 

 

I had to split this off and it's a new battle report and definitely worthy of having its own conversation (we've got a whole forum here to use for these kinds of conversations).

 

Did you know before hand you'd be playing this match up? Did you end up going first ?  I'm wondering about the match up because it would appear the lack of tank busting ability wouldn't hinder you here, but stuff like all those flamers would certainly come in handy and all those bolters in this particular match up.

This is my all comers list as of now. I tend to find Smite/Vets satisfactory for dealing with most tanks and otherwise just tie them up and/or play the mission. I found, for example, that I didn't need my Daemon Engines against earlier Space Marine opponents who had vehicles, other than to kill Primaris. My Smites and such did just fine at handling vehicles.

 

Granted, my meta tends toward at least 3 pieces of LOS blockage on each table and T-Sons weather indirect fire fairly well. We don't mind Tremor Shells, for example. I also keep my characters cheap with redundant powers in case one is caught out and sniped. The Tactical Deck also has no Defend Objectives or anything that requires me to kill vehicles. It's all board control, Psychic Power-related objectives, and stuff that can be accomplished by wiping whatever units are available.

 

The fact that EVERYTHING in the list has an Invuln helps to shrug off antitank fire while getting about the real work of murdering scoring units.

 

I imagine that careful selection of secondaries in ITC (Engineers, Old School, etc.) could be helpful in a similar way. 

 

As for going first, my opponent did. I didn't use Duplicitous Tactician at all because I deployed second.

 

I thought I'd be playing White Scars, actually, so the extent of my tailoring once I heard about the change was to swap "Psychic Supremacy" back into my Tactical Deck.

Edited March 9, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Agerjag]

How was casting vs grey knights and how solid were your denys? I havent got a chance to play this matchup but I would think that the +1 from Ahriman on deny (and just the amount he gets) would make him top tier here. Let me know your thoughts :D

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

How was casting vs grey knights and how solid were your denys? I havent got a chance to play this matchup but I would think that the +1 from Ahriman on deny (and just the amount he gets) would make him top tier here. Let me know your thoughts

My denies were about 50/50 when attempted, even against GK characters. Of course, that was me rolling a little hot.

 

Casting generally worked fine. I had one terrible turn where I failed over 70%, but the strats and the army's redundancy kept me alive until the dice came back around, then at the end I started pulling off D6 Smites. So, average overall. One important thing was that I had Gaze of fate and the CP for rerolls or Cabalistic Focus whenever truly needed, but my opponent was bleeding CP from powering his Paladins and couldn't spend for Command Reroll there very often.

 

Only had one time where a Denial by the GK derailed me for a bit. That was when Sorcerous Facade from the 20 man Rubrics to escape from combat with the Paladins was denied. Had it gone off, I would have escaped with 12 models left. Denial killed the unit. Of course, his Paladins were FAR on the wrong side of the table in order to do that and he didn't notice that I had killed everyone with Gate who could have teleported them to the other side, so it wasn't as bad as I thought.

 

Regarding Ahriman, I ran him on foot in literally every game in 8th edition up to this point. Now I'm glad I don't have to. What he provides offensively, I can get elsewhere, what I lose defensively by not taking him, I can plan for. When I want to field him for a specific purpose, I still will. I tend not to like the Disc version because I run into GK and character killers a lot, and the shorter, non-Daemon foot version suits my play style better.

Edited March 9, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Prot]

Just as an aside Devastating Sorcery is so good. I just can’t see myself not  taking it with Magic. Especially with Blast and Infernal Gateway. 
 

You say your scarab Occult died fairly quickly... what got them? Would you have played it differently in hindsight?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Just as an aside Devastating Sorcery is so good. I just can’t see myself not  taking it with Magic. Especially with Blast and Infernal Gateway. 

 

You say your scarab Occult died fairly quickly... what got them? Would you have played it differently in hindsight?

My Scarab Occult rapid fired and charged Paladins, killed 4 and then received 2 entire rounds of Paladin attacks (fighting twice) WITH Masters of Combat and still had 5 models left. Then they took Smites from a second Paladin Squad, a Librarian, a Brother Captain, and the 4 remaining Paladins that fell back, losing 2 models. Then the remaining 3 were shot when that second squad split fire and THEN were charged by them and then were killed in Assault, except for the Sorcerer who I let go to Morale because he was trapped.

 

Given that they soaked ALL of that attention, allowing the rest of my army to survive, plus crippled one Paladin Squad and ate up a huge number of my opponent's Smites and CP? No.....I don't tthink I would have played it differently. As I said before, they took a LOT to kill, but they died quick in terms of the game's time scale.

Edited March 10, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Prot]

Wow. That is a lot. 

 

At first I was thinking is there anything else you could throw in there? Tzaangors? Just anything with a 5++, but it probably would have faded.I mean realistically they took a horrendous beating that very, very few other units could. Even Custodes would have been easily brought down with out any Psychic protection, and those D3 weapons.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Wow. That is a lot. 

 

At first I was thinking is there anything else you could throw in there? Tzaangors? Just anything with a 5++, but it probably would have faded.I mean realistically they took a horrendous beating that very, very few other units could. Even Custodes would have been easily brought down with out any Psychic protection, and those D3 weapons.

There was also a unit of 10 Tzaangors in there who lost 3 to Overwatch (which they soaked up for the SOT) and then the Paladins just ignored them (they lost 1 more to Morale). I think they did one wound to the Pallies. After the 4 Paladins fell back, the surviving six were able to go deeper and trap the Librarian, forcing him to drop what he was doing and kill them all. He killed one more in Overwatch and they hit him a boatload of times but rolled garbage to wound. Then he killed a couple more and then Smite + his CC attacks finished them on his turn. So they got to eat Overwatch, then go threaten characters and be annoying. Not bad for 80 points.

Edited March 10, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Wow. That is a lot. 

 

At first I was thinking is there anything else you could throw in there? Tzaangors? Just anything with a 5++, but it probably would have faded.I mean realistically they took a horrendous beating that very, very few other units could. Even Custodes would have been easily brought down with out any Psychic protection, and those D3 weapons.

There were indeed some 3's for damage that were spilling over and going nowhere, plus a fair number of 1's, so yeah, ironically, I did better because I was a larger number of 2 wound models rather than a smaller number of 3 wound models.

 

It also helped that he thought he could skate by without Hammerhand on his squads and use 2W Smites to make up the difference. I ruined that plan when my Denies stopped him from shifting out of Tide of Shadow two turns in a row. :)

Edited March 10, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Agerjag]

 

How was casting vs grey knights and how solid were your denys? I havent got a chance to play this matchup but I would think that the +1 from Ahriman on deny (and just the amount he gets) would make him top tier here. Let me know your thoughts

My denies were about 50/50 when attempted, even against GK characters. Of course, that was me rolling a little hot.

 

Casting generally worked fine. I had one terrible turn where I failed over 70%, but the strats and the army's redundancy kept me alive until the dice came back around, then at the end I started pulling off D6 Smites. So, average overall. One important thing was that I had Gaze of fate and the CP for rerolls or Cabalistic Focus whenever truly needed, but my opponent was bleeding CP from powering his Paladins and couldn't spend for Command Reroll there very often.

 

Only had one time where a Denial by the GK derailed me for a bit. That was when Sorcerous Facade from the 20 man Rubrics to escape from combat with the Paladins was denied. Had it gone off, I would have escaped with 12 models left. Denial killed the unit. Of course, his Paladins were FAR on the wrong side of the table in order to do that and he didn't notice that I had killed everyone with Gate who could have teleported them to the other side, so it wasn't as bad as I thought.

 

Regarding Ahriman, I ran him on foot in literally every game in 8th edition up to this point. Now I'm glad I don't have to. What he provides offensively, I can get elsewhere, what I lose defensively by not taking him, I can plan for. When I want to field him for a specific purpose, I still will. I tend not to like the Disc version because I run into GK and character killers a lot, and the shorter, non-Daemon foot version suits my play style better.

 

Interesting, thats good to know. Do their characters get alot of casting bonuses as well? 50/50 seems quite solid as I dont think you listed any bonuses to deny. In these matchups I feel like both sides have so many casts and deny that you basically attempt it all the time? maybe save 1 for a certain spell?

 

I run him on foot this edition in basically every game. He moves far enough for me generally and his points to value ratio feels insane. I would put him up there as one of the best characters in 40k for points efficiency. Each to their own and all that. Its mostly just surprising to me :D Nearly magnus tier casting for so little :D

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

How was casting vs grey knights and how solid were your denys? I havent got a chance to play this matchup but I would think that the +1 from Ahriman on deny (and just the amount he gets) would make him top tier here. Let me know your thoughts

My denies were about 50/50 when attempted, even against GK characters. Of course, that was me rolling a little hot.

 

Casting generally worked fine. I had one terrible turn where I failed over 70%, but the strats and the army's redundancy kept me alive until the dice came back around, then at the end I started pulling off D6 Smites. So, average overall. One important thing was that I had Gaze of fate and the CP for rerolls or Cabalistic Focus whenever truly needed, but my opponent was bleeding CP from powering his Paladins and couldn't spend for Command Reroll there very often.

 

Only had one time where a Denial by the GK derailed me for a bit. That was when Sorcerous Facade from the 20 man Rubrics to escape from combat with the Paladins was denied. Had it gone off, I would have escaped with 12 models left. Denial killed the unit. Of course, his Paladins were FAR on the wrong side of the table in order to do that and he didn't notice that I had killed everyone with Gate who could have teleported them to the other side, so it wasn't as bad as I thought.

 

Regarding Ahriman, I ran him on foot in literally every game in 8th edition up to this point. Now I'm glad I don't have to. What he provides offensively, I can get elsewhere, what I lose defensively by not taking him, I can plan for. When I want to field him for a specific purpose, I still will. I tend not to like the Disc version because I run into GK and character killers a lot, and the shorter, non-Daemon foot version suits my play style better.

 

Interesting, thats good to know. Do their characters get alot of casting bonuses as well? 50/50 seems quite solid as I dont think you listed any bonuses to deny. In these matchups I feel like both sides have so many casts and deny that you basically attempt it all the time? maybe save 1 for a certain spell?

 

I run him on foot this edition in basically every game. He moves far enough for me generally and his points to value ratio feels insane. I would put him up there as one of the best characters in 40k for points efficiency. Each to their own and all that. Its mostly just surprising to me Nearly magnus tier casting for so little

 

All GK get +1 to cast. There are relics and such that can get another +1.

 

TS Terminator Sorcerers have +1 on their first power if you buy a familiar. I had one with the +1 Relic, the other with the +1 Warlord Trait, so my first power was +2, so I was matching them there in many cases. Offensively, I was actually doing better than Ahriman on the rolls overall, with one less casting and 2 less denies. I was able to ration my denies so that it wasn't a big deal and against most armies, I would have had extra. I saved CP in case a deny absolutely had to happen.

 

I had exactly zero bonuses to deny. Like I said, I rolled a little above average there.

 

Ahriman is still great. I'm just so glad that I'm not practically required to have him carry the army anymore.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Agerjag]

Thats a good amount of plus and we have to get better to deny. At least we have so many units that can deny :D

Term Sorc are very solid I almost always have at least 1. Usually do Ahriman and a DP or two first then hes a go to.

Usually its something like this in order of taking

Ahriman
DP with Relic for +1 (Usually devastating sorcery as well for that spash +1 MW off astral and gateway)
DP with High Magister for +1
Sometimes magnus (+2)

Then a Term sorc (+1/2)
after this its just what fits if anything.

 

Having options is what makes discussions fun. If ahriman was +3 or something and 50 points cheaper we wouldnt be able to discuss anymore...it would just be a thing.

[Skerr]

Good show man! 3 termie sorcerers, huh? Hmmmm.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Good show man! 3 termie sorcerers, huh? Hmmmm.

Thanks. Terminator Sorcerers are probably my favorite HQ that we have.

[Mr Smith]

Well done on the win!

This may be a dumb question, but how many points was this?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Well done on the win!

 

This may be a dumb question, but how many points was this?

2K.