Knights wAdmech necessary evil?

[Prot]

Maybe I shouldn’t word it like that but what do you guys think if this mentality for tournament play?

 

Let’s assume the typical scenario: radically wide variety of terrain. Unknown amounts of close combat armies. Typical meta chasing. 
 

I have been finding pure AdMech is pretty swingy lately though I admit I don’t use Breachers or Destroyers in my last 20+ games. 
 

With pure AdMech it’s a big win or big loss. I find I don’t win as big with a Knight detachment,  but my win ratio jumps considerably. What do you guys find in your experience?

[Sugarlessllama]

I wouldn't call it a "necessary evil". I would just say that it is part of the game. I mean, I love my Knight army. I do my best to try and play them as much as possible. But I can see how they can be a chore on the tournament scene. I guess it just depends on how much you really like matched play. 
 

[Karhedron]

I guess the question is to determine what it is about the Knight(s) that boosts your win ratio. Does the Knight provide some sort of hard-counter to units that the rest of your army struggles with? Or do they cover a weakness in the rest of your army?

 

Even a Castellan is pretty fearsome in melee as it can stomp with a similar effect to 4 battlecannons. Do you find that having a big melee capability is helping?

 

I am currently working on an army that goes the opposite way with 2 Knight Demi-lances and a Rusty17 for CP support and objective grabbing.

[Prot]

I wouldn't call it a "necessary evil". I would just say that it is part of the game. I mean, I love my Knight army. I do my best to try and play them as much as possible. But I can see how they can be a chore on the tournament scene. I guess it just depends on how much you really like matched play. 

 

 

I don't mean to say I don't like them. I mean I have a large collection of House Krast that I sold, and then started a collection of House Taranis. I'm just finding for competitive play they feel even more mandatory today than they ever have for some reason.... Well I know the reasons... Blood Angels, Krakken Genestealers, Genestealer Cult, horde Orks, etc. All very capable of T1 charges. Nothing in the AdMech codex is working for me to prevent being tapped in T1 and almost categorically shutting down the army. 

 

 

 

. Do you find that having a big melee capability is helping?

 

I am currently working on an army that goes the opposite way with 2 Knight Demi-lances and a Rusty17 for CP support and objective grabbing.

 

The army you're working on is really popular in my meta. It will play very differently than what I'm doing. I faced an army like you're buidling at an ITC event, with my Black Legion, and almost beat it, but he did have Shield Captains as well as the Rusty 17, and a lot of CC Knights. As a side note, it was a really tough army to play against. You almost couldn't touch the Rusty 17.

 

I would say right now unless AdMech gets something stupendously good, with Fly, are the ability to push back.. I mean really push back against massed Centurions, Death Company, etc.... I am finding the Knight detachment... even a minimal one mandatory.

 

At this point I can't see putting my (even)  minimal Knight detachment off the table. It isn't the end of the world by any means. Just for a while I've been trying pure admech but the Skorpius just doesn't do it. It had some serious gaps, and again the army MUST be able to bear a T1 assault from hard hitters or you can't expect to avoid that match up for a weekend tournament. 

[sal of manders]

have you tried elector priests? not for tanking damage, but as a counter assault.  use the skitarriii or kataphrons as speed bumps and then retaliate with the electro's.  Dunno how well it'd work, but it's something I'd try.

[Prot]

have you tried elector priests? not for tanking damage, but as a counter assault.  use the skitarriii or kataphrons as speed bumps and then retaliate with the electro's.  Dunno how well it'd work, but it's something I'd try.

 

Oh yes, multiple times. Orks out horde me, and out assault me. Shooty Orks I can eek out the odd tie game (we're talking top meta lists here though, nothing run of the mill.)

 

Tomorrow I will be trying a non-Knight variant.

 

I plan to do something I kind of new, but very risky. For the first time I will mix my Servitor Maniple dectachment of 6 Plasma Destroyers in with my Triple Skorpius tanks, and Electro Priest Dunerider list.

 

What this means is I will have a VERY paltry defense in CC. Again, it's not so much dying in hand to hand, it's the loss of board control. The fact that once bumped into, we can rarely shoot again. 

 

We'll see what happens.

[Prot]

Okay so I'm not sure if anyone really reads batreps here or really cares about the competitive scene but here's what I've come up with.

 

Again I think this is a bad move, but I will do my best... meaning the Knights are out, not even one.

 

So I'm doing a dual Battalion.

 

Basic rundown:

 

Cawl 

Daedelosus

 

Troops vanilla

3 Skorps

3 Chicken walkers for defense

 

2 priest units (1 of each)

2 Duneriders for transprting them.

 

Other Batt:

 

Manipulus

Dominus (for Bio Splicing)

5 plasma Destoryers

Vanilla troops.

 

Gees. I think that's it. lol

 

The game will be using the newer ITC rules. Not sure who my opponent will be. I will report back later. :)

[Black Knight]

Was five destroyers enough to outlast a turn?

 

We are so close to April that I can taste the incense.

 

And just as of note, if you write it in the Admech forum I read it, I do like the battlereports!

Edited March 21, 2020 by Black_Knight

[Prot]

Well I typically put them on my blog, however It was really not a very interesting game to see.  It was interesting to play  but the visuals are lacking in all the pictures I took.

 

The reason being I played against Tau. It was great to get my third Skorpius assembled and just a dash of colour on him. 

 

But again this was my pure Admech list and I felt real issues with it while playingn.

 

I actually had 6 Plasma destroyers in it. We had a decent amount of terrain with two multi story LoS blocking pieces in the center.

 

I would like to be honest here, so I'm just going to say it... I just out played him, and I went first. He didn't have a super min-maxed army but it was very potent. 

 

We played ITC new mission 1 on Frontline Assault. (Pointy DoW). Since I went first, huge advantage, I didn't even bother targeting his Ghost Keel, or Stormsurge, or RIptide. I went after all the drones and marker lights. Indirect was huge. 

 

He got greedy T1, I noted his range wasn't as good as most of mine. I pulled back, he did not move up in T1 (big mistake, he's used to castling). 

 

He never got a kill T1, and split fire too much, his best stuff was out of range... he needed his reserves. By the time T3 came out I had a  big lead and the final hammer blow was my Disco Sticks with Daedelosus nearly killing his Stormsurge from Wrath of Mars, then assaulting him.

 

I did tell him if I were playing purely for the win, I wouldn't assault, but I wanted him to have some interaction at this point. He had pulled out of his castle, and I hit pretty hard with Disco's and Jazz hands on his HQ's.... I had the table covered, and finally my Arquebus' were decent... not good, still below average but a killing blow on a Coldstar commander with 3 battlesuit squads was HUGE.

 

End game I won 26-5 as he conceded at the end of 3. 

 

The list did what I thought it would, but I still stand by my strong belief that even though people do well with this style (not exact) list in tournaments.... you MUST thread a needle in matchups because there's some serous Kryptonite out there in horde Orks (especially with new Ghaz), and Kraken Genestealer/GSC (these are making a comeback), and stuff like Alpha Legion Possessed Bomb. 

 

I don't like how that felt, because although I had a strong outing, it was my game to lose. I still prefer a much stronger forward presence. We can't afford to get touched or it's GG.

[Clingy]

I like batreps. This is just my opinion but I think knights are a bit of a liability and pure Admech is more competitive than knight soup just now.

 

Most viable Admech is unfortunately costly and involves

Spamming the new transport and tanks.

 

High volume of shots, multiple threats and should perform admirably against all bar the most cut throat of marine lists. (Other than marines who’s topping em consistently)

Edited March 22, 2020 by Clingy

[Black Knight]

From the batreps I have seen, our skimmer is really doing well, not just the tank variant either but the transport due to the stubbers. I really cannot grab 5+ of them at the moment, just got one of each.

[brother_b]

Man the good stuff in this army is expensive.

 

What to put in t transports? Obviously stick priests but is anybody using vanguard or hoplites? How about rust stalkers?

 

My forge world wants to know and hopefully I can get some actual painting in soon.

[Black Knight]

Priests > Vanguard. Mainly because priests command a well deserved fear by most armies. But I am now seeing a lot of batreps with 3+ transports, even empty ones because of the mass of shots they have.

[Malakithe]

My list idea has 3 Armiger Moriaxes instead of a big Knight. That way I can still include all the other good AdMech vehicles for a good mix of target saturation and heavy firepower. What does the opponent focus on first? 3 Moriaxes w/Lightning locks? 3 Dunecrawlers? Or the 3 Disintergrators shooting out of LoS? 

 

Of course all this can change once rules for the new stuff is leaked. Those flyers might be awesome 

[Prot]

So I don't own any Moriaxes but I'm okay with the Helverins. They seem to put in the work... 

 

Tonight I have a game where I am thinking of pulling out my favourite AdMech list. Basically this is it: (excuse the formatting.)

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [68 PL, 5CP, 1,082pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

[Reference] Warlord Traits (All)

 

Detachment CP [5CP]

 

Forge World Choice

. Forge World: Mars

 

+ HQ +

 

Belisarius Cawl [13 PL, 190pts]: Warlord, Warlord Trait (Mars): Static Psalm-Code

 

Daedalosus [3 PL, 50pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 47pts]

. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle

. 3x Skitarii Ranger: 3x Galvanic Rifle

. Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): Transuranic Arquebus

 

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 47pts]

. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle

. 3x Skitarii Ranger: 3x Galvanic Rifle

. Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): Transuranic Arquebus

 

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 35pts]

. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle

. 4x Skitarii Ranger: 4x Galvanic Rifle

 

+ Elites +

 

Corpuscarii Electro-Priests [6 PL, 108pts]

. 9x Corpuscarii Electro-Priest: 9x Electrostatic Gauntlets

 

Fulgurite Electro-Priests [8 PL, 126pts]

. 9x Fulgurite Electro-Priest: 9x Electroleech Stave

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber

 

Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber

 

Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Skorpius Dunerider [4 PL, 73pts]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber

 

Skorpius Dunerider [4 PL, 73pts]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber

 

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [50 PL, -2CP, 849pts] ++

 

+ Configuration +

 

Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus

. House Taranis

 

+ Stratagems +

 

Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait

 

Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Armiger Helverins [18 PL, 314pts]

. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber

. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber

 

Armiger Warglaives [9 PL, 147pts]

. Armiger Warglaive: Heavy Stubber

 

Knight Preceptor [23 PL, 388pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [5 PL, 65pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Tech-Priest Manipulus [5 PL, 65pts]: Relic: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Transonic cannon

 

++ Total: [123 PL, 3CP, 1,996pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

I know the Detachments are messed up, but you get the idea.

 

I have had HORRENDOUS failures with this army, and to this day this is why I say AM are not competitive unless you plan on threading a needle at your local ITC event.

 

In order to make it shooty enough to compete with the 'shooty' armies, it sacrifices push back. The Knight component has to be working in all three phases (Preceptor + Warglaive). 

 

The Priests with their transports are obviously a part of that as well, but the end problem here is always those armies that just don't care about such paltry Close Combat units we have.... These nemesis' include: Heavy Genestealer Nids (Kraken), GSC, Possessed  bomb Chaos, White Scars, Raven Guard, etc, etc.

 

The above armies can make the shooting go sideways really fast, and have the ability to get into close combat/tie up units in T1-2 guaranteed. 

 

Tau are blessed with almost every important unit having Fly. We on the other hand are easily trapped, boxed in, and shut down.

 

Since as I write this we do not have 'Fly". (and personally I'm still very skeptical about our upcoming helicopter.)  

 

The second big weakness in actually almost every Admech list I make is Knights or T8. I think Onagers don't cut it anymore, so I'm relying on a plethora of mid power shooting to do some heavy lifting, until a Knight can get there. 

 

So the reason I am posting all of this is because I state this is my 'typical' all comers list, and almost 100% of the time I have no idea what I'm facing, but tonight I think it's going to be Tau with their fancy array of new shooting relics. 

 

The last time I faced this 'new' Tau army he had a very large squad of Suits come down with some sort of relic guns... so he hits you with a Stratagem that gets something like 5 Marker lights available for that unit of (Crisis?) suits. They -each- shoot 12 S5-1 AP shots. The squad is 6 dudes in size and comes out of Deep Strike.

 

The other issues include 2 different looking Riptides. One with 18 shots, and the other with a high strength mutli shot weapon that does 3 + D3 damage per wound. As we know it's nearly impossible to engage Riptides so I may not even bother trying with Admech to do so.

 

This will be a huge test. I actually beat this army with my Eldar. Largely I think this was because I outranged most of his army, and I had one, very hard to kill, Wraith Blade squad march across the field, absorb a metric ton of firepower, and mess him up badly. I obviously won't have that option tonight.

 

So there you have it. Not much of a game plan, but the idea would be to take my all comers, measure it against this post PA Tau army, and then try again after Machine Wars or whatever, and see what's what. 

 

Any suggestions on the list? The only change I have made to the original is I pulled out Greyfax because I really have found her hit and miss and even though I'm pure Mars, I am willing to sacrifice her two Denials.

[Focslain]

So the knight component is the only thing I'll speak on.

 

Helverins will help vs tau due to skyreaper protocol, re-roll versus fly is really good against a mostly flying army.

 

For the questoris while Saint Ion is not a bad choice I would suggest looking at Mark of the Omnimessiah (heal 1-3 wounds a turn) or Sanctuary (5++ in melee and Ion bulwark does increase it to 4++) as alternate relics.

 

Also for some reason your final CP is off, it should be 10CP.

 

And if your willing to spend another CP I'd add Cognis Stubbers since you have a bunch in the detachment.

 

 

 

The last time I faced this 'new' Tau army he had a very large squad of Suits come down with some sort of relic guns... so he hits you with a Stratagem that gets something like 5 Marker lights available for that unit of (Crisis?) suits. They -each- shoot 12 S5-1 AP shots. The squad is 6 dudes in size and comes out of Deep Strike.

The other issues include 2 different looking Riptides. One with 18 shots, and the other with a high strength mutli shot weapon that does 3 + D3 damage per wound. As we know it's nearly impossible to engage Riptides so I may not even bother trying with Admech to do so.

 

Sounds like the squad has 3 burst cannons with the burst cannon trait and used coordinated fire (2CP, a unit of crisis battlesuits counts as having 5 marker lights versus a target)

The riptides are the standard HBC and fusion selections, the HBC had to have nova'd (1 MW) and the fusion is a relic...

 

You can kill the riptides somewhat ok as long as you hit the drones first. Just kill like half the squad turn 1 and you'll clear the screen pretty fast unless his lucky in rolling moral.

 

One more thing too.

While I understand this list is an all-comers lists, something to think about considering relic selection is who your facing.  For tournaments I'd check on how they treat pre-game stratagems as last one I went to allowed you to select those type prior to the battle. So you could see if you either needed them or to swap out if you wished.

 

Warlord traits and relics given to your free one did carry in each game. 

 

At least that was in the last one I was in and they used a large amount of ITC rules. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Focslain

[Prot]

I haven’t played with Mark of the Omnissiah for a long time... I may give it a shot. 

 

On the CP.... what I came up with was 5 for the Battalion. 3 for the Knight detachment....plus the rest for a spearhead I guess and 3 for battle forge.... that’s one of the main reasons I take the Preceptor instead of another Armiger. Do I have this wrong?

 

Cognis heavy stubbers...isn’t that only usable by the Knights? Is that going to be that potent in my list?

Edited May 1, 2020 by Prot

[Prot]

Okay so I guess I've been 'cheating' for some reason I was giving myself 3 CP for having a Preceptor with Armigers in a superheavy detachment... I don't know how long I've been doing this, or why, but I definitely thought all this time it was legal. lol

 

I forgot to take pictures but the game was a narrow victory by me. We played Maelstrom and we were both struggling in the early turns to score those cars, but on a 'death tally' type of measurement, the Tau certainly had the edge.

 

One of the riptides he used had the relic gun with S9 -4AP and 3+D3 damage. I couldn't damage his riptides as usual. My indirect fire was almost useless against Riptides and the majority of his infantry was in cover.... it felt like it took 20 shots to kill a fish. I kid you not.

 

My 2 Helverins were doing some work... but honestly they just rebounded off the Riptides even once I got rid of the drones. 

 

I took a chance on T3 and poked my Preceptor's head out... wow.... I went from full health to 4 wounds! I decided to pull back and try to keep him alive.

 

Big moment was two fold: 1 - he deep strikes a 6 man unit with 72 shots of battlesuits. They wipe a squad of Rangers, and barely touch anything else. His 3 man batlesuit comes in the same turn, and almost kills one Skorpius tank leaving it on 1 wound... which is ridiculous... he had about 3 melta shots and other stuff. Oh... one other thing... he turbo'd accross his HQ suit Commander with guns blazing and also flashed.

 

2. I take this incredibly lucky moment to counter with Disco Stick Priests who just lost their transport. They kill the commander, and 3 suits getting  a 3++. That was massive but even more so the Helverins FINALLY had a perfect target and their -1 , 3 Damage arms were perfect for taking down the giant battiesuit squad.

 

Those kills/points put me in the lead. His army was clearly able to outdamage mine, but that moment he dedicated those three key units, and through amazing bad luck, they just bounced, and that gave me the swing I needed. 

 

I never did kill a Riptide, but then who does? He still had some infantry I just couldn't scrape out of the ruins but at that point with all his suits dead, the Coldstar Commander , Ghost Keel and so much infantry unable to move outwards, that turn was just enough for me to pull off the win.

[Focslain]

Actually you weren't cheating, a SHD with a questoris or Dominus grants +3CP.

 

Sorry for the delay I don't check the forums on the weekends as I have enough to distract me at home.

Anyway, I'm starting to get a picture of your opponent's list.

 

As for the riptides I'm guessing it was lucky saves cause I can't keep mine on the field for more then two turns if there is any AT fire on the field. That or your split firing, have to focus those things down. Do you remember how many drones he had?

 

Also the coldstar commander has a 40" advance, it's one of the reasons the fusionstar (coldstar with 4 fusion blasters) is so popular.

 

Kind of a hard choice in with suit to drop first, the HBC has the shoots, but the fusion has the raw damage....

 

Sorry for armchair quarterbacking.

 

Good on your win. Just need some more practice and maybe try other missions to see if your army can handle them.