Is there a way to competitively play with old marines?

[Lord_Ikka]

Looking to start a discussion/get some answers to question- is there a way to play with old marines (non-Primaris) competitively? Mainly I'm looking at tactical squads, as devastators still have their uses. Can tactical marines have a use competitively, in ITC or other formats, or are Primaris/scout just so good for the points that tacticals are worthless?

 

The reasoning behind my question is that I've got a DA army that I started a few years back as a HH army. Unfortunately, no one around me played HH so I switched over to 8th ed, mainly as a casual player with some work friends. Now, as I've started to go to tournaments, I'm wondering if I just have to give up the ghost on my tac squads and start buying into the new boys. I would prefer not to, as I still have other toys to buy (Talon Masters and whatnot) and I've spent some time/money into the old guys, but if tac squads are worthless I'd rather know now and start up some Primaris before getting stomped constantly in competitive.

 

 

[Angel of Solitude]

At a point-per-model level, an Intercessor is 5 points more than a Tactical marine. For that, you get an additional wound, an additoinal attack, an extra 6" and AP-1 on your base weapon.

 

Looking at it the other way: A Scout is only 1 point cheaper than a Tactical marine, for which you gain the ability to advance deploy, at the expense of a 4+ armour save. My personal view is that the increased utility of the Scout squad more than offsets the loss in armour save, and so I'd always consider Scouts against Tactical marines.

 

Looking then at Scouts vs Intercessor, the big difference that we've seen in recent times is the significant amount of Stratagem support that now exists for Intercessors. Bolt Storm, Veteran Intercessors, Rapid Fire, Target Sighted, and Gene-Wrought Might are all stratagems that affect Primaris marines only, and thus considerably improve the flexibility of Intercessor marines relative to old-marines. Scouts/Tacitcals don't have anywhere near that level of Stratagem support

 

So if you really want to take the competitive route, then I suspect others will echo my suggestion that you move away from Tactical marines. However, if you just want to play for fun, then by all means include those Tactical marines!

[Chaplain Elijah]

I don't really care about the ultra competitive environnement because if i did i wouldn't have choosed this army to play with...

 

Still I use only Tactical as troops : Sergeant with Storm Bolter, x3 Marines with Bolters, Missile Launcher = 82pts

For 246pts that's 33 up to 48 S4 shoots... to put into perspective that's more saturation than 3 Aggressors shooting once (for double the price). But for that cost you get 15 bodies in separate squads that laugh at multiwound damage, 5 CPs, the possibility to help destroying vehicles with your krak missiles, and mobile objective takers (unlike plasma tacticals).

Sure scouts are more mobile (but they are ugly), sure Primaris are more cost effective (but they are Primaris), still i like my tactical the way they are : the backbone of my list.

[Berzul]

I don't play ANY primaris, yet. I'm holding off for the next edition.

 

As a player of armies composed exclusevly of chibi marines, and also as a player who loves bringing a ton of infantry, I can say that the Tactical Marine is absolutely NOT a competitive choice.

 

Their armor is not enough, when they only have one wound, and in a current state of the game where there is just so much firepower flying around. You either go with BIG blobs of units that can still pass morale, or small teams of high wound models, that can survive as the enemy chips away at you 1D at a time.

 

Tacticals, as stated, have far less stratagem support compares to Intercessors and other Primaris units. They have less range, less AP, less wounds, and overall less of everything.

 

Their good points are that they can brin heavy and special weapons, which is always nice, and can ride any transport, which can be useful but is situational.

 

I would not advice them as a competitive choice, at all.

 

That being said, I L O V E my tacticals, use them all the time, even in tournaments, and they surprise people when this small guys bust out 12 overcharged plasma shots from mid range, all three squads combined.

 

Thats the virtue of their special weapons. No matter how frail the model is when compared to the Primaris variants, the special weapons hit just as hard.

[Grand Master Raziel]

My thought is use them as platforms for heavy bolters and missile launchers to exploit the Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missile strats. Tacs are cheaper than Scouts with camo cloaks and have the same save in cover, and a better save in the open.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Grand Master Raziel

[Berzul]

My thought is use them as platforms for heavy bolters and missile launchers to exploit the Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missile strats. Tacs are cheaper than Scouts with camo cloaks and have the same save in cover.

I agree. This is the best use for them.

 

I still play them as plasma teams, with combi plasmas and plasma guns, but missile launcher and heavy bolter teams is the best possible composition for them.

 

Also, they are REALLY good as grav gun sniper specialists in Kill Team. In that game, Grav is by far my favorite weapon. Super effective.

[Fierce Bear]

I second Berzul's 'plasma teams' drop podding two 5 man squads in to clear some Scarub Occult terminators off an objective is a thing to behold...

[Berzul]

My favourite grouping is

 

Azrael

Lieutenant

3*5 Tactical Squads, with Plasma Guns and Combi Plasmas, each

Company Ancient

 

Move up, fire with twin rerrolls, under a 4++ blanket, and should you die, you get to shoot on your way out.

[Solrac]

Dark Angel Tactical Marines are not competitive in ITC I'm afraid.

 

All marine armies are now shifting to Primaris units for their troops simply because they are harder to kill than Scouts and Tacticals. This is to make it harder for your opponent to score kill/kill more. Yes you pay more but the Primaris units are still very cost effective.

 

In your situation where you are starting to get your feet wet in the Tournament scene they would still be ok to use/fill cheap battalion Troop slots I would just keep them as home objective campers and keep them as cheap as possible i.e only bolters. Invest your points into more efficient options. Also local tournament meta's vary drastically so if you are just going to local tournaments you might notice the armies people take might be watered down versions of the optimal list for that faction.

[ValourousHeart]

The basic weapon that each unit gets and the stratagems are all that people tend to compare.

I believe the reason for that is that the old upgrades just fade in to the background, even though they are still useful.

 

The difference between Tacticals and Intercessors is flexibility verses durability.

Intercessors are harder to remove than tacticals, but will struggle vs targets that tactials have an upgrade for.

 

Sure you can look at models individually, but lets be honest for a second, we are talking about 40k, not Killteam.

In 40k you are taking multiple squads, and any points saved on one part of the list can boost another part of the list.

 

So 3 x 5 man tactical squad is 180 points, and 2 x 5 man Intercesors squads is 170... so 10 points is the difference between a Battalion and a Patrol.

Plus 5 CP for 10 points... yes please.

If you take it to the Brigade level, you are talking about an extra Land Raider or Repulsor Executioner for the points you saved by going with tacticals instead of Intercesors.

 

So if you want to get more elite, fast attack and heavy support units on the board, Scouts and Tactical squads can help you out.

[Berzul]

True, but then the question is between tacticals and scouts.

 

You can get those 5 CP for 20 points less.

 

3 squads of scouts with bolters are 165, so you even save 5 points. They fire the same shots as the 15 tacticals, have better positioning, and when in cover, they get a +3 save. So, yeah, they are a bit more vulnerable, but overall, the better choice, if you are taking the tacticals as they come, with no upgrades.

[Grand Master Raziel]

In addition, Scouts can also be used as platforms for heavy bolters and missile launchers, if you want to have them available for the MW-causing strats.

[ValourousHeart]

True, but then the question is between tacticals and scouts.

 

You can get those 5 CP for 20 points less.

 

3 squads of scouts with bolters are 165, so you even save 5 points. They fire the same shots as the 15 tacticals, have better positioning, and when in cover, they get a +3 save. So, yeah, they are a bit more vulnerable, but overall, the better choice, if you are taking the tacticals as they come, with no upgrades.

 

My point was that each of the units has something to offer. It all depends upon what you are going for.  No units are "useless" despite what some internet theories would have you believe.  Although granted there are certain units and upgrades that are better in certain situations than others.

[Berzul]

 

True, but then the question is between tacticals and scouts.

 

You can get those 5 CP for 20 points less.

 

3 squads of scouts with bolters are 165, so you even save 5 points. They fire the same shots as the 15 tacticals, have better positioning, and when in cover, they get a +3 save. So, yeah, they are a bit more vulnerable, but overall, the better choice, if you are taking the tacticals as they come, with no upgrades.

 

My point was that each of the units has something to offer. It all depends upon what you are going for.  No units are "useless" despite what some internet theories would have you believe.  Although granted there are certain units and upgrades that are better in certain situations than others.

 

In that sense, yeah.

 

The point here, I think, is not that Tacticals are worthless. Only that, in a competitive setting, the remaining options are just better in almost any case, for a competitive match against a min/max list that is fully optimized.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I have seen two schools of thought when it comes to Tactical vs Intercessor.

 

Tacticals are good but Intercessors are better.

vs

Intercessor are better therefore Tacticals are bad.

 

I myself only call a unit bad if it fails to to its job. If another unit can do the job better doesn't make Unit A automatically bad.

[Grand Master Raziel]

I'd say the main issue with Tacs is they don't really have any stratagems they can benefit from. You can equip them to be viable selections to use a strat on, but chances are you could have put something else in your list you would have gotten more benefit from.  WotDA? Plasma Devs would have been better. Honor of the Chapter? Assault Squad would have served you better. (Note - I'm only using Oldmarine units in these examples, as the topic is using Oldmarines). I imagine it's a deliberate design decision to make Intercessors a more attractive option, but it seems like a wasted opportunity too. GW spent 7 editions of the game trying to convince us Tactical Marines were the right and proper core of any Space Marine force, and now that there's a way to give them a mechanic that actually makes them play that way, GW refrains from doing so. Figures.

So, what Tacs do have going for them is they're cheaper than Scouts with camo cloaks, but as durable as them in cover and more so outside of cover. You can throw some upgrades on them that make it possible to exploit some utility stratagems with them, while saving the sexier strats for sexier units. They're not hopeless, they just occupy an awkward middle ground between cheap (Scouts) and sexy (Intercessors).

As far as Oldmarine units go, I have to say I like me some Company Veterans. I like to give them plasma guns or combi-plasmas and chainswords. They can ride in a Rhino or Razorback with a character, they're a decent unit to use Weapons of the Dark Age with, and with their 2 attacks base and bonus for having chainswords, they have respectable assault output too. And the Sergeant Vet has 3 attacks base, so it becomes worth giving him an upgraded close combat weapon. Plus, the unit of robed badasses just looks cool on the table.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

For a while in the early days of 8th, I was running 5 man tac squads with a lascannon, with the other 4 essentially functioning as ablative wounds. We can pull that trick off better than some other chapters (except maybe salamanders) because we don't need a babysitting captain as much. The extra range from our doctrines helps now as well. These days I prefer scouts, but if you're looking for a role for the humble tactical squad, I think that's one.

[Cpt_Reaper]

My tactical squads always run 10 man, full strength with special and heavy weapon. Always have, always will. 30 Astartes is the core of my force. I will be bringing my 3x5 intercessors up to 10 man squads eventually too.

 

MSU rubs me the wrong way. If a full squad is wrong, I don't want to be right.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I remember the days when a Space Marine was armed and armoured with the best equipment that the Imperium could supply; and when the Space Marine was the weapon of choice.(fluff, not table ofc.)

 

Nowadays it's all too confusing with Cawl messing things up ;)

 

But OT, Tactical Marines are a bit stuck, if you don't mind not being semi-elite anymore and horde them they can do good work earning CP and holding objectives.

[Solrac]

Tacticals are great in other game modes like Narrative or campaign. Heck there's a guy at my local GW that runs them in our weekly league and he is doing just fine. But the OP did ask how are they in ITC/Tournaments? In that situation they are lack lustre. As I said they are fine if you intend to use them in your local RTT's or just starting out in Tournaments and want to get some games in but if you want to try and do as well as you can any other troops choice is a better choice for ITC and Tournaments currently.

[Interrogator Stobz]

That's true. They are excellent in Kill Team too, but not in ITC type tournament play.

[Hellunder]

I converted 2  squads of tacs into scouts, just remove the shoulder pads and put heads without helmets on them instead. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5gBjMUnbSj/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

Painted:

https://www.instagram.com/p/B5n37BfHKZe/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

Another idea is to put painted gauze on their backs to make them "play-as" scouts-

 

2 squads of Scouts with storm bolter searg + 1 intercessor squad  really carried my latest game vs orks. Scouts could with AP-1  turn  2 easily take down 4-5 tank bustas, 5 intercessors shoots 20 shots with the rapid fire strat.  Very effective.

Scouts are also a very good screen unit for talonmaster/sammael.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Hellunder

[Berzul]

Wow that looks REALLY good!

[Fierce Bear]