How/when do SMs upgrade arms and armor?

[bushman101]

A thought has occurred to me as I begin to build my Horus Heresy army.

 

When you get a box of 40k marines (not Primaris), you often get mixed armor marks and various patterns of similar weapons. And when you see the art in the rules/codex/whatever, you will again see Space Marines from the same Chapter/Legion/whatever with different forms of weapons and armor.

 

So how and when to Space Marines upgrade gear? It's odd to think that a Space Marine in the 'current' story would run around in MK 5 Heresy armor and yet we do see that in various forms.

 

Is it a matter of preference? Maybe a chapter has always used MK 6 armor and they aren't about to change? And those old bolters...

 

And maintenance on old weapons and armor must be awful. Would it not be better to get 'newer' gear after a bit? 

 

Any thoughts?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Because, to the Imperium, old technology is holy. Marines don't get to request what sort of armour they get, but a Marine might get bequeathed a pauldron from a Mk3 suit in recognition of their deeds, or a Sergeant might be given a Mk4 helmet upon attaining the rank, etc.

 

It's not just "an old piece of technology", it's a holy relic both from the history of the Chapter, worn during the defense of Terra itself, etc.

[Bryan Blaire]

Newer gear would have a reputation for being intrinsically less "good" due to the view that older Tech is better because Humanity is slowly falling backward tech-wise, and is maintained by a religious order. Now, this does neglect the idea that the newer forms of armor may actually be slightly better, but there's a lot of reverence for older things as relics of the golden past of man.

 

Older items may in fact be easier to maintain, and might have functions lost in the new forms.

 

So an "upgrade" to a Marine may actully involve getting Brother Bob's Mk4 breastplate when advancing to sergeant, etc.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Plus, some older armour was explicitly designed with ease of repair and maintenance in mind, such as Mk5, and to a lesser extent the Mk6 that built off it.

 

Mk4 armour was seen as being among the best of the marks, protection-wise, but the hardest in terms of upkeep, although that may be minimized given the centralized resources of a Chapter, compared to the crusading nature of the Legions.

[bushman101]

hmmm....

 

A part of me gets the relic part of the Space Marine armor. 

 

I guess the hard part is seeing something survive 10,000 years of use and abuse

[Lord_Caerolion]

10,000 years of use and abuse while undergoing religiously-obsessive care and maintenance.

[The Unseen]

Not just the reverence marines have for their equipment, but also survivorship bias.

It's crazy to have pieces seeing use survive for so long, but think of all the pieces that have been completely lost over the years?

Also ship of theseus.

If a suit/piece of armor/weapon/vehicle has been replaced entirely over the many years, is it still the same thing?

The marines will of course say yes, as the machine spirit of the wargear has remained the same.

[bushman101]

Interesting points.

Let me ask this, what would motivate someone or the chapter to get and use newer gear?

 

 

Also ship of theseus.
 

Very interesting argument. I suppose if they always continue to make parts, they could 'upkeep' the arms and armor indefinitely. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Ease of supply, lack of access, potentially lack of necessary materials. 

 

They might be able to maintain the older marks, and manufacture new ones to a lesser extent, but the newer marks (7/10) are by far the easiest to manufacture new instances of. 

[Dumah]

In the post-Indomitus era, with the introduction of Mark X, I wonder how Mark 8 armor is perceived? It must be considered relatively advanced, given that the Minotaurs are known to have a lot of it and are regarded as being very well equipped. That along with the Primaris armors fly in the face of "older is better".

[Magos Takatus]

To be fair though the newer gear has the sanction of the only openly active Primarch left is existence. If he says this new armour pattern has links back to the heresy then it seems that it's good enough for most chapters. 

[Panzer]

Even with Primaris armour, old armour is considered sacred relics. You can see more veteran Primaris use older marks shoulder pads, helments, etc.

[Bung]

It depends alot of the chapter forges and Techmarines what they are able to produce or what the supporting Forgeworlds are abele to produce, willing to part.

On the other side there is alot of superstition regarding some Marks like the Mk V.

 

If you go to the armour history Mk I was replaced after the Emperor started to leave Earth as the Mk I wasnt fully enclosed and supported only the upper torso and arms.

The Great Crusade started with the Mk II while the Mk III was an reinforced Mk II for things like boarding actions.

 

Before the Heresy started the Legions started to replace their Mk II with the Mk IV which was then the pinacle of power armour.

 

At the begin of the Heresy only 2 Legions had the Mk VI Armour, the Raven Guard for field testing and the Alpha Legion due to their nature.

 

The Mk V was a gap filler during the Heresy to meld al sorts of replacement parts to get a working armour for a marine and not a new invention.

Alot of chapters dont use the Mk V as it remembers them at the dark times of the Heresy.

 

The Mk VII isnt that technological advanced as the Mk VI but is reverse compatible to other armour marks.

 

The rest comes down, whats available to the chapter, what can it produce or secure themselfes or from others. 

I think its in the Salamaders Trilogy, where another chapter presses the Salamanders to gift them new sets of power armour.

Maybe a Squad Member takes a Shoulder pad as a memory of their fallen Sergeant. 

Or the get a Veteran status that allows them to wear a chapter relic in form of a armour that served in the Heresy.

 

There is a lot of reason to mix armours in the 40k universe.

You will find alot more info on that in the Deathwatch RPG books.

[Closet Skeleton]

41st millenium (mini) marines don't wear power armour of any mark and haven't since the plastic marines were released in 3rd edition. In 2nd edition and end of first marines wore Mark VII and the original marine design was retconned to be Mark VI. Then Jes Goodwin sculpted the multipart plastic tactical squad with a mix of Mark VI and VII legs, mostly Mark VII torsos but 1 mark V one and 1 mark VIII and mostly mark VII heads but two mark VI heads thrown in as options. This was the end of marine models being released as in marks of armour and led to a status quo where marines were in hodge podge suits.

 

Some time later the Death Company kit brought out a serious mix of armour parts including bits of mark II and III and IV. The newer tactical squad has 1 pair of mark IV legs, a proper Mark V/VI studded shoulder pad, proper torsors for marks IV, V, VI and VII and heads for marks IV, VI and VII.

 

So we have a mark III tactical squad box and a mark IV one but there is no plastic box for making a whole squad in Mark VII armour despite that in theory being the 'norm'.

 

Mark VIII is the only post heresy suit of classic armour, so Mark VII is much closer in time to Mark IV then it is to the 41st millenium.

 

Basically there are four marks of power armour, the mark IV the rubrics have, the mark III plague marines have, the mark VIII in the deathwatch veterans box and the Mark X and its variants primaris use. Everyone else is just in 'power armour'. Heresy and Great Crusade era armour came off mechanicum run production lines in factories, modern chapter armour is made by chapter serfs in fortress monestaries so it doesn't come in 'marks'.

 

I would headcanon that the mark VIII used by Minotaurs and deathwatch is still made on production lines to industrial standards but the supply lines just aren't there for that to be the normal way of equiping chapters.

 

This generic mark VII based with various other parts is the most up to date form of power armour for mini-marines. Its basically a return to mark V which isn't really a mark as it was never standardised (but neither was mark I as that covers all of earths techno-barbarians). If a marine has mark IV parts they're not up to date, his armour is already as up to date as possible and may even be more up to date than the mark VIII or even the mark X in that mark VIII is a scouring era design frozen in time and the mark X model kits represent indomitus crusade members not post Indomitus 'gone native' primaris marines like in the Emperor's Spears book.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[SpecialIssue]

A thought has occurred to me as I begin to build my Horus Heresy army.

 

When you get a box of 40k marines (not Primaris), you often get mixed armor marks and various patterns of similar weapons. And when you see the art in the rules/codex/whatever, you will again see Space Marines from the same Chapter/Legion/whatever with different forms of weapons and armor.

 

So how and when to Space Marines upgrade gear? It's odd to think that a Space Marine in the 'current' story would run around in MK 5 Heresy armor and yet we do see that in various forms.

 

Is it a matter of preference? Maybe a chapter has always used MK 6 armor and they aren't about to change? And those old bolters...

 

And maintenance on old weapons and armor must be awful. Would it not be better to get 'newer' gear after a bit? 

 

Any thoughts?

 

I doubt very many people/institutions except the most cynical or 'evil' would even think of the idea of swapping equipment out as an 'upgrade' - to do so would disrespect the machine spirit that has served you faithfully and gotten you this far. To think this way would be to think of machines as disposable, inanimate objects; which is the complete opposite to the cultural values of the Imperium/Cult Mechanicus. 

 

We replace equipment wholesale and all at once across industries/armies due to our industrial-scale implementation and mindset, and the economic efficiencies inherent. Marines are not an industrial-scale army or institution (with all those massive logistical needs) but rather are more akin to a small feudal house. The industrial base they need and have is more akin to pre-industrial craftsmen/cottage industry production and maintenance. Under such low levels of production and in the cultural (machines are sacred) & technological (newer tech is not that much better/is sometimes worse) atmospheres of the Imperium, you definitely have the cultural drivers and economic rationale to dedicate craftsmen hours to maintain old equipment rather than replace it. Most repair parts are bespoke and made on-demand by individuals, or boutique one-of-a-kind manufacturing rigs set-up and adapted across the generations to the specific needs/preferences of the chapter's techmarines.

 

The industrial scale of production and equipment issue was seen with the legions, but along with the organisation structure it supported, was made untenable in the wake of the Heresy and the return of the 'normal' galactic state of the warp.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Interesting points.

Let me ask this, what would motivate someone or the chapter to get and use newer gear?

 

Stuff breaks and gets lost. Say in an engagement Brother Beanus gets shot in the head, Brother Anikus gets his arm cut off and Brother Genericus falls off a ledge and his body cannot be recovered. As well as 2 men, the Chapter is down one full suit of armour, probably an arm and a damaged helmet (which my not be able to be repaired). Over a century or so that attrition is going to build up, at best depleting surplus stockpiles, at worst putting the Chapter into an equipment deficit. Either way, it'd be a very stupid Chapter Master that turns his nose up at a resupply with newly manufactured gear (which may still be of older marks but newly built, at least pre-Primaris).

 

 

 

I doubt very many people/institutions except the most cynical or 'evil' would even think of the idea of swapping equipment out as an 'upgrade' - to do so would disrespect the machine spirit that has served you faithfully and gotten you this far. To think this way would be to think of machines as disposable, inanimate objects; which is the complete opposite to the cultural values of the Imperium/Cult Mechanicus. 

 

Sorry, but that sounds like fan theorising and flanderisation taken to 11. Marines do swap out an upgrade equipment. First there's the basic stuff, like a Devastator upgrading from bolter to HB/lascannon etc. Doing that clearly isn't 'disrespecting' the weapon he used to carry. Damaged armour is salvaged for parts (like Pasinius's armour McNeill's Ultramarine stories). Marines will swap out power armour for artificer/TDA when they gain sufficient rank. Bolters are replaced by Storm Bolters/Combis, Chainblades with power blades etc. Deathwatch Marines swap out their entire arsenals for more advanced PA and bolters than standard Chapter issue etc. If upgrades were viewed as 'evil', Chapter Masters would still be equipped like Tactical Marines

 

Now, what a Chapter is unlikely to do is throw the old stuff away. Both practically (mothballed spares are better than nothing) and for traditional/reverential reasons.

[MajorNese]

In the post-Indomitus era, with the introduction of Mark X, I wonder how Mark 8 armor is perceived? It must be considered relatively advanced, given that the Minotaurs are known to have a lot of it and are regarded as being very well equipped. That along with the Primaris armors fly in the face of "older is better".

Minotaurs are a bit peculiar regarding their resupply - they quickly replace any magnitude of losses, supposedly because of their connection to the high lords. So in that case it might rather be an instant resupply by freshly produced material, instead of going the long route of repairing salvaged suits. Chapters with resupply troubles are instead noted to painstakingly repairing anything they have left, and therefore fielding more "relic" wargear. Most chapters should lie inbetween - repair and acquire what they can, then play the swap game.

 

Interesting points.

Let me ask this, what would motivate someone or the chapter to get and use newer gear?

The Raptors are known for being mostly equipped with newer stuff. Since their original homeworld and chapter monastery got blown up, anything not used or carried by the survivors was lost. New stuff might not be as revered, but it does work after all. But Raptors are known to be unusually pragmatic...

[SpecialIssue]

 

 

 

I doubt very many people/institutions except the most cynical or 'evil' would even think of the idea of swapping equipment out as an 'upgrade' - to do so would disrespect the machine spirit that has served you faithfully and gotten you this far. To think this way would be to think of machines as disposable, inanimate objects; which is the complete opposite to the cultural values of the Imperium/Cult Mechanicus. 

 

Sorry, but that sounds like fan theorising and flanderisation taken to 11. Marines do swap out an upgrade equipment. First there's the basic stuff, like a Devastator upgrading from bolter to HB/lascannon etc. Doing that clearly isn't 'disrespecting' the weapon he used to carry. Damaged armour is salvaged for parts (like Pasinius's armour McNeill's Ultramarine stories). Marines will swap out power armour for artificer/TDA when they gain sufficient rank. Bolters are replaced by Storm Bolters/Combis, Chainblades with power blades etc. Deathwatch Marines swap out their entire arsenals for more advanced PA and bolters than standard Chapter issue etc. If upgrades were viewed as 'evil', Chapter Masters would still be equipped like Tactical Marines

 

Now, what a Chapter is unlikely to do is throw the old stuff away. Both practically (mothballed spares are better than nothing) and for traditional/reverential reasons.

 

 

I think you've missed the point of the original post that I was answering. We are talking about why they don't seem to replace older marks of equipment for newer marks of equipment (i.e. one pattern of bolter with another), or standardize all equipment on one mark - not about about the changes in specialist equipment between roles, or the natural progression of different equipment a Marine will inherit throughout his career. A Marine will not conflate the spirit of a bolter with that of a heavy bolter, or a chainsword, etc.

 

Chapters are often a hodge-podge of marks of equipment between individuals within the same role for the reasons stated. As always in 40k though, there can and will be exceptions, such as the Minotaurs or Deathwatch as mentioned above. Note however for these two examples in particular - they have powerful institutional backing from an outside source which means logistically they can can maintain this homogenized equipment.

[Vermintide]

Rule of Cool is canon in the 40k universe.

 

The badass gauntlet that helped Brother Artuno the Grim slaughter fifty genestealers single handed in M37.788 is legitimately better than a new one fresh from the forgeworld, and the tech adepts of a chapter's armoury revere it as such. That's when they stick all the fancy gold eagles and purity seals on it, which of course make it even better.

 

Much like a veteran soldier becomes more effective through his experience, the machine spirit of equipment becomes hardened in battle.

 

If you want a "realistic" explanation consider that the level of tech is so advanced (hence why nobody fully understands it any more) that even an apparently humble bolter could very well have low-level adaptive, deep learning AI that makes it more accurate or whatever.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Sorry, but that sounds like fan theorising and flanderisation taken to 11. Marines do swap out an upgrade equipment. First there's the basic stuff, like a Devastator upgrading from bolter to HB/lascannon etc. Doing that clearly isn't 'disrespecting' the weapon he used to carry. Damaged armour is salvaged for parts (like Pasinius's armour McNeill's Ultramarine stories). Marines will swap out power armour for artificer/TDA when they gain sufficient rank. Bolters are replaced by Storm Bolters/Combis, Chainblades with power blades etc. Deathwatch Marines swap out their entire arsenals for more advanced PA and bolters than standard Chapter issue etc. If upgrades were viewed as 'evil', Chapter Masters would still be equipped like Tactical Marines

 

A devastator taking a heavy weapon is not an upgrade, its a equipment option based on role. Devastators are trainee tactical marines so those lascannon guys will go back to bolters at some point in their carreer.

 

No one 'upgrades' to a storm bolter or combi-weapon. Some officers might favour one and bring it into the field when possible but in general they will take the equipment needed for the mission. A sergeant might be allowed to requisition a combi-melta if the scenario requires extra anti-armour in tactical squads and then go back to bolt pistol and chainsword on his next deployment.

 

Deathwatch swap their kit out but usually don't take it with them when they return to their original chapters.

Artificer armour is way rarer in 8th, whether it was intended as a given equipment option for captains the way it was in practice in older editions is anyone's guess.

 

Except for the Deathwing, all terminators can deploy as other kinds of veteran squad and go back to their power armour.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

 

I doubt very many people/institutions except the most cynical or 'evil' would even think of the idea of swapping equipment out as an 'upgrade' - to do so would disrespect the machine spirit that has served you faithfully and gotten you this far. To think this way would be to think of machines as disposable, inanimate objects; which is the complete opposite to the cultural values of the Imperium/Cult Mechanicus. 

 

Sorry, but that sounds like fan theorising and flanderisation taken to 11. Marines do swap out an upgrade equipment. First there's the basic stuff, like a Devastator upgrading from bolter to HB/lascannon etc. Doing that clearly isn't 'disrespecting' the weapon he used to carry. Damaged armour is salvaged for parts (like Pasinius's armour McNeill's Ultramarine stories). Marines will swap out power armour for artificer/TDA when they gain sufficient rank. Bolters are replaced by Storm Bolters/Combis, Chainblades with power blades etc. Deathwatch Marines swap out their entire arsenals for more advanced PA and bolters than standard Chapter issue etc. If upgrades were viewed as 'evil', Chapter Masters would still be equipped like Tactical Marines

 

Now, what a Chapter is unlikely to do is throw the old stuff away. Both practically (mothballed spares are better than nothing) and for traditional/reverential reasons.

 

 

I think you've missed the point of the original post that I was answering. We are talking about why they don't seem to replace older marks of equipment for newer marks of equipment (i.e. one pattern of bolter with another), or standardize all equipment on one mark - not about about the changes in specialist equipment between roles, or the natural progression of different equipment a Marine will inherit throughout his career. A Marine will not conflate the spirit of a bolter with that of a heavy bolter, or a chainsword, etc.

 

Chapters are often a hodge-podge of marks of equipment between individuals within the same role for the reasons stated. As always in 40k though, there can and will be exceptions, such as the Minotaurs or Deathwatch as mentioned above. Note however for these two examples in particular - they have powerful institutional backing from an outside source which means logistically they can can maintain this homogenized equipment.

 

But they do upgrade. Now, with bolters it's a bit trickier, as what counts as an upgrade is quite nebulous (Is a Phobos better than a Godwyn? What about Umbra?), but its' clearer for armour. Most strikingly MkVIII errant. It's undeniably more advanced than MkVII, but production has nowhere near caught up with demand, so only relatively few suits are shipped out, which often are used by more veteran Marines in the recipient Chapters. It's not Heresy or 'evil' for these Marines to upgrade from MkVII suits to VIII, it's no different from upgrading to a relic MkIV suit from MKVII. Would pre-Primaris Chapters like to roll out Errant Armour en masse to he ranks? Almost certainly. But that's not the reality of the logistical system, so they don't. It's analogous to real world militaries, they'd like to universally have the shiny new thing, but they often have to make do with a mix, especially in wartime. Examples include the WW2 Panther, intended to replace the PzIV, but served alongside them for the entire war. Or the Isreali army deploying Shermans along with the more modern Centurions and M48s in the 1960s. This doesn't require any special 'appeal to 40k neo-feudalism and superstition', it's just how procurement and replenishment function in extreme circumstances (40k is always extreme, granted). While something still works, it'll find a use.

[Gederas]

I'm in agreement with Vermintide, it's because Rule of Cool is one of the fundamental rules of the 40k universe, as well as every single piece of tech basically having some of rudimentary AI (the Machine Spirit).

 

Almost certainly. But that's not the reality of the logistical system, so they don't. It's analogous to real world militaries, they'd like to universally have the shiny new thing, but they often have to make do with a mix, especially in wartime. Examples include the WW2 Panther, intended to replace the PzIV, but served alongside them for the entire war. Or the Isreali army deploying Shermans along with the more modern Centurions and M48s in the 1960s. This doesn't require any special 'appeal to 40k neo-feudalism and superstition', it's just how procurement and replenishment function in extreme circumstances (40k is always extreme, granted). While something still works, it'll find a use.

Another shining example of this:

The Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II, AKA "The Warthog". That damned plane is 47 years old which is considered ridiculously ancient by any military, and with how well it's designed and performed, isn't going away anytime soon (much to the chagrin of the brass )

 

Also don't forget: Israel was also using Panzer IVs during the 60s (and into the 80s iirc?)

Edited March 13, 2020 by Gederas

[Sky Potato]

I'm in agreement with Vermintide, it's because Rule of Cool is one of the fundamental rules of the 40k universe, as well as every single piece of tech basically having some of rudimentary AI (the Machine Spirit).

 

 

Almost certainly. But that's not the reality of the logistical system, so they don't. It's analogous to real world militaries, they'd like to universally have the shiny new thing, but they often have to make do with a mix, especially in wartime. Examples include the WW2 Panther, intended to replace the PzIV, but served alongside them for the entire war. Or the Isreali army deploying Shermans along with the more modern Centurions and M48s in the 1960s. This doesn't require any special 'appeal to 40k neo-feudalism and superstition', it's just how procurement and replenishment function in extreme circumstances (40k is always extreme, granted). While something still works, it'll find a use.

Another shining example of this:

 

The Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II, AKA "The Warthog". That damned plane is 47 years old which is considered ridiculously ancient by any military, and with how well it's designed and performed, isn't going away anytime soon (much to the chagrin of the brass )

 

Also don't forget: Israel was also using Panzer IVs during the 60s (and into the 80s iirc?)

C-130s are much older airframes than the A-10.

 

And a better comparison in this case is the Browning M2 .50 cal machine gun. Entered service in 1933. Damn thing is almost 100 years old and it’s still incredibly effective now.

[bushman101]

interesting comments all around.

 

Let me ask this: Does it seem certain older gear is more favored than other old gear. 

2 examples:

You don't see a lot of 'current' marines using older style Jump Packs.

Most 'modern' marines use the new type of Missile Launcher. Not the old 'Shark' style one. (I thought GW was sweeping the old 'Shark Launchers" under the rug...and then they showed up in HH) 

[Panzer]

Well there are two main reasons for why you don't see many Marines with the older style gear.

First is, because even if they are considered holy relics they eventually do break and as is the nature of the 40k setting a lot of knowledge got lost. So over time some kinds of gear simply isn't around anymore.

Second is, because GW doesn't produce models with that gear anymore. However that's only the representation as far as it goes for models. It doesn't mean it actually represents the status quo in the fluff.