Havocs vs CSM With Heavy Weapons

[Doom Herald]

I've been trying a Havoc Squad in my 1,000 point list and it feels like they're running a little lackluster. I'm running a bare-bones Champion with 2 Lascannon models and 2 Missile Launchers. They aren't exactly bad, but they just dont seem to perform well, even in a Devestation battery. The problem I have is that most heavy units I want them to take out have an equivalent range on their weapons and the Havocs have a lot less toughness and only one wound each. The Havocs are also vulnerable to other infantry. Then against infantry, the missile launcher doesn't really seem to do much. It may just be the way the dice have been rolling, but this is how it's been going. I'm curious about how people have been finding Havocs compared to just taking CSM squads with heavy weapons. I've been using the long range weapons because my army has close and mid range pretty well covered.

[Tyriks]

I think missile launchers are a waste of points, to be frank.  Yes, they're 'versatile,' but when they struggle to perform either role it's hard to see that as a perk.  I almost always bring my Havocs with Heavy Bolters or Autocannons and just use them to pick on infantry and let other stuff worry about armor.  If you load them up with lascannons they make too enticing a target.  So, mine are always a cheap support unit, but I'm not playing competitively or anything.

[Doom Herald]

I think missile launchers are a waste of points, to be frank. Yes, they're 'versatile,' but when they struggle to perform either role it's hard to see that as a perk. I almost always bring my Havocs with Heavy Bolters or Autocannons and just use them to pick on infantry and let other stuff worry about armor. If you load them up with lascannons they make too enticing a target. So, mine are always a cheap support unit, but I'm not playing competitively or anything.

Would you say missile launchers are a waste on CSM squads as well? I generally stay away from normal heavy weapons and use melee hitters and Obliterators for anti-armor. I was experimenting with adding some range, but the way it's going I'm strongly considering just adding another Venomcrawler and upgrading some wargear for the points.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Missile launchers are awfully swingy in frag mode, and the lack of AP hurts them against any but the lightest infantry. If you're shooting at other Marines, you'd better be shooting krak missiles.

 

Las-Havocs do tend to have bullseyes on them the moment they hit the board, so they need to be protected. Alpha Legion does it best with their Trait and the F&F strat that gives a unit character-type shooting protection; more generically, there's Benediction of Darkness, Miasma of Pestilence, Delightful Agonies, or starting in a transport for first-turn protection.

 

Layering multiples of such on a single unit might sound wasteful, but it depends on the army's size and composition. If those quad-Las Havocs are your only ranged antitank in say 1500 points, you'd better be willing to protect them.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Iron Father Ferrum

[Kain Mor]

The other advantage havocs have is the mobility of not taking a penalty on their heavy weapons and the easy synergy with various +1 to hit/wound options. I’ve played at least fifty games with two squads of havocs in my Night Lords, and they’ve consistently been one of the highest value units I use. I typically run squads of Chainguns, missile launchers, or lascannons and always in a pure squad.

Like others have said transports are good for T1 protection, but also if you’re playing with an at all adequate amount of terrain it is very easy to hide 5 infantry models safely and just step them out to blast a target.

 

Disclaimer, I only play GW missions and rules so this may not apply to ITC shenanigans.

[Excessus]

Personally I like the good old autocannon in CSM squads. The static 2D is nice, and it barely costs anything.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I ran the numbers on Havocs and their weapon efficiency when they first came out, and also about CSM in general.

 

Here's the post in the thread that covers missile launchers (there's more stuff earlier in the thread, and also on page 2): http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/354898-havoc-mathhammer/?do=findComment&comment=5288392

 

The conclusion is that missile launchers are bad because frag missiles are bad. Autocannons actually kill more, even of horde infantry, and are dead cheap.

 

You could put autocannons on your havocs, and hide lascannons in CSM squads where they will be better protected.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Drudge Dreadnought

[Trevak Dal]

Havoc's are concentrated damage, while having a heavy in a CTac squad (chaos marine squad) is localized heavy support.

 

Back when havocs could take special weapons, I'd run groups with flamers and combiflamers along my zerkers, sorta sweep and clear.

[d@n]

Just take 10 csm with mark of slaneesh with two laps cannons and endless cacophony, and your opponent has to chew through 8 marines before he can get rid of the Las cannons plus your objective secured

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Just take 10 csm with mark of slaneesh with two laps cannons and endless cacophony, and your opponent has to chew through 8 marines before he can get rid of the Las cannons plus your objective secured

 

Better to take 2 5 man squads with 1 cannon each so you can be on 2 different objectives, have 2 champs worth of gear, and not get wrecked by morale. Endless isn't worth spending on just 2 lascannon guys. Save it for oblits, screened havocs, or plasma terminators.

[d@n]

 

Just take 10 csm with mark of slaneesh with two laps cannons and endless cacophony, and your opponent has to chew through 8 marines before he can get rid of the Las cannons plus your objective secured

 

 

Better to take 2 5 man squads with 1 cannon each so you can be on 2 different objectives, have 2 champs worth of gear, and not get wrecked by morale. Endless isn't worth spending on just 2 lascannon guys. Save it for oblits, screened havocs, or plasma terminators.

you use the endless cacophony when you really need those 4 Las cannon shots that's why one unit with two Las cannons is better then two units, each with one Las cannon as you can only use the strat once a turn. Once the Las cannons have done their job then you can use endless cacophony on your termys or oblitorators ect.