Primaris Inferiority Complex?

[Grand Master Raziel]

I've been having this thought I've been meaning to drop into another thread, but an opportunity never seems to present itself, so here goes: you think maybe the Deathwing and the Ravenwing make Primaris Greenwing feel a little inadequate? I mean, here they are, getting told by Guilliman and Cawl that they're the cutting edge of supersoldiers, better than old Marines in every way. Then they reach the Dark Angels and successors, and there are these two cool, aloof secret societies within the chapters they can't join.

 

Especially the Ravenwing.  Primaris Marines might think Aggressors could eventually be brought into the Deathwing, but the new guys don't have any equipment like what the Ravenwing use and the badass abilities and strats that come with them. There must be at least a few Primaris Dark Angels going to bed at night wishing they could tear around the battlefield on a Black Knight's bike.

[Jings]

I'm still pretty surprised they haven't absorbed the Vanguard units into the Ravenwing.

[Berzul]

I've been having this thought I've been meaning to drop into another thread, but an opportunity never seems to present itself, so here goes: you think maybe the Deathwing and the Ravenwing make Primaris Greenwing feel a little inadequate? I mean, here they are, getting told by Guilliman and Cawl that they're the cutting edge of supersoldiers, better than old Marines in every way. Then they reach the Dark Angels and successors, and there are these two cool, aloof secret societies within the chapters they can't join.

 

Especially the Ravenwing.  Primaris Marines might think Aggressors could eventually be brought into the Deathwing, but the new guys don't have any equipment like what the Ravenwing use and the badass abilities and strats that come with them. There must be at least a few Primaris Dark Angels going to bed at night wishing they could tear around the battlefield on a Black Knight's bike.

I'll admit, this did make me chuckle. I could imagine the Primaris, sitting around a table, just complaining about how the oh-so-cool deathwing and ravenwing make them feel inadequate

 

I do not think this is the case, though. I do not think GW would put fuel into a fire like that. Feeding into the idea of MORE division between Primaris Marines and Legacy Marines. They have worked (kinda) hard into making sure everyone accepts the Primaris, and for everyone to be oh-so-cool about this new Guillimarines sharing room and board with the most secretive and non-compliant chapters around.

 

Why would they give us even MORE reasons for the Legacy divisions to distrust and shun the Primaris? Or even, for the Primaris to shun themselves, out of their own feelings of inadequacy.

 

Specially since, by lore, sure enough, eventually only the Primaris Marines will remain. By old age, or enemy fire, the Legacy Marines will die out. It is a matter of when, not if (in lore, at least). So, once aaaaaall the old guard of the 1st and 2nd companies die out, who will be left to form the Death and Raven wings?

 

... Primaris! That's who!

 

They just need to bide their time.

[Bryan Blaire]

Why does everyone seem to act like Primaris have been told they are “better”? Is that in a book somewhere? I mean an actual in character statement regarding their training saying they are better, or a statement by a Primaris saying “The Primarch said we were better” or something.

 

I think people get so wrapped up in the meta-/out of story data we have that they forget that the Primaris are still just Marines. Yes, they have some funky views regarding the Mechanicum, we’ve seen them depicted as having some Omnissiah type predilections which are weird in Marines, the initial ones seemed to view tech/Ad Mech with more reverence, but otherwise they are Marines. They live to fight, they go through the hypnoindoctrination, etc. They only seem to question their place in Chapter structures because the standard Astartes question their place - imagine you’re one of these new Marines that have been handed off, being told “These are your brothers now” only to be held at arms length by them - yes, it might make you question things, if you were so inclined - you know who else likely feels a similar way in the Unforgiven though? Standard Greenwing Astartes (or their Chapter equivalent).

 

If there’s anyone that has an inkling of understanding the Primaris situation, it’s all the Greenwing Marines that have never been tapped to join either of the two special organizations - and what do they do? I don’t think they sit around wringing their hands, wondering “What do I do to join the special bois???” They are Marines - they resolve to fight harder, sell their lives for the Emperor, etc. The normal Greenwing Marines don’t even know what the “requirements” to join the Ravenwing or Deathwing even are - if they even wonder if there are requirements in the first place.

 

It would be out of character for Marines to sit there plotting and angling for “promotion”, it’s not their way, nor is being resentful for not being included in special units - they very likely know that they just aren’t supposed to ask, and the Primaris likely learn this quickly as well “for the most part” - the inquisitive ones tend to find themselves in situations. The Primaris created in the Rock, or amongst the other Unforgiven Chapters won’t even have that issue, because they would just be brought up in the Chapter’s traditions anyway.

 

I find that it’s usually the players who look to find ways the “division” between standard Astartes and Primaris would continue - the nature of Marines speaks to the opposite happening.

[Gederas]

Why does everyone seem to act like Primaris have been told they are “better”? Is that in a book somewhere? I mean an actual in character statement regarding their training saying they are better, or a statement by a Primaris saying “The Primarch said we were better” or something.

All the fluff for Primaris states they're stronger, faster, more durable, etc than Firstborn marines. IE: All the fluff about Primaris states they're better.

 

The only reason why they're not always better than Firstborn is because when they were introduced to the Chapters is because a lot of them lacked the experience. Now we're 200 years past that.

 

Also:

I find that it’s usually the players who look to find ways the “division” between standard Astartes and Primaris would continue - the nature of Marines speaks to the opposite happening.

Even though the book is COMPLETE AND UTTER TRASH, War of Secrets is the first book with Primaris in the Dark Angels. And let's just say.... The division between Primaris and Firstborn in the Dark Angels is shown and it's massive. Also, a Primaris Marine flat-out says to a Firstborn that "you're outdated, we're the future and your replacement".

[Bryan Blaire]

Gederas - I think that you misunderstood that first point - it’s partially answered in the point about War of Secrets, and that’s that there is a depiction of a Primaris acting superior. If there are more of those kinds of depictions, that would be good to record.

 

My point is “What says the Primaris are told in character that they are superior?” We know from “out of character” fluff that their template has additional organs/modifications, giving them additional enhancements, but to me, it wouldn’t make sense for GW to actually have Primaris being told “You are superior” as opposed to “You were created as a weapon aimed at the heart of the Imperium’s enemies and have been enhanced to do that job better” - there’s ego involved in the first, while the second is a statement of fact. Just understanding that you’re a superior weapon due to inherent “upgrades” doesn’t automatically mean that they will shun/push aside fellow weapons.

 

In my mind, that statement was one of the flaws with War of Secrets, because that kind of statement and superiority is such a seemingly out of character type statement by a Marine. Marines are driven by their duty, not a sense of being “better” than their fellows, especially the Dark Angels - Space Wolves might be seeking glory, which gives way to ego fights, but it’s a total breaking of the duty-driven, guilt-laden psyche of Dark Angels to have an ego-driven superiority, comparison style statement like that to be made.

 

In reality, Marines don’t even have enough “personal time”/down time amongst training, praying, maintaining equipment, and eating to sit there ruminating on their personal ego and slights they feel we’re against them, and I actually don’t think that GW’s writing often expresses this all that well.

[Grand Master Raziel]

 

 

 

 

Even though the book is COMPLETE AND UTTER TRASH, War of Secrets is the first book with Primaris in the Dark Angels. And let's just say.... The division between Primaris and Firstborn in the Dark Angels is shown and it's massive. Also, a Primaris Marine flat-out says to a Firstborn that "you're outdated, we're the future and your replacement".

 

 

Primaris Dark Angel, to a Firstborn Dark Angel: I am way cooler and better than any of you Firstborn losers!

 

Ravenwing Marine: <Glares>

 

Deathwing Marine: Care to repeat that?

 

Primaris Dark Angel: Eep! Oh, look at the time! I have weapon cleaning rituals to attend!

[Bryan Blaire]

See, when the Primaris first came out, the only thought it triggered in me as a story was one where an Interrogator-Chaplain used one of the trigger words to immobilize Dark Angel Marines, and it didn’t work on the Primaris DA, who asks how a modern Chaplain would know a Calibanite word, did they maintain a written Book of the Lion somewhere, could he see it, etc, but also what he had done to his fellow DA. The IC then used the same word in a Gothic variation from the Great Crusade and it locked the Primaris up just like the rest of the DA - leaving the IC to wonder and be concerned about just what Guilliman and/or whoever this Cawl person was might know about Dark Angels hypoindoctrination trigger words, and if it indicated any deeper understanding of the Unforgiven.

 

I’m pretty sure that we haven’t seen all of the Primaris armament yet, eventually we’ll see some sort of equipment that GW is going to say is used by Primaris Marines in the Death- and Ravenwings, but at this point they are going to have to show-horn it in and try to hand-wave away “but it didn’t exist before now” out of game with “and they had it and this is how they joined” in game.

[jbaeza94]

Well aggressors already fight in the dw according to WD, and one of the new shadow spear units was in the rw

[Berzul]

That solves that.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Well aggressors already fight in the dw according to WD, and one of the new shadow spear units was in the rw

That is not quite correct, WD mentioned nothing about their wargear or battle role, except that they wore the heaviest Mk X plate. That could be gravis or there could be heavier plate. For the Primaris that joined the RW, they made absolutely no mention of his wargear.

[UtariOnzo]

Frankly, War of Secrets handled Primaris opinions in the most slap dash, awful way. It’s not a very good book, or even an interesting one, and seemed to over egg the Primaris Superiority. Fortunately, the ending does show somewhat these upstart Marines getting a healthy dose of humility in light of the Big Boss Fight and their new found knowledge, hopefully making them realise why they weren’t trusted.

 

I put more stock in the stoic, grim determination we saw of the Primaris being inducted into the Deathwing from the White Dwarf article.

[bigtrouble]

Frankly, War of Secrets handled Primaris opinions in the most slap dash, awful way. It’s not a very good book, or even an interesting one, and seemed to over egg the Primaris Superiority. Fortunately, the ending does show somewhat these upstart Marines getting a healthy dose of humility in light of the Big Boss Fight and their new found knowledge, hopefully making them realise why they weren’t trusted.

I put more stock in the stoic, grim determination we saw of the Primaris being inducted into the Deathwing from the White Dwarf article.

Hoo boy, is that book odd. It doesn’t feel like a book about Dark Angels at all. I am still committed to finishing it, but it’s not easy. The Tau stuff is cool, but OT for this thread.

[ChaplainNemiel]

I'm not sure how much longer I can pretend that Primaris don't exist.

Really disappointed with these mary-sues and don't want to see them in the ranks of the DW or RW.

[Gederas]

+++UNNECESSARY AND RUDE+++ Edited March 31, 2020 by Interrogator Stobz

[Berzul]

No need to be like that.

 

But, yeah. It's almost a fact by now, that Primaris will (sooner or later) be all that there is.

 

Lore itself supports this. Regular marines are dying out. Primaris are the future of the universe, at this point.

 

Some find it awesome. Others find it awful.

 

The only objective truth here is that they are here to stay, and we, the players of old marines can either switch to Primaris, or play around them as long as we can.

 

Nothing more to do.

[Skywrath]

I think the bigger picture here is this. Seeing how the space marines are a shadow of a primarch, and the gene-seed overwrites the recipients personality (mostly) to that of said primarch, the question we should be asking is: What would the Lion do? Now based of what I read, the 1st legion's speciality was exotic weapons and unconventional strategic tactics. The Lion was the epitome of the ends justify the means, which would by definition imply he has no gripes in who he has to run over to get his way. So by that logic, the Dark Angels would embody that belief, and they do. From the Lion's perspective, he kept everyone at a distance, which would mean that the primaris to him are no more than tools. So from that perspective, the Lion's tendency would be to adopt the primaris as he sees them as the better "tool" (Double goes to Asmodai, pun absolutely intended) than the firstborn. He was quite the visionary, if you really analyse him in depth, so there another point on why he would adopt them.

 

So will they ever adopt the Primaris into the Ravenwing/Deathwing? Absolutely. 

 

From a personal perspective, I prefer the primaris. While the War of Secrets was a pretty poorly written book, it did highlight the fact that they are more "purer" than their firstborn recipients. In fact, the primaris Dark Angels shown more readily their humanity then their firstborn brethren, which could signal the "redemption" of the first legion in the narrative sense. On the table-top, my favourite units would be the primaris versions, as I barely run any "older" units. Just my two cents.

 

Off-topic, but here is a theory I have - what if when the Lion awakens, he makes amends with the fallen (after what happened to Luthor/before the 40k millenium (the ones not corrupted by chaos, i.e the renegades)), judging them as potential allies first, and sons second, after seeing what the imperium has devolved into. That could further be confirmed with how Gulliman is legion building, so the Lion would want a legion to match Gullimans. So not out of compassion, but out of necessity. That would also kill the secrets of the angels, both tying up the that loose-end nicely, while redeeming them in the process. The Imperium doesn't know of the Fallen, as a general rule. It would be pretty easy to reintroduce the fallen elements of the Dark Angels as legionnaires, especially if you consider that one of the renegade successor chapters of the Dark Angels are still in contact with their parent legion. Not sure what that chapter was called, but w/e. Now some people would be wondering why did I write this theory? Because if you look at the primaris and their history so far, wouldn't you say they are a watered-down version of the theory I just proposed? (Except remove The Lion in this case, and substitute Azrael as the decision maker, anyone seeing the parallels?)  

Edited March 23, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Berzul]

That parallel would mean Azrael is:

 

1) Making amends with a faction that his brothers despise, but he himself had no real knowledge of them even existing beyond one battle against said faction (a battle which, in the case of the Lion, ended with him "dead"). This, I feel, has no real parallel.

 

2) Taking this faction his chapter hates, into the fold, as allies. This could be a parallel. Azrael has begrudgingly allowed the Primaris into the Chapter's circles to an extent.

 

3) Getting rid of the Chapter's secrets. I do not think this has a real parallel either. Azrael is keeping MORE secrets, if anything else.

 

I think that, if anything, the return of the Lion would be a catastrophic event. The cause for more than one schism of the Imperium, and the Chapter. I think he would (initially) go against Roboute's rule, but then quickly come to accept it as a means to an end. Then, I think he would shake up the chapter and end the secrets, to the detriment of Azrael's leadership and the structure/purpose of the chapter as a whole, quickly coming to embrace their effectiveness in war as heirs to his tactics and strategies for battle, but also to purge the secrets and the shame of the chapter.

[Skywrath]

That parallel would mean Azrael is:

 

1) Making amends with a faction that his brothers despise, but he himself had no real knowledge of them even existing beyond one battle against said faction (a battle which, in the case of the Lion, ended with him "dead"). This, I feel, has no real parallel.

 

Except for the fact that when I wrote the above, I had the Lion in mind. Sorry for the confusion.  

 

2) Taking this faction his chapter hates, into the fold, as allies. This could be a parallel. Azrael has begrudgingly allowed the Primaris into the Chapter's circles to an extent.

 

3) Getting rid of the Chapter's secrets. I do not think this has a real parallel either. Azrael is keeping MORE secrets, if anything else.

 

He is, but can you see how the above two points can easily resolve the secrets the Dark Angels keep at the current time? Fallen are allies now, hence no secrets to be kept, especially that the imperium knows nothing about them.

 

I think that, if anything, the return of the Lion would be a catastrophic event. The cause for more than one schism of the Imperium, and the Chapter. I think he would (initially) go against Roboute's rule, but then quickly come to accept it as a means to an end. Then, I think he would shake up the chapter and end the secrets, to the detriment of Azrael's leadership and the structure/purpose of the chapter as a whole, quickly coming to embrace their effectiveness in war as heirs to his tactics and strategies for battle, but also to purge the secrets and the shame of the chapter.

 

I would pay money to see that. While that train of thought is obvious, it would be nice to see another primarch showing the finger to Bobby G. The example where Roboute told Azrael he is welcome to use the Deathwing/Ravenwing as codex-approved divisions:  I'm pretty sure Azrael would still use them anyway, whether Roboute likes it or not. I like it how the Dark Angels do their own thing.

 

In blue.

[Berzul]

No, yeah, you did write it form the Lion's point of view, but then stated that we could replace the Lion with Azrael, and see the parallel. My point is that, I don't see the parallel in 2/3 of the train of thought. Not to say the Lion would act differently to what you describe. I just don't see the parallel.

 

All in all, I would expect:

 

1) Legacy Marines to be around for a good while. At least a couple of years more, if not longer.

2) But, that they WILL be phased out, because in lore it makes no sense for them to last forever. If they die, they die, and their replacements will be Primaris Marines.

3) So, in the end, Azrael will have to include the Primaris into every aspect of the chapter, more and more. To the point that we will pass from refusal, to induction, to assimilation, to replacement. We are already at stage 3, with Primaris being in the Inner Circle, and in the first two companies. Stage 4 will come, sooner or later.

 

In fact, maybe that will be the plot of the Lion's return. Maybe he will wake up, see what the chapter has become, renounce the old marines, the first born, and then decide to remake his chapter form the Primaris marines.

[Skywrath]

No, yeah, you did write it form the Lion's point of view, but then stated that we could replace the Lion with Azrael, and see the parallel. My point is that, I don't see the parallel in 2/3 of the train of thought. Not to say the Lion would act differently to what you describe. I just don't see the parallel.

 

Replace the Lion with Azrael on 2/3 points, just not that one. Plus the parallels were more of a future scenario kind of thing, not something that has happened. Although I did reinforce those future parallels with examples from the past to make it easier for people to see the connections.

 

All in all, I would expect:

 

1) Legacy Marines to be around for a good while. At least a couple of years more, if not longer.

 

With Fabius Bile's return, I wonder whether there will be advancements in the crossing of the rubicon primaris as a response to imminent Primaris Chaos Marines. Plus there is that lurking story line where Abbadon rips out Epimetheus gene-seed and hands it to said Fabius Bile. But of an unrelated note, I would love to see the GK get the primaris treatment, or as Valrak said, completely corrupted space marines implanted with the emperor's gene-seed that has been tainted by chaos. ++ BLAM BLAM HERESY ++ (Oh boy, the interrogators of the Rock are going to have a field day with me, once they read this)

 

2) But, that they WILL be phased out, because in lore it makes no sense for them to last forever. If they die, they die, and their replacements will be Primaris Marines.

 

Pretty obviously yes, think it was stated before in the myriad Dark Imperium books. I do wonder what the next evolution will be from the primaris marines - actual primarchs? Or another psychic evolution, like the psychic awakening. The possibilities are endless.

 

3) So, in the end, Azrael will have to include the Primaris into every aspect of the chapter, more and more. To the point that we will pass from refusal, to induction, to assimilation, to replacement. We are already at stage 3, with Primaris being in the Inner Circle, and in the first two companies. Stage 4 will come, sooner or later.

 

Very likely. However that implies by extension that Azrael will have to go through the rubicon at one point or another. Then I suspect the attitude of the firstborn DA will be more friendlier to the new Primaris Marines. I wonder if that is the realization Azrael needs before the Lion is awoken. With Luther escaping, Marbas on the loose and the fallen amassing an army, this seems even more likelier.

 

In fact, maybe that will be the plot of the Lion's return. Maybe he will wake up, see what the chapter has become, renounce the old marines, the first born, and then decide to remake his chapter form the Primaris marines.

 

I don't see that last point happening, frankly. Most likely scenario (yet another one) is that the DA gets branded as traitors, the primarch awakes just in time, smooths things over, then primaris take over as a condition. (Because it said primaris have a stronger connection to Roboute and the Mechanicus, yet along being seen as spies). Admittedly unlikely, however, I can see the first two instances happening - the DA get branded as traitor and as a response the Lion awakens. Then afterwards, it's a blank, unfortunately.

 

In blue again. Apologies, it appears that I am derailing this conversation, perhaps we should take this to PM's, Berzul?

Edited March 23, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Bryan Blaire]

Chapters are still making the standard Adeptus Astartes form Marine right alongside the Primaris form. Nothing ATM says the Primaris have to be the only thing remaining in the Marine arsenal - they can fight alongside standard Marines for decades to come - their end, if one comes, will be completely in the hands of GW writing it so.

[Phoebus]

To re-address the OP, I think it would be a case of the opposite, and that the Black Library and Games Workshop teams missed an opportunity to tackle an old bit of lore.

 

In the original background material, the seeds for Luther’s betrayal were sewn by the Order recognizing the Lion as Supreme Grand Master, but what really did the trick was that he wasn’t able to be transformed into a proper Space Marine. It would have been interesting to explore the reaction of the Inner Circle had to the Primaris within that lens: an instinctive negativity toward warriors who are bigger, stronger, faster, able to take more damage, etc., with the individuals most privy to the Legion’s secret history realizing they were in danger of repeating Luther’s errors... but unable to reveal the lessons of the past.

 

Alternately, it would have been interesting to juxtapose the rest of the Adeptus Astartes going through a more measured, gradual transition period (where Primaris take over as part of the normal attrition process), but the senior officers of the Unforgiven are almost suicidally subjecting themselves to the rites of the Rubicon Primaris. To outsiders, this is hubris of the worst sort, but to the Inner Circle it’s a necessary sacrifice to ensure the sins of the past are not repeated.

[Sandalphon]

"We're gonna need a bigger bike!"