The other "Great Warriors"

[SkimaskMohawk]

@bluntblade let's agree to disagree on the exact nature of karn's reputation.

 

@rohr you need to put sevatar on that list with abbadon and sigismund.

[Marshal Rohr]

@bluntblade let's agree to disagree on the exact nature of karn's reputation.

 

@rohr you need to put sevatar on that list with abbadon and sigismund.

Whoops, good catch. Thank you.

[b1soul]

Khârn and Abaddon are guys who shine at killing as many guys as quickly as possible on the battlefield as opposed to besting a single opponent in the dueling circle

[bluntblade]

That's also a little murky, as Sigismund and Sevatar also wreck anyone in their path on the battlefield. It's just that they, for different reasons, are more motivated in the duelling ring.

[b1soul]

I recall that in Templar, Rann comments that Sigismund doesn't fight quite as impressively on the battlefield

 

He's still much better than average SM of course (as is Sevatar), but the way ADB describes Abaddon and Khârn has me thinking that the heaving press of the battlefield is where both excel their rivals by a slight margin, which is usually how it is when comparing the best of the best

[Marshal Rohr]

I mean, Sanguinius, a super human Primarch total badass called Sigismund Death's Champion. 

[Indefragable]

IX Legion = Khitas Frome

 

....as another possible one to put up there.

[bluntblade]

I recall that in Templar, Rann comments that Sigismund doesn't fight quite as impressively on the battlefield

 

He's still much better than average SM of course (as is Sevatar), but the way ADB describes Abaddon and Khârn has me thinking that the heaving press of the battlefield is where both excel their rivals by a slight margin, which is usually how it is when comparing the best of the best

Having read that short many times, he doesn't say that, but Sigismund gets exposed once and Rann tells him he's getting sloppy. Though what that's telling us is simply that Sigismund is fallible.

Edited March 23, 2020 by bluntblade

[StrangerOrders]

 

The fact that no one has mention Cyrius, Abdemon or Akurduana on this list offends my soul

 

Holguin was pretty deadly as well iirc.

I should stress that I'm just going for the very select few. Got a short story in the works that does the "referencing the Great Warriors" thing and wanted some outside-the-box examples. So was thinking Lamiad or Orfeo for the Ultramarines, that sort of thing.

 

Akurduana is literally considered the finest swordsman that the Legion ever produced though. As well as Fulgrim's firstborn. He is only not mentioned more because he died in a suicide attack early in the Crusade (Ferrus admits to Fulgrim he screwed up there when he apologizes for the former's death). The guy was basically supernaturally skilled even by Astartes standards.

 

And Lucius only beat Cyrius because Slaanesh literally cheated the fight. He is literally seen as the finest student of Akurduana.

[Llagos_Tyrant]

My list...

 

IVth - Probably Forrix

 

 

I can't speak for the other legions but at least from what I've read Forrix is much more of a strategist/general and logistician than a skilled fighter. Even Kroeger who is supposed to be a brutal fighter, wouldn't hold a candle to the other names on this list - nevermind that he died in a shameful way by comparison to the others.

 

I can't think of any IVth legion soldier who is noted as being skilled on the same level as some of the others being discussed. The only one who springs to mind as being particularly skilled is the Iron Warrior champion from Black Legion serving the Death Guard warlord. I don't have the book on hand right now to check the name of the Iron Warrior. But even he had no reputation for his skill, if memory serves.

 

This probably goes along with the Iron Warrior style of warfare, and how they were sidelined by other Legions. It's hard to build a reputation for skill at arms when few even acknowledge your Legion's presence at a battle, and at your own battles everything is blown up from a distance, through expenditure of ammunition, or on a field of unnamed, unremembered corpses in mud-slick trenches.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Llagos_Tyrant

[Astartes Consul]

It also fits nicely into the IV Legions doctrine/lore that, even if they did produce a superlative swordsman, he'd probably be censured for undue heroics and attempts at personal glory and end up demoted to a line trooper and killed in some pointless meat grinder.

[Raktra]

Autek Mor for the Xth? If not for swordsmanship then for raw power at least. Like The Mountain. Edited March 26, 2020 by Raktra

[StrangerOrders]

Autek Mor for the Xth? If not for swordsmanship then for raw power at least. Like The Mountain.

Tbf, the Mountain in the books at least gets at least half his deadliness from being far faster and more adept than anyone that size should be able to be. That's sort of what trips up alot of his opponents. Besides that he is actually a pretty good tactical thinker in battle (there is a good reason why he is given vanguard command) and the show downplays how adept he is at both that and playing duels when his temper doesn't get the better of him).

 

That he uses the offset of his strength to wear a ridiculous amount of armor in a setting where most people can't afford jack certainly helps. Along with his wealthy patron ensuring he gets the best.

 

He is honestly like a cross between Autek Mor, Polux and Eidolon tbh in terms of combat. Having the benefits of strength, intelligence and patronage. 

 

Granted, can't think of an Astartes that has the same sort of brute sadism. Astartes sadism tends to be either far more direct or infinitely more convoluted, it rarely falls into the sort of thug brutality he has.

[bluntblade]

Autek Mor for the Xth? If not for swordsmanship then for raw power at least. Like The Mountain.

Of the ones we've seen fight, Henricos seems more fitting - but his prowess seems an unknown quantity given Little Horus' surprise.

[b1soul]

@ Rohr

"I mean, Sanguinius, a super human Primarch total badass called Sigismund Death's Champion."

 

Right, none of what I said would contradict that.

 

@ bluntblade

Coulda sworn I read a line somewhere saying or implying to the effect that Sigismund is the consummate 1v1 champion-slayer or duelist extraordinaire, but not quite as incredible at carving up a bunch of enemy warriors on the field. I'm probably mixing stuff up in my head.

 

Some quotes at what Abaddon is good at:

 

Ezekyle is a barbarian. A slayer. In battle he is a warrior without peer, but his strength is in the force of his presence, the relentless viciousness of his assault. To meet him on the battlefield is to know, without doubt, that your life will end if you stand and face him. He does not fight, he merely kills. That is not to say he is unskilled. His talents are supreme, his focus inhuman, his speed supernatural. He is a force of murderous nature, his weapons never still, his eyes ever aware, alert to every shift and tension of muscle in his foe.

 

In ages past he would have been called a battle-king, one of those ancient Bronze Epoch monarchs that fought in the front lines and inspired his men in the chaos of the shield wall, rather than a ruler directing a war from afar, or only fighting in tediously honourable single combat. Outside of battle’s heat, no matter how he trains, he lacks the depths of brutality and viciousness that make him so formidable in true war.

 

He is perfectly capable of duelling with a sword in training bouts, but it has never been his gift. Any one of the Ezekarion could, at their best, match him blade on blade. Telemachon and Vortigern could defeat him with relative ease.

*proceeds to slay [an older] Sigismund in a duel*

 

So in my view, I think this is why if Sigismund met Abaddon on the battlefield at the Siege, it would be an incredibly close affair, perhaps even a coin-toss. Abaddon could perhaps chew through enemy grunts even faster than Sigismund, based on his bruising style...but Sigismund has that one-on-one edge.

 

Abaddon saw the first blow come, ducked under it and lashed his blade into the base of the sword where it melded with the arm. Blood scattered, blackening to ash as it fell. The sword screamed, and twisted to strike like a snake, but Abaddon was already pivoting to meet the cut of its twin as it lashed towards his head. Others that had fought him would have said that he was fast, beyond even the speed common to one of his transhuman breed. That missed the real truth, though. There were others amongst the great warriors who were faster: Jubal Khan, Sigismund, Lucius, Sevatar – even the fool Loken. It was not that Abaddon was fast; it was that he did not think of speed, of parry and riposte, of attack and defence. Living or dying did not matter. Bloodshed did not matter. His life did not matter. All that mattered was victory. That made him more than fast, more than skilled. It made him death.

 

Frankly, I think the above could also be applied to Sigismund, who is described as using offence as defence and is probably just as committed to victory.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Abbadon barely beat sigismund when he was a thousand years old and notably "slowed down" by age.

[Gorgoff]

The difference between his fluff and his rules are painful.

[bluntblade]

b1soul, I think the only real difference is whether they still commit when the situation isn't life or death. When Abaddon duels Sigismund it is that, and Sigismund knows he will lose. He simply does his very best to take Abaddon with him and almost succeeds. Edited March 27, 2020 by bluntblade

[Bung]

The difference between his fluff and his rules are painful.

Well someone worked really really hard so he could get his nickname Failbaddon.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Well, Sigismund himself has some thoughts on the matter, in First Wall.

 

"As legionaries there were none among the traitors that could match him. The Legions’ greatest had always been his inferiors. Corswain of the Dark Angels. Jubal of the White Scars. Khârn of the World Eaters. Sevatar of the Night Lords. Lucius of the Emperor’s Children. Abaddon of the Luna Wolves."

[SkimaskMohawk]

First wall shouldn't be used as reference material except to show how Thorpe ruins characters.

 

Other than the fact that he shouldn't even think of lucius, his fight with sevatar lasted 30 hours and only ended because sev was bored. Thinking of sevatar as an "inferior" doesn't really mesh well with him laughing at his defeat due to headbutt.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

First wall shouldn't be used as reference material except to show how Thorpe ruins characters.

Your dislike of it doesn't render it non-canon.

[depthcharge12]

Well, Sigismund himself has some thoughts on the matter, in First Wall.

 

"As legionaries there were none among the traitors that could match him. The Legions’ greatest had always been his inferiors. Corswain of the Dark Angels. Jubal of the White Scars. Khârn of the World Eaters. Sevatar of the Night Lords. Lucius of the Emperor’s Children. Abaddon of the Luna Wolves."

Doesn’t Lucius think he’s the best? I mean in all honesty - rain, snow, or shine, you don’t get an exception. Abaddon kills Siggy, so that renders his statement moot lol. Lucius thought he was the best and then got punked repeatedly.

 

Doesn’t Khârn beat up Siggy in a recent book before getting backhanded by Dorn?

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

Well, Sigismund himself has some thoughts on the matter, in First Wall.

 

"As legionaries there were none among the traitors that could match him. The Legions’ greatest had always been his inferiors. Corswain of the Dark Angels. Jubal of the White Scars. Khârn of the World Eaters. Sevatar of the Night Lords. Lucius of the Emperor’s Children. Abaddon of the Luna Wolves."

Doesn’t Lucius think he’s the best? I mean in all honesty - rain, snow, or shine, you don’t get an exception. Abaddon kills Siggy, so that renders his statement moot lol. Lucius thought he was the best and then got punked repeatedly.

 

Doesn’t Khârn beat up Siggy in a recent book before getting backhanded by Dorn?

 

Yes, in that very book. And it's made a point of how Khârn is super-charged by Khorne. He does stuff a Harlequin would approve of, like flipping over a line of Breachers and beheading two of them in the process.

[bluntblade]

Oof. I always thought Sigismund was well aware of his own mortality, and elsewhere he's shown seeming to acknowledge his counterparts as pretty much equals.