What CSM need

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I've spent enough time on this forum to know these threads typically turn into wish listing, but I was having a think today and I thought it'd be worth opening Pandora's box again

 

 

I know it's blatantly obvious the CSM is once again in that spot of being far overshadowed by the loyalist and having rules that don't reflect their representation in the fluff. On those notes (and out of sheer curiosity) I wonder what the difference in special rules volume there is between loyalist and CSM at this point.. 

Back on topic, CSM is waiting on an update. Of course we'll see an update before long (hopefully in 8.5e or 9e). In that update I'm really hoping CSM receive a complete overhaul. I don't really think Chaos Space Marines need a Primaris/Astartes 2.0, as some on here may want out of spite. Spikey Marines are astartes and I don't think I want them to be at the 2.0 because it doesn't really make sense from a fluff perspective. Right now the only advantage CSM has that loyalist don't is being able to take 20 man squads.. but when the unit still isn't that great then all you're left with is a giant terrible unit. IMO, CSM needs some new flavor and these are the areas I think could make a huge difference:

Psychic phase: As far as I'm concerned, the psychic powers that CSM has access to a pretty much on par with what the loyalist have access to, for the most part. That doesn't really sit well with me. Chaos Space Marines have been marked by the influence of Chaos since the days of the Horus Heresy and I think that should really stand out in the psychic phase. GW could design CSM in a way that one of the draws to them is they have devastating access to the powers of the warp and are enhanced by chaos in that area. Now, I know you long time CSM are going to dislike this part and trust me, I understand why... A long with that added power should come added *risk.* I know how much hatred there is towards the fact that GW keeps making Chaos so random. I have only been collecting and playing Chaos since the end of 7th, but from my buddies that I gamed with in 6th I understand the randomness of Chaos is frustrating, particularly in competitive environments where consistency is so much better than powerful but swingy. CSM could be given access to psychic powers that loyalist possess no equivalent to or psyker rules which demonstrates those characters have the full might of Chaos available when they utilize the warp. I haven't put too much thought into specifically what kind of powers these would be, but I'm sure there are some here who are willing to discuss.

Chaos Astartes overhaul: This is another area I'd like to see a CSM have a completely different approach than what GW has been doing with them. Firstly, (and I realized this has been brought up multiple times in this forum) marks of Chaos need to be made great again. Benefits to individual units need to happen after they've been dedicated to certain gods similar to the way they were done in previous editions but I think they could become more devastating. My reasoning behind this is loyalist have their doctrines.. which are something I just don't think Chaos needs at all.. we do have marks though and those could and should play important roles in how CSM plays on the tabletop. I also think Chaos astartes need access to a lot of buffs from characters, from psychic powers, and from strats. I like the idea that Chaos Marines have gotten so cheap point wise for a basic unit.. I don't have a problem with them being so basic if they can be *transformed* in the game to being a fierce asset. Maybe give them the ability to be possessed light through strats and psychic powers. Space Wolves used to have Lone Wolves as an option in the codex.. now the last surviving model in a unit can be upgraded to a Lone Wolf using CP and becomes a boss for the rest of the game. Something like that (albeit fairly situational) could add some flexibility to a unit if they can be transformed to possessed level of beastyness for a turn.. the game.. what have you. What's nice about the option is your opponent doesn't know which unit you are going to supercharge which means that unit wont necessarily be target priority from T1 on like possessed blobs can be..  I think you guys see overall where I'm going with these ideas and I'm interested to see you own ideas for Chaos Marines.

 

New units: At this point, the loyalist are blowing us away in the toy (read elite and HS) departments. I think eventually we'll see a mutilator kit to match the oblit kit.. and while the venomcrawler is nice.. I still think we need some more units to help with things we're lacking. A couple more options in the long range shooting category would be nice. Most of the other units we have need complete re-working (hell turkey, cough). I think a plastic dreadclaw would be huge but.. 

Thoughts gents?

[Doom Herald]

This is a topic that gets brought up a lot. At my local game store it's a joke that people say CSM are just SM with worse rules. The thing is though, I always have the easiest time against space marines compared to other armies. I play Night Lords, so it might be different for other Legions/Warbands. There are a few key things that I think need to be addressed though.

 

1) Re-roll all failed hits aura. CSM just dont have it. Something like a DP or a strategem upgrade would be nice. Alternatively, a strategem offering unique fluffy buff auras to certain warbands or legions characters would be great.

 

2) We should have a build your own warband mechanic.

 

3) Atleast one flavorful psychic power based on Legion.

 

4) Our Apostles should be better than chaplains, since they are actual priests praying to actual gods, not the equivalent of an Astartes commissars giving a rousing speech. This should be a big area where the two branches of Astartes are distinguished.

 

5) We need terminator armor and Jump pack options for Apostles and Champions. The loyalists can deepstrike their equivalents.

 

6) We need chaos marks to do something other than just allowing synergies. Some small buff would make up for not having doctrines and still make the two groups different.

 

I'm all for distinguishing the two groups, but baselines should be equivalent. I feel like I can play Night Lords well enough and that strategems make them decently fluffy, but I also feel like I shouldn't have to lean so heavily on command points to achieve that. Fluffy and some minor practical mechanic tweaks are called for, but I dont think we need a big overhaul.

[dice4thedicegod]

I definitely think that they should have left chaplains as they were while changing up the dark apostles

[Doom Herald]

I definitely think that they should have left chaplains as they were while changing up the dark apostles

I thought that's what they were going for when they changed Apostles. While I had mixed feelings on the mechanics change, I thought it was a big win for fluff, until they did the same with Chaplains.

[Irate Khornate]

1. Marks of chaos should do more than just give access to certain stratagems.

 

2. Volkite weaponry.

 

3. Daemon engines should be BS/WS 3+ without an aura or Forgeworld.

 

4. Daemon Princes should have a 4++

 

5. Legion tactics should apply to all units.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Irate Khornate

[Zuvassin]

I'd be happy if they added some form of "Post-Heresy Equipment" rule that let CSM take loyalist vehicles and equipment (like jump packs on chars), either straight-up or for a premium (ie an additional 50% of the points cost like the 2nd ed CSM codex had).

 

Rules-wise, I don't think much will change until/if/when GW finally starts supporting Chaos with the legion-specific codexes like the loyalists get. 

[BrainFireBob]

1) Termie armor marks

2) Drop pods

3) More daemon engines

4) Chaos special issue wargear- like Chaos armor

5) Movement upgrades (bikes, jump packs. Termie armor) for all HQs.

[dice4thedicegod]

Oh yeah, I would love to be able to give exalted champions and dark apostles jump packs! Masters of execution too.

Having said that... how would dark apostles fly with their two little helpers?

[Doom Herald]

Oh yeah, I would love to be able to give exalted champions and dark apostles jump packs! Masters of execution too.

Having said that... how would dark apostles fly with their two little helpers?

They are optional, and theres a price to be paid for flykng.

[Lucerne]

multiwound Chosen, unique wargear (ranged and melee, the chaincannon is a good start) for Chosen at the very least.

[Iron Skull Mask]

I'd be really happy about small changes like 40 man cultist blobs with legion traits or changing the aura rules of crowns and deredeos to within 6" instead of wholly within. That would be huge! Then bringing back obliterator real weapon choices (not happening soon with the new stratagems from psychic awakening) and 10 man havoc squads (not happening after the new kit and change in base size) would be nice.

Other nice things have been emntioned, but thinking about how the game played really nicely not so long ago, I feel like the CSM rules are not the real problem. The real problem imo is how the rules of other armies especially imperium have developed. And since they just can't put the djinn back into the bottle quickly, I'd say it's time for an edtition 8.5 or 9 in the not too distant future. I feel like the game is in a similar state currently as it was at the end of 7th edition.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

There's some things they need simply to be on par with loyalists:

 

1. Fixed, 2 part chapter traits that also effect vehicles and aren't bloody useless (word bearers)
2. A general boost of equivalent strength to Doctrines
3. Another boost to reward mono-faction armies (equivalent to super doctrines)

 

Number 2 is probably most easily solved by Marks of some sort. CSM should get a bigger buff than doctrines, but its less flexibile. However, flexibility isn't always a good thing. The loyalist doctrines aren't really flexibile so much as they are exclusive. As we saw before they were forced to cycle through them, it was generally best to build your list around sitting around in only 1 doctrine. So CSM should have a downside as well. Which works perfectly for marks, because they introduce exclusivity.

 

On top of this, Chaos forces in general should have another layer where they can get bonuses for being not just mono-legion, but also mono-God. There should effectively be a second super doctrine style bonus if your army is all the same God, because you sacrifice so much for that. So you could have a pure legion, pure God list with 2 bonuses, or you could have a souped list that is nevertheless pure God and only 1 bonus.

 

I won't go into the details of how they could implement marks or what they could do, as that's just wishlisting. Instead, let's take note that there's still a lot of things that Chaos needs that aren't actually Chaos specific problems, they are still problems for all Marines that need fixing.

 

Most Marine Elite and Fast infantry isn't good. Terminators need a slight improvement in ALL marine factions. So do Veterans/Chosen. So do Assault Marines/Raptors, Bikers, etc. The only non-primaris marine units working decently are Devastators/Havocs, but even they don't quite feel marine-ish enough. The heart of this problem is that Str4 Ap 0 is crap, and 3+ isn't what it used to be. All the new special rules have certainly helped, but at the end of the day, basic marines are still squishy and fairly ineffective. This isn't too bad on the troops because they have other uses, but its killed Elites and Fast Attack marines.

 

This problem exists because 8th ed system changes really gutted the capabilities of the basic marine statline. Almost everything that changed in 8th was bad for marines.

 

1. AP changes hurt lower armor saves more proportionally
2. Bolters going to AP 0 means marines lost a lot of their basic anti-infantry firepower (lots of other factions with str4ap5 weapons in previous editions got a point of ap or a special rule.
3. Transport changes ruined marine mechanized lists
4. Meltas becoming a shadow of what they were ruined marine anti-tank
5. Loss of sweeping advance hurt units with low offensive output but high durability most. You used to be able to get a sweep even if you didn't have a ton of attacks as long as you didn't get hurt much yourself, but no longer
6. Loss of locking in melee also hurts low offense - high defense style melee units that expected to grind a unit down over a couple turns
7. Plasma becoming so much stronger in 8th hurt marines more than most. Previously, plasma was anti heavy infantry and light vehicles. Now it also kills heavy vehicles, so it just get spammed. So more anti-heavy infantry firepower is on the board than before.
8. Vehicle and instant death changes devalued the powerfist. Every marine sergeant in an army used to be capable of killing anything on the board in melee (and had a nice protective shield of bolter mooks), now that's gone.
9. I'm sure I could think of more

 

So yeah, 8th gutted basic marines, and all the layers of special rules that loyalists got helped, but elite marines still need something more. Either ways to take them as troops, or better, bring back veteran skills or something. Making them cheaper isn't a good solution though.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Drudge Dreadnought

[MegaVolt87]

The new FW re-work will likely be 9th ed compatible, which will make or break our faction. We don't really have an inside person in the studio who will draft us up OP/creative/effective rules for a 9th ed dex, I would really like to be proven wrong here though. Its depressing seeing all these good ideas in threads like this GW will likely never do. Edited March 23, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Trevak Dal]

A drop pod would be nice. Not a chaos drop pod that costs more and eats your guys, but a legit drop pod.

[MegaVolt87]

A drop pod would be nice. Not a chaos drop pod that costs more and eats your guys, but a legit drop pod.

Last I checked, our spartan was a bit cheaper than the loyalist one because ours can eat our dudes. Or GW could just not point dedicated transports stupid high like the rhino. 50pts stock profile just like the old days.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

A drop pod would be nice. Not a chaos drop pod that costs more and eats your guys, but a legit drop pod.

Last I checked, our spartan was a bit cheaper than the loyalist one because ours can eat our dudes. Or GW could just not point dedicated transports stupid high like the rhino. 50pts stock profile just like the old days.

 

 

It used to be 35pts :D Although it probably has too much firepower for that now.

 

As for drop pods, chaos and loyalists should both have them, and for cheaper than now. But loyalists ought to have a bunch of strats to improve them to represent them having newer equipment and generally better drop pod deployment capabilities.

[techsoldaten]

Not fond of wishlists myself, going to approach the question a different way.

 

NuMarines, Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights, and Orks all have hard-counter options for fighting CSM. The best lists now forgo a focus on mid-range firepower and hard-hitting melee to instead emphasize psychic phase dominance, heavy use of buffs to avoid shots, HQs as main offensive unit, and soup with Daemons. Usually, the best lists are now low-model count armies, Cultists and CSMs don't seem to have much of a place.

 

Any improvements have to be relative to those hard counters. Disintegration Cannons, 30" AP-1 Bolters with Doctrines, 72" range multishot weapons, and the ability to field more troops than can be wounded in 5 rounds of combat are the main items that make us weak.

 

A way to address these concerns, without a complete overhaul.

 

- Make all psychic powers area of effect. Your Sorcerer can now buff a firebase or give a column extra movement. This would address issues with range on Imperial and Dark Eldar units, they can't just target the unit that's being buffed and call it a game. It would screw with their target priority and that's sorely needed for an army that's supposed to fight mid-range.

 

- Give Chosen an extra wound. Right now, you take Chosen because of weapon selection (almost like Havocs.) But they're no more resilient than CSMs, we don't have a non-terminator heavy infantry threat. This would give them a little more staying power and encourage opponents to target them with multi-wound weapons, taking the heat off other units (Helbrutes, Contemptors, etc)

 

- Revise Legion Traits to Apply to Vehicles. Predators and Land Raiders really suffer in comparison to their Imperial counterparts. They cost about the same without getting the same benefits and they are completely outclassed by PEQ tanks. At least bring them up to par by allowing them to do stuff specific to the Legion.

 

- Vehicles fire Heavy Weapons without Penalty. Building on the previous point, a simple way to close the gap in efficiency with PEQ and Eldar tanks is to allow our tanks to fire on the run. This benefit would give players a reason to take them instead of Havocs, who can already do that.

 

- Bring Back Biker Lords and give other HQs more Mobility - The HQs that appear in the best lists are either high-mobility or deep strikers. We could get a lot of benefits from other HQs if there was a way to get them into the fight.

 

You see where I'm going with this. Better mobility is the answer to better range, better buffs is the answer to less efficiency, better tactics is the answer to better guns. The Codex doesn't necessarily need a complete overhaul, it needs more fine tuning to adapt to the meta.

 

 

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah, if our vehicles don’t get doctrines or chapter tactics then they should get a discount relative to the loyalists.

 

(Give me a reason to take landraiders!!!)

[Aarik]

The first thing to do is give CSM two wounds base.  Not only would this wound increase give them a much needed bump on the table top, it would fit the fluff of most CSM being ancient warriors who fought in the Heresy (or at least have lived in the Eye of Terror for millennia) who look down on what are now old-marines as thin-blooded weaklings, heavily diluted from the powerful stock who came before them.

 

This would also have the effect of bumping possessed and terminators to 3W.

 

Ultimately, CSM need to "feel like marines" are much as Primaris do now.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The first thing to do is give CSM two wounds base.  Not only would this wound increase give them a much needed bump on the table top, it would fit the fluff of most CSM being ancient warriors who fought in the Heresy (or at least have lived in the Eye of Terror for millennia) who look down on what are now old-marines as thin-blooded weaklings, heavily diluted from the powerful stock who came before them.

 

This would also have the effect of bumping possessed and terminators to 3W.

 

Ultimately, CSM need to "feel like marines" are much as Primaris do now.

 

This would break the internal balance of marines unless loyalist old marines got it too. (Which maybe they should. +1 W on all terminators in the game would be a good fix for them.) Just sticking it on CSM would be a bandaid fix. Do we really want the difference between a tac and a csm to be that one has -1 ap some of the time and good traits, and the other has 2 wounds? I think there's better ways to fix them.

 

CSM certainly need to get more durable, but so do all marines. I think a better fix would be to restore the old balance of small arms vs power armor. Give all marines a rule that they ignore ap -1 and -2 weapons. And give bolters and marine's flamers and other weapons back the ability to ignore 5+ and 6+. And then fix chaos traits, etc.

 

Or you could make it so that Str 4 and lower weapons are -1 to wound vs marines, which would also increase their durability against small arms. There's lots of ways to make them more durable other than just wounds.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Drudge Dreadnought

[Aarik]

 

The first thing to do is give CSM two wounds base.  Not only would this wound increase give them a much needed bump on the table top, it would fit the fluff of most CSM being ancient warriors who fought in the Heresy (or at least have lived in the Eye of Terror for millennia) who look down on what are now old-marines as thin-blooded weaklings, heavily diluted from the powerful stock who came before them.

 

This would also have the effect of bumping possessed and terminators to 3W.

 

Ultimately, CSM need to "feel like marines" are much as Primaris do now.

 

This would break the internal balance of marines unless loyalist old marines got it too. (Which maybe they should. +1 W on all terminators in the game would be a good fix for them.) Just sticking it on CSM would be a bandaid fix. Do we really want the difference between a tac and a csm to be that one has -1 ap some of the time and good traits, and the other has 2 wounds? I think there's better ways to fix them.

 

I'd be perfectly happy to give old marines (and all other marines, DG, TS, GK, etc.) +1 W too -- but i don't see that happening, unfortunately.  And given that old marines are on the way out, I don't think that CSM should be shackled to them.

 

Given the pretty universal acclaim that Primaris have now for playing "like marines," how would you propose fixing CSM instead to give them the same "oomph" and usefulness on the tabletop?

 

IMO, part of the point of CSM is that they are a dark mirror of SM (of which Primaris are now the standard bearers).  There shouldn't be a big difference between the profiles of their bog standard troops.  It is deeply unsatisfying that a 10,000 year old veteran who fought with the Primarchs at the Siege of Terra has been living in literal hell for millennia is half as hardy and powerful as the greenest Primaris marine.

[Lucerne]

Honestly there desperately needs to be a 2 wound troop choice that's "nastier CSM that aren't full on warpy", ie: Not-Quite-Chosen. The current CSM can work as the economy option to represent the turncoats and newest Marines on the pecking order.

 

So you have

a)cultists

b)cheap CSM

c)pricier CSM Not-Quite-Chosen/"Chaotic Veterans" with some wargear variants.

 

Also a plastic Dreadclaw or not-dreadclaw would be very nice- CSM need vehicles that aren't just boring versions of the 40k loyalists or dinobots.

 

And that's without getting into faction issues like AL where the thematic way to play them is to just run Raven Guard instead for the sweet sweet Headhunters Infiltrators and Exodus Eliminators.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Lucerne

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Honestly there desperately needs to be a 2 wound troop choice that's "nastier CSM that aren't full on warpy", ie: Not-Quite-Chosen. The current CSM can work as the economy option to represent the turncoats and newest Marines on the pecking order.

 

So you have

a)cultists

b)cheap CSM

c)pricier CSM Not-Quite-Chosen/"Chaotic Veterans" with some wargear variants.

 

Also a plastic Dreadclaw or not-dreadclaw would be very nice- CSM need vehicles that aren't just boring versions of the 40k loyalists or dinobots.

 

And that's without getting into faction issues like AL where the thematic way to play them is to just run Raven Guard instead for the sweet sweet Headhunters Infiltrators and Exodus Eliminators.

 

A unit like that would be good, but still leaves vanilla CSM infantry out in the cold. Would we also make a 2w unit to replace raptors? And a heavy version to replace havocs? And an elite version to replace Chosen? At that point, why not just give the regular version 2W instead of making new units?

 

There should certainly be a distinction between recent renegades/newly created CSM and proper Traitor Legionaries. We have that for some legions via the Cult Marines. It would be nice to get an elite statline to represent old(er) marines for the Undivided Legion that are elites normally, but Troops for them.

[Lucerne]

 

Honestly there desperately needs to be a 2 wound troop choice that's "nastier CSM that aren't full on warpy", ie: Not-Quite-Chosen. The current CSM can work as the economy option to represent the turncoats and newest Marines on the pecking order.

 

So you have

a)cultists

b)cheap CSM

c)pricier CSM Not-Quite-Chosen/"Chaotic Veterans" with some wargear variants.

 

Also a plastic Dreadclaw or not-dreadclaw would be very nice- CSM need vehicles that aren't just boring versions of the 40k loyalists or dinobots.

 

And that's without getting into faction issues like AL where the thematic way to play them is to just run Raven Guard instead for the sweet sweet Headhunters Infiltrators and Exodus Eliminators.

 

A unit like that would be good, but still leaves vanilla CSM infantry out in the cold. Would we also make a 2w unit to replace raptors? And a heavy version to replace havocs? And an elite version to replace Chosen? At that point, why not just give the regular version 2W instead of making new units?

 

There should certainly be a distinction between recent renegades/newly created CSM and proper Traitor Legionaries. We have that for some legions via the Cult Marines. It would be nice to get an elite statline to represent old(er) marines for the Undivided Legion that are elites normally, but Troops for them.

 

Vanilla CSM infantry should be kept for those who actually like them for some inexplicable reason, Raptors and Havocs are trapped because of models, and Chosen should also be buffed since the usual complaint is that they go splat despite all those nice toys.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Lucerne

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

 

Honestly there desperately needs to be a 2 wound troop choice that's "nastier CSM that aren't full on warpy", ie: Not-Quite-Chosen. The current CSM can work as the economy option to represent the turncoats and newest Marines on the pecking order.

 

So you have

a)cultists

b)cheap CSM

c)pricier CSM Not-Quite-Chosen/"Chaotic Veterans" with some wargear variants.

 

Also a plastic Dreadclaw or not-dreadclaw would be very nice- CSM need vehicles that aren't just boring versions of the 40k loyalists or dinobots.

 

And that's without getting into faction issues like AL where the thematic way to play them is to just run Raven Guard instead for the sweet sweet Headhunters Infiltrators and Exodus Eliminators.

 

A unit like that would be good, but still leaves vanilla CSM infantry out in the cold. Would we also make a 2w unit to replace raptors? And a heavy version to replace havocs? And an elite version to replace Chosen? At that point, why not just give the regular version 2W instead of making new units?

 

There should certainly be a distinction between recent renegades/newly created CSM and proper Traitor Legionaries. We have that for some legions via the Cult Marines. It would be nice to get an elite statline to represent old(er) marines for the Undivided Legion that are elites normally, but Troops for them.

 

Vanilla CSM infantry should be kept for those who actually like them for some inexplicable reason, Raptors and Havocs are trapped because of models, and Chosen should also be buffed since the usual complaint is that they go splat despite all those nice toys.

 

 

I liked them in 5th. I'd like them now if they were good.