What CSM need

[Closet Skeleton]

- Revise Legion Traits to Apply to Vehicles. Predators and Land Raiders really suffer in comparison to their Imperial counterparts. They cost about the same without getting the same benefits and they are completely outclassed by PEQ tanks. At least bring them up to par by allowing them to do stuff specific to the Legion.

 

Loyalists barely use Predators or Land Raiders so this seems like an odd point.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Predators need to be brought up to be on par with everyone else's main battle tank. Considering that many of those shoot twice, that's tough. Predators should at the minimum ignore penalties for moving and firing, and perhaps even have some extra movement speed (they are supposed to be fast compared to a Russ). And perhaps bring back Kill Shot strat in some form.

 

Land Raiders need their assault ramps back, and to be cheaper.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

- Daemon machine need Daemon engine spirit and stay at 4+ to hit, they also need either legion trait or their god trait -because, they are daemon-.

- Word bearers insist their is a universal chaos mark with actual good stuff coming in.

- A new Defiler model.. and news rules for the big canon

- No divinity stratagem usable on cultist

- The Assault vehicule rules of the impulsor on Land raider (coz.. they are assault vehicule)

- Give the chosen the same treatment as the command squad for CSM : No more chosen squad datasheet, instead make them individual model units (with the charac keyword) who buff their surrounding mates. With buff depending on mutation you have to choose (like Slaanesh Pheromone to cancel retreat from CC)

- New invocation rules, with invocation points like in AoS

- Raptor/Warp talon should never had been separeted, so a new model with a fusion between those two datasheet

- Same goes with the Mutilator/Obliterator

[Closet Skeleton]

Predators need to be brought up to be on par with everyone else's main battle tank. Considering that many of those shoot twice, that's tough. Predators should at the minimum ignore penalties for moving and firing, and perhaps even have some extra movement speed (they are supposed to be fast compared to a Russ). And perhaps bring back Kill Shot strat in some form.

 

Land Raiders need their assault ramps back, and to be cheaper.

 

Leman Russ are move 10 so Predators are already fast, non-Baal Predators shouldn't outpace rhinos and rhinos should be slower than ork trukks so have the right speed. Predators aren't a main battle tank, they're a medium tank at best and pretty much a light tank in the current rules.

 

They should ignore moving penalties on the turret at least but not on the sponsons, used to be they couldn't move and fire the sponsons at all after all. I wouldn't mind if they just had a rule that changed turret weapons to assault.

 

 

- A new Defiler model.. and news rules for the big canon

 

- The Assault vehicule rules of the impulsor on Land raider (coz.. they are assault vehicule)

 

- Give the chosen the same treatment as the command squad for CSM : No more chosen squad datasheet, instead make them individual model units (with the charac keyword) who buff their surrounding mates. With buff depending on mutation you have to choose (like Slaanesh Pheromone to cancel retreat from CC)

- Raptor/Warp talon should never had been separeted, so a new model with a fusion between those two datasheet

- Same goes with the Mutilator/Obliterator

 

The defiler cannon is a battle cannon and its bad for the same reason index leman russ ones were bad, it doesn't need new rules it just needs the rules that other battlecannons have.

 

The Impulsor is open topped and you can't assault out of it, giving that rule to land raiders wouldn't help.

Loyalist Command squads are still a unit, they're just called company veterans.

 

Warp talons were never separated from Raptors, they were a new unit with a different background.

[MegaVolt87]

CSM are in the weird spot of high on paper dmg output but not and MEQ no longer a surviveability guarantee like in the past but still paying the MEQ premiums. 8th shifted gear back to prior editions with special rules bloat and core rules exceptions for loyalists, we are still in the OG simple simon vanilla 8th ed design sphere despite PA re-vamp IMO. Right now I dont even see us properly sitting in the ven diagram of points efficency, power and rules circumventing that others enjoy to be a competitive designed faction. Its actually worse, because of the future FW re-work if it comes soon will sit for the entirety of 9th ed most likely good or bad, its a 50/50. Painting and modeling only gets you so far in enjoyment, even if we are one of the kings of that area in the hobby. HH hits all three for three (rules, painting, modeling).

 

My preferance for CSM would be to be about as squishy as we are now but with more dmg output to compensate and some points adjustments. Eg, AP-1 bolters, 35 pts rhino, vechicle squadrons in name only, so 1-3 current preads in one HS slot as an example (so like IG that wont break rule of three, because you are not taking more than three units of preads even with x9 etc), return of heavy weapon vechicle pintle mounts like 30k etc. I think our demonic vechicles should have tiers, better quality stats + rules more points for the same unit to show its potency, quality, disposability etc. So you could have 3+ throwaway distraction carnifex style constructs or 1-2 really nice death star style constructs as a choice based on how many points/ models you want to part with. Basicly a shift to show we are still in legion organization and tactical application, our demonic stuff is scary because there is so much of it or its scary to put down due to its power when it shows up in small numbers.

[Goreshed]

Honestly....

 

-I want GW to give us the rules to reflect the fluff they have put out about Chaos being the big bad guy in this latest edition.

 

-I want rules for our legions, maybe in a tier type of set up. So for instance Tier 1 would be if you simply had one detachment that was all from the same legion. Tier 2 could be if you had multiple detachments but they were all the same legion. Like...give me a bonus for playing my legion and not being like a loyalist and making some filthy soup list.

 

-I don't want what the loyalists have. I want what Chaos should have. We have our own forgeworlds. we constantly steal the stuff the imperium has, throw it into the warp and spew it back out in a more improved form. Give me that.

 

-Give me more demon engines. Give me demonic artillery that gets more powerful when you sacrifice those cultists to it. Give me something that is actually chaos and not something that the loyalists got first.

[Schlitzaf]

So for note a thing about about Predators vs Leman Russ output. When compared to a Non-Tank Commander Russ shooting twice at a similar points value. A Space Marine Predator will do the same net damage statistically speaking as an IG leman russ (non tank commander).

 

Which for most of dbl shooting tanks that is frankly the case. Tank Commanders are the problem here more than anything

[Closet Skeleton]

So for note a thing about about Predators vs Leman Russ output. When compared to a Non-Tank Commander Russ shooting twice at a similar points value. A Space Marine Predator will do the same net damage statistically speaking as an IG leman russ (non tank commander).

 

Which for most of dbl shooting tanks that is frankly the case. Tank Commanders are the problem here more than anything

What Predator what Leman Russ? A Nova cannon isn't a punisher cannon, predators can't specialise as anti-infantry to the same degree a Leman Russ can and a specialised anti-tank Russ has to go with multimeltas which cuts its optimum range down. Not even the Forge World Leman Russ Annihilator is a direct comparison to a 4 lascanon Predator.

 

A russ doesn't have to be a commander to spend 2 cp to get a auto 12 shots on a demolisher cannon, that's nastier than any stratagem that applies to predators and with Vostroyan can even be range 30".

 

Triple Fire Prism is a completely different kettle of fish to triple Predators or triple Tank Commanders and are the main 'other' double shooting tank.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[Schlitzaf]

Leman Russ Battle Cannon w/ Lascannons

Vs

Predator w/ Autocannon and Dbl Lascannon

[Tallarn Commander]

Based on my experience. I'd have to agree with Schlitzaf.

Over the course of 8th edition, I've played many games where my WE and NL have been supported by either 1 or 2 CSM Predators with Predator Autocannon/twin las or 1 or 2 Renegades and Heretics (so no orders) vanilla Leman Russes (with either hull HB or las). Based off of my games the damage output of the Preds is almost the same as that of the traitor Russes, although the Russes do tend to survive more games than my Preds.

I'd love for my R&H Russes to be able to have some sort of buff similar to what the IG get. Heck, as we all know, R&H in general need some additional rules love. :)

Predator Gramps supports advancing Militia, Mutant Rabble, Rhinos, and Maulerfiend in a battle vs Harlequins

Blood Reaver and Night Lords CSM sit back and shoot while Militia advance during a fight with Blood Angels

[Wolf Lord Loki]

 

-Give me more demon engines. Give me demonic artillery that gets more powerful when you sacrifice those cultists to it. Give me something that is actually chaos and not something that the loyalists got first.

Love that idea. D3 mortals/1 astartes = double shot. 2D6 mortals/ D6 astartes =triple shot??

As a Strat maybe?

[Goreshed]

Honestly, don't care. Make it specific to each god.

 

I'm also of the kind of person that never minded the random rolls for things.

[Panzer]

 

I'm also of the kind of person that never minded the random rolls for things.

 

Same. The only random rolls I disliked were for psychic powers and warlord traits because it goes against the "build your own hero" concept, but all the other random rolls for (mainly) chaos units I was perfectly fine with.

[Goreshed]

Honestly, having those random aspects made chaos, well chaos. The fact that a dread could get pissed and kill everything near it, friend or foe, made it a challenge to not only play against and with. It had character.

 

Now character is just "I want all the fluff but none of the draw backs on the table"

[Marit Lage]

Honestly, the biggest things that Chaos needs is army wide stuff, not new stuff (you're never getting real drop pods, and they're not great now regardless) or major unit revisions. However, some units need reworking:

 

Chosen: needs infiltrate or equivalent back. Part of the reason for taking these guys in previous editions was how flexible their deployment was, in addition to the their crazy weapons. Give Black Legion the ability to take these as troops.

 

Khorne Berzerkers: needs a new model. Jesus Christ.

 

Mutilators: either give them the Obliterator treatment or allow units of 5. They don't get enough models or attacks to be threatening.

 

All main battle tanks: needs an ability like the Leman Russ to fire its turret twice when stationary or moving slow.

[MegaVolt87]

Honestly, having those random aspects made chaos, well chaos. The fact that a dread could get pissed and kill everything near it, friend or foe, made it a challenge to not only play against and with. It had character.

 

Now character is just "I want all the fluff but none of the draw backs on the table"

Random is garbage. Even in less competitive games back in the day no one ever took them. What's worse than not having control over your own models is paying a points premium for assumed consistant god rolls on random stats, eg new oblits. Random is a lazy design trope for CSM, one of the reasons why we are not exactly popular, even orks design has moved away from that for the better.

[Tyriks]

You can definitely feel Chaotic without being super random all the time.  They could add a strat to make our bolters or chainswords really dangerous for a phase, but they get hot for the duration.  Or, they could let us sacrifice cultists to gain buffs, or give army-wide bonuses for each god, or plenty of other things that don't require massive random tables with no ability to mitigate bad rolls.  I don't mind randomness, and I'm not playing competitively (and I'm not too concerned with winning), but I would really hate going back to those tables.

[Lucerne]

Honestly, CSM should at least have a model and unit option that's basically full on Nazgul. Consumed by dark power, wielding unholy sorceries/blades, striking dread into the hearts of those that oppose them, and each a king in their own right.

 

Some sort of superchosen in the style of AoS Varanguard, even limited to Black Legion.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Lucerne

[Tyriks]

Honestly, CSM should at least have a model and unit option that's basically full on Nazgul. Consumed by dark power, wielding unholy sorceries/blades, striking dread into the hearts of those that oppose them, and each a king in their own right.

 

Some sort of superchosen in the style of AoS Varanguard, even limited to Black Legion.

That sounds cool... but at this point I'd gladly settle for just a plain old Chosen kit.

[Goreshed]

@Megavolt87 - Dreads were never an issue if you ran them up the flank or kept them engaged near an enemy that was closer than your own troops. I'd also argue that the few units that we do have random rolls for are not the biggest, nor is it close to being a big reason why people don't play chaos. Was I surprised Chaos still had random rolls in this edition compared to others? Not really. Do I think that there was a time and a place for them? Sure, and in this day and age I'd be against the random roll for the sole fact that it would speed the game up (not that it takes that much out of the game but if you are doing it across the game universe, why single chaos out?).

 

@Lucerne - Having more units focused onto one singular legion outside of a respective codex just makes Black Legion no better than the Smurfs on the loyalist side. Chosen being able to specialize like the used to would go farther than a singular unit or model that belongs to just one legion.

 

@Marit Larg - You've hit it on the head. We need army wide rules to bring us back.

 

--

 

Give World Eaters and Emperor's Children their own books and then toss all of the undivided into another book and it would go a long way for Chaos. So long as the army rules are actually something worth while. And for the love of the warp, please GW just give chaos new bezerkers and noise marines and this is coming from a Iron Warrior player.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Deleted Edited April 24, 2020 by Putrid Choir
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