Death on the Wind and when to use it

[Shaezus]

Hi guys.

 

This question came up in a recent game Vs a Tau player.

 

The condition for using the Death on the Wind is, as the wording says: "Use this stratagem in the fight phase"

 

As written, there is nothing to say I must play the stratagem before rolling for damage. I can roll for damage and if there's too many 1s in there, pop the strat.

 

My opponent disagreed and in this case, because it didn't make too much difference, I played the strat before rolling.

 

In a tournament situation I would check in advance with the TO but I would like to know what fellow BA players think and how you play it.

 

Compare to "Gene - Wrought Might" where the condition is specific: "...when a unit from your army is chosen to fight with". It is clear that the strat is played before rolls are made. Given the absence of any such specification to the condition for DotW, do you think it can be played after rolling for damage?

[Thoridon]

I'd say it's intended to be used before rolling for damage:

 

"when resolving an attack made by a model in that unit"

 

If you wait until you've already rolled for damage, that attack has already been resolved.

 

On the other hand, I do see ambiguity in when during the attack process you could pop it. If you've rolled to hit and wound but not yet rolled for damage, you are still resolving the attack. It doesn't say you have to use it before making an attack, so as written it could be 'legal' to wait and see how many wounds you got through.

 

Edit: I'm now doubting my first thought. The more I think about it, is an attack actually fully resolved until the damage has been applied? I can certainly see the case for saying you are still in the process of resolving things when you roll for damage, and could then use the stratagem to upgrade any 1s before your opponent assigns the damage to resolve the attack(s). I might be leaning towards your interpretation.

 

Edit 2: Having checked the main rulebook I'm back to my original view. In the section for making attacks it has "4. Resolving Attacks" which includes the whole hit, wound, allocation, saving throw and inflicting damage steps. I'd say the strategem is worded to imply that you should use it at the beginning of that whole process, so before making any rolls at all.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Thoridon

[Shaezus]

Thanks, Thoridon. That's a good point and I appreciate the response!

 

I know RAW overrides "implied" but I do feel that the normal thing would be to pop the strat before rolling. I just wonder if they didn't specify it for a reason.

[CaptainHelion]

One of the things to remember is that you technically resolve each "To Hit, To Wound, Save, Damage" set individually (Yes, even with fast rolling!). So, if you wait to use the Stratagem until you've rolled all the attacks, you'd technically only be able to affect the last roll. Based on the wording of the Strat, I'd say the right time to be using it is when you select the Guard to attack, and before you roll any dice. 

[Morticon]

I agree with the OP in terms of you can do it at ANY stage of the fight phase, but as CaptainHelion noted- you roll individually (no fast rolling) - so its not in our interests

[Shaezus]

That's a great point by CaptainHelion, however the BRB states "close combat attacks CAN be made one at a time", my emphasis on the can, "...or in some cases you can roll the dice for a number of attacks together".

 

Thus in the case of a whole squad of Sanguinary Guard all with fists, they are all resolved together. At this point I'm still seeing the "use in the fight phase" as meaning any point in the fight phase. So after damage rolls are made seems to fit RAW.

 

Against a single target - a stormsurge in the game where this query came up - this seems legit to me. Against a unit of multiple multi - wound models DotW would have to be popped before rolling for damage, so the question is moot in this case.

[Morticon]

Shazeus-   That's a fair catch. 

It's actually an oddity regarding fast dice - where the RAI is to speed up the game, but the implication is that you can can wind up "breaking" the system 

You do seem to meet the requirements to do this (fast dice):  "all the attacks have the same WS, S, AP and damage"  - so even though its "abusive" (and may actually see overruling in tournaments) - RAW you're good.  

 

[Shaezus]

Morticon ~ It probably is abusive, but what are loopholes for? And can you tell I'm not a lawyer?

 

Seriously though it's not a big deal either way - a case of trying to save 1 CP unless I know for sure the strat is needed - and if I hadn't seen the wording, I would assume the strat is popped at the start of the fight phase.

 

GW seem to be more specific with wording this edition, so the absence here is just a little curious

[CaptainHelion]

Yeah, for sure. It should be something like "Use this Stratagem in the Fight Phase, when you select a Sanguinary Guard unit to attack". Simple.