We have a Wolf Lord down (Saga of the Beast spoiler)

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Haven't seen anyone mention this, but Saga of the Beast apparently killed off another Wolf Lord. Not Ragnar. It's unconfirmed, but...

 

 

Kjarl Grimblood is presumed kill in action. Vurgir Greypelt assumed command of the Grimbloods.

 

 

By my math, that's four Wolf Lords dead in a few years.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Lord Nord

[Krakendoomcool]

If these rumours are true the Wolftime is nearing brothers.

 

We shall await further reports.

 

Sven is still MIA.

[Guest Triszin]

you do spoiler tags like this

 

 

[/spioler]

 

but with spoiler spelled correctly.

 

who is the new one killed off?

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

you do spoiler tags like this

 

 

[/spioler]

 

but with spoiler spelled correctly.

 

who is the new one killed off?

 

Thanks, I'll re-edit the OP.

[Wispy]

the next proper Space Wolves proper codex is really going to need an overhaul. new grand annulus art, new great companies, new badges, etc. Edited March 29, 2020 by Wispy

[Krakendoomcool]

the next proper Space Wolves proper codex is really going to need an overhaul. new grand annulus art, new great companies, new badges, etc.

Nooooo! You shut your mouth!

[Leif Bearclaw]

Can't wait for them to continue to ignore how SW succession is meant to work and have the Company still use the old sigil, nickname etc.

 

On the other hand, when I saw the thread title I was kinda expecting bad RL news about a member of the forum, so this isn't as bad as I'd feared .

Edited March 29, 2020 by Leif Bearclaw

[Bjorn Firewalker]

If these rumours are true the Wolftime is nearing brothers.

If the Wolftime is near, so should the Primarch be. Will Games Workshop give us a Leman Russ model for M41- at least a profile we can use if we wish to have Guilliman count as Russ, maybe after we kitbash him to look manly instead of the very embodiment of 4chan's "Girly-man" joke?

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

On the other hand, when I saw the thread title I was kinda expecting bad RL news about a member of the forum, so this isn't as bad as I'd feared .

 

Oops - I didn't even think about anyone taking it that way. Given what happened with Brand and what's currently happening in the world, I probably should have.

[PeteySödes]

Oof yea that was my first reaction too. That lessened the blow though where normally I’d have likely been super salty lol.

 

I really hope this isn’t us slowly losing great companies. As was discussed in the WD thread, it seems like steps are being taken to improve(address at all) our recent fluff at least.

[Oshikai]

Just look at the poor Imperial Fists, I have stopped counting how often they loose a Chapter Master. Alas, being a Space Marine is a tough Job. Death is occupational Hazard.

 

(And happy that we are talking Hobby here, me as well thought that we lost a Forum Brother for a Moment.)

[Bryan Blaire]

Maybe just put a note in the title saying (GW Fiction)? I also was worried we had lost a member of the board given the currently disease progression.

 

I will return to post abut Saga of the Beast here in a while once I've read and digested more.

[Valerian]

I'm thinking they're "making room," for more Primaris Wolf Lords, as they continue the slow transition.  Ragnar crossed the Primaris Rubicon, so we have a named special character with a model, who'll be one of them, but they need space in the fluff for others to have DIY Primaris Wolf Lords, too.  That'll give justification for players to start making Wolf Lords in Phobos Armour, Wolf Lords in Gravis Armour, and regular Primaris Wolf Lords.

 

Val

[mactire]

It's also been several Hundred years in-universe, it used to be a big deal how old and long Ulrik and Grimnar were and had lead the chapter, it stands to reason that Wolf Lords die and get replaced. Happened me with Egil IronWolf, but I'm plowing away with the new Lord (can't think of his name right now). Given that it's been a couple of hundred years, it's logical that some of the Primaris will have made Wolf Guard and that's where we get our new Lords from, whether they keep the old Company emblems or not is kind of a moot point, as it's always been stated some do and some don't. In fact it might make more sense for a new Primaris Lord to maintain the emblem to ensure continuity and prevent a them and us situation.

 

Not trying to promote Primaris here, personally I have none and don't intend getting them, just from an aesthetic point of view.  

[Oshikai]

I think the only Thing that would really get under my Skin would be losing Grimnar, would love a Novel that goes more into Depth on him, similar to "Dante". 

[Krakendoomcool]

I think the only Thing that would really get under my Skin would be losing Grimnar, would love a Novel that goes more into Depth on him, similar to "Dante".

 

You read ADB's 'the emperor's gift'? He's in that and he is a badass! It's set during the 1st war for Armageddon.

[Oshikai]

Thats actually the only ADB Novel that I haven`t read, somehow I allways forget about that one, gonna fix that ASAP. Thx Mate.

[Leif Bearclaw]

whether they keep the old Company emblems or not is kind of a moot point, as it's always been stated some do and some don't.

I don't think it has, it's always been the case (until the new, rushed and not thought through (imo, obviously) fluff) that new WLs chose a new emblem for their Company. Sure, the badges are reused overtime, but there's a big difference between 'The Thunderwolf isn't in use atm, I'll take it' and 'the previous guy used the Thunderwolf, just leave it in place'. It undermines the point of the Great Companies, that each WL stamps his mark on the force as its warlord and chieftain. If Egil's Company is always the Ironwolves (which is false, as the 5th ed dec noted Egil actually changed his name when he chose the Ironwolf totem) then it's no different from the Ultramarine 4th Company being 'The Defenders of Ultramar' or the IF 5th being 'The Heralds of Truth'.

 

For reference, here's what the 2nd, 3rd and 5th ed dexes had to say on the subject:

 

2nd

 

Each Great Company is named after its leader or Wolf Lord. When a Wolf Lord is slain in battle, a new Wolf Lord is proclaimed, and the Great Company takes on a new name together with its new leader. Thus the Great Companies have no fixed identity as do the companies of other Space Marine Chapters, but are constantly changing through the ages as one mighty leader succeeds another. Each Wolf Lord chooses as his emblem some symbol or badge from the ancient legends of Fenris. This symbol, usually representing a wolf, becomes the Great Company's banner and is repeated on the armour of each Space Marine warrior. Although there have been thousands of Wolf Lords over the Space Wolves' long history, many have chosen to repeat badges or legendary figures used by famous precursors.

 

3rd

 

Great Companies are named after their Wolf Lord. When a Wolf Lord is slain, a new Wolf Lord is proclaimed by the old Lord's elite retinue of Wolf Guard and the Great Company takes on a new name. Thus the Great Companies are not fixed as are the companies of other Space Marine Chapters, but change through the ages as on leader succeeds another.

 

5th

 

Each Great Company is usually named after its Wolf Lord -Bjorn Stormwolf's Great Company for example, which is famous for its thunderous approach to planetary invasion. When a Wolf Lord is slain, a successor is elected by the old Lord's retinue of Wolf Guard, and the Great Company takes on his name instead. This is an honoiur beyond measure, and each Wolf Lord strives harder than ever to live up to the heroic example set by his predecessors. Thus the Great Companies are not fixed in the manner of other Space Marine Chapters, but change throughout the ages as one leader succeeds another.

 

It's pretty clear that, even though symbols are reused over time, the identity of the Companies change with each new Lord. Which makes sense, keeping the old Lord's symbol means the new Lord is forever under his predecessor's shadow, hardly a desirable outcome for inspiring the men into the future and putting your mark on what is now your Company.

 

 

In fact it might make more sense for a new Primaris Lord to maintain the emblem to ensure continuity and prevent a them and us situation.

I'd actually say the opposite here. That a Marine (Primaris or regular) that need to call back to his predecessor to hold his men together is a weak leader unworthy of promotion in the first place. If a Lord cannot inspire loyalty and unity by himself, he has no place in the Wolf Guard at all, let alone be chosen by his peers to lead them.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Leif Bearclaw

[Bryan Blaire]

As a note, none of the information quoted states "takes a new sigil" only "takes on a new name" - there are ways for that to occur without the sigil changing at all, i.e. the Ironwolves could become the Steel-born, the Drakeslayers could become the Stareaters, and the Red Moons could become the Draugrfangs, all without changing sigils if the new Wolf Lord wants the sigil to become his as well. This need not always occur though, they are free to choose, so if they want a different sigil, they can take one - the Great Companies aren't supposed to be fixed for all time.

 

Even the "named after their leader" detail is clearly not fixed, because Krom's Great Company is named the Drakeslayers, not the Sun Wolves, or Dragongazes - it's similar, but not always the same.

 

In the end, there's enough wiggle room that whether you interpret it as "always change names, so always change sigils" or "always change names, but only change sigils if they want to choose a new one", either way can work.

[mactire]

Fair enough Leif, I'm just going from my rough take on it. It does however seem logical, in universe, that the Wolf Lords could have changed a couple of times since the fall of Cadia to the present time line. This would apply to all Chapters btw, but I find it interesting that the Wolves continue to raise warriors the old way as well, it does imply that while no new minis will appear our old marines will be supported, rules wise, for some time to come.

[Valerian]

So, I just read that section in Saga of the Beast, and it doesn't really go down in the way we've been discussing.  Kjarl Grimblood's command ship goes down in a huge fleet battle between Orks and various Imperials (at least 3 Chapters had assets there).  The Herald of Morkai's shipmaster contacts Vurgir Greypelt to let him know the Axe of Russ was destroyed (with Kjarl on it), and asks for Greypelt's orders, as Lord Grimblood's second in command.

 

It's what you'd expect for transition of command in the middle of battle.  No time for voting among the Wolf Guard, and certainly no time for the changing of Great Company names and sigils.  Greypelt is the Battle Leader and now has command.  The rest will be dealt with after victory is secured.

[Leif Bearclaw]

As a note, none of the information quoted states "takes a new sigil" only "takes on a new name" - there are ways for that to occur without the sigil changing at all, i.e. the Ironwolves could become the Steel-born, the Drakeslayers could become the Stareaters, and the Red Moons could become the Draugrfangs, all without changing sigils if the new Wolf Lord wants the sigil to become his as well. This need not always occur though, they are free to choose, so if they want a different sigil, they can take one - the Great Companies aren't supposed to be fixed for all time.

 

Oh come on. New leader, new name, said new leader chooses his emblem. Its pretty clear that emblem is meant to change with the Lord.

 

Plus, think about it from a in universe standpoint. Like I said in my last post, why would a Lord keep the emblem of his predecessor? Not only does that forever cast a shadow over the new Lord's authority but it also undermines the new Lord's saga. Choosing to copy the hero he replaced rather than forge his own tale and make his mark as a Jarl of Russ. It just doesn't add up. 'Honouring his predecessors acts of extreme valour' is a weaksauce justification, because every Wolf Lord has a history of acts of extreme valour. That's how you get to be Lord in the first place. If that was a legit reason, the Companies would have had their emblems and names standardised millennia ago.

 

 

Even the "named after their leader" detail is clearly not fixed, because Krom's Great Company is named the Drakeslayers, not the Sun Wolves, or Dragongazes - it's similar, but not always the same.

 

In the end, there's enough wiggle room that whether you interpret it as "always change names, so always change sigils" or "always change names, but only change sigils if they want to choose a new one", either way can work.

Actually, that's more an aspect of the changing fluff. The current nicknames for the Great Companies were only introduced with the 7th ed codex (didn't quote that one because I don't have my copy to hand), previously they were almost universally referred to by the name of their Lord (with occasional uses of the symbol, like a short story in the 3rd ed book where Kjarl talks about 'his Fire Wolves' during a conference of Wolf Lords).

 

 

In the end, there's enough wiggle room that whether you interpret it as "always change names, so always change sigils" or "always change names, but only change sigils if they want to choose a new one", either way can work.

I'd vehemently disagree there. It's not 'wiggle room', it just ignoring what has previously been said about the succession of Wolf Lords. Again, the point of the unique Wolf system is that new Lords bring a new identity to the Company, otherwise it's just the same as other Marine Chapters with formalised nicknames for their companies (which every 1st Founding Chapter aside from the DAs seem to do). 

 

It does however seem logical, in universe, that the Wolf Lords could have changed a couple of times since the fall of Cadia to the present time line.

Oh yes, it's entirely plausible, it's just not what GW have done. The 2 WoM/GS KIAs had their Companies keep their heraldry. Egil's out of 'respect' (which is baffling for reasons I've already gone through) and Sven's because they only declared him 'MIA' (which is even more stupid, as he was lost on a Blackstone that collided with a planet over a century ago). The other 10 Lords seem to have persisted unchanged, aside from the new loss of Kjarl.

 

 

So, I just read that section in Saga of the Beast, and it doesn't really go down in the way we've been discussing.  Kjarl Grimblood's command ship goes down in a huge fleet battle between Orks and various Imperials (at least 3 Chapters had assets there).  The Herald of Morkai's shipmaster contacts Vurgir Greypelt to let him know the Axe of Russ was destroyed (with Kjarl on it), and asks for Greypelt's orders, as Lord Grimblood's second in command.

 

It's what you'd expect for transition of command in the middle of battle.  No time for voting among the Wolf Guard, and certainly no time for the changing of Great Company names and sigils.  Greypelt is the Battle Leader and now has command.  The rest will be dealt with after victory is secured.

Fair enough, I assumed the story would also somewhat address the aftermath too. That said, I still expect GW to repeat the mistakes made with Egil and Sven for Kjarl, whenever they get around to covering it.

[Valerian]

No, it doesn't address the aftermath. They don't even get to the aftermath.  The story finishes with Greypelt taking in some status reports, and finishes with him saying, "We fight on.  For Russ and the Allfather, destroy them all."

[Bryan Blaire]

Oh my God! The Company in charge of the fluff is alstering the fluff to have it say what they want it to say! Oh the horror! I can't take it because I'm too stuck in my ways! Oh wait - this is the Space Wolves we're talking about here - they do things the way they want and change is a way of life on Fenris.

 

Yes, things have changed. It happens. Traditions don't always win on Fenris. ;)

 

In the end, none of the quotes specified that the sigils changed, only names.

 

Names change - names mean everything and inform identity. The sigil doesn't HAVE to change for the identity to change. Thinking it must is limited. If anything, the sigil is less important because it is known that sigils will be repeated over time - back to back is just shorter time, but could exclusively be due to the new Lord actually liking is as his sigil. Doesn't have to have anything to do with the previous Lord at all.

 

I really hope this isn’t us slowly losing great companies. As was discussed in the WD thread, it seems like steps are being taken to improve(address at all) our recent fluff at least.

I don't think there have been any Great Companies lost though, simply leadership changing hands, which seems like something that we'll probably see happening more often given the new (:o More change!) state of the galaxy.

 

I'm actually surprised that it's not been noted in other Chapters how many have lost their Company Captains/Masters.

 

No, it doesn't address the aftermath. They don't even get to the aftermath. The story finishes with Greypelt taking in some status reports, and finishes with him saying, "We fight on. For Russ and the Allfather, destroy them all."

I'm just getting there, but it doesn't seem like it either. Greypelt may not even end up winning the vote, the eventual Great Company Lord could be someone else.

[Wispy]

Oof yea that was my first reaction too. That lessened the blow though where normally I’d have likely been super salty lol.

 

I really hope this isn’t us slowly losing great companies. As was discussed in the WD thread, it seems like steps are being taken to improve(address at all) our recent fluff at least.

 

honestly, I am usually very forgiving about GW but this is one of the things i am salty about - if you're going to kill off Wolf Lords you need to make some new Wolf Lords/Great Companies to take their place. Like I said earlier, they just seem really reticent to move on from the set Great Company badges and the Grand Annulus art. Invest some creative resources in some new lore and graphic design, for god sake. I am 100% expecting Sven Bloodhowl to come back from the dead and Vorek Gnarlfist to start calling himself Ironwolf just just so they can keep using the Firehowler and Iron Wolf badges respectively.

 

 

One thing I will say - it does give them some room to have some new Primaris Wolf Lords the next go around. I mentioned before the fact that Dark Angels Lazarus was designed to be just a generic captain and wasn't intended to be a Special Character (i suspect this also the case for Adrax and Garadon). it implied that GW might be working on nother non-descript Captain-types for each chapter, and could mean there's a new Wolf Lord model waiting in the wings.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Wispy