TiguriusX Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Old school marines are back on the menu baby! Spent the day theory crafting how the non primaris units might benefit. Started impressed by the blood claw outflank combo Then I took a closer look at Grey Hunters and it hit me. Our new toy the tactical doctrine is perfect synergy for outflanking plasma wolves. AP 4 from rapid fire plasma and you have multiple options MSU suicide GH (101) Pack leader with combi plasma Plasma gun Plasma pistol 2 of these are the roughly the same firepower as hell blasters but help fill the battalion troop tax But after spending the day thinking about blood claws I said why not invest a bit more and get melee as well MSU flexible GH (140) WG Pack leader with combi melta and TH (plasma too risky) Plasma pistol Plasma gun Pack leader with PF Wolf standard Will not hit as hard in melee as BCs but provides powerful shooting phase before the charge for more tactical flexibility. The wolf standard combo with wolf priest canticle of hate reduces bad rolls and saves you CP Make a battalion with 3 of these and it isn't a tax but a hardcore outflanking force Wolf lord (maybe wulfen stone) in support and add in a wolf priest for charging bonus Another old favorite are the wolf guard terminators My favorite is TH and SS with 1 nasty combo Our TH terminators can hit on 2s if we spend 1 CP for fury of the champions. Nobody else can manage that with their basic terminators. If you shoot their potential target with the morkai bolts the terminators get to reroll 1s If opponent has no artillery you can own the buildings on the board because anything that gets too close risk our new all purpose heroic intervention. Anyone that charges in gets shut down with armor of russ That unit has 16 attacks base with reroll hit and reroll most wounds (21 with wulfen stone combo) You can crank that unit over MSU size as well to benefit from fighting twice etc. Follow them in with a wolf lord and saga of the hunter then chase down anything that needs killing and benefit from AP4 THs on turn 3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuarterPounder Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 I'm very excited about getting Terminators back in the game. They've always been my favorite units, style-wise and fluff-wise. I think we uniquely have an opportunity to make them carry their weight. Given that we can mix and match weapons within the unit, do you guys see opportunity to create some powerful combos? Ideas (just spitballing here...): 1. Mix of Claws and Hammers to save points. Shields paired with the Hammers for protection. 2. Throw in a Cyclone for ranged punch while the unit bides it's time until serving as a solid counter-strike. Stay in cover or a building for added protection. 3. Storm bolters and Shields, with like 2x Hammers or so just to deter chargers. Also, although expensive for only a single model, in a pinch would Fury of the Champions work on the Termie Wolf Guard in a mixed unit (like Long Fangs, for example)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 GHs mix of RF and melee weapons means they do benefit more from both Tactical and Assault Doctrines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 I'm very excited about getting Terminators back in the game. They've always been my favorite units, style-wise and fluff-wise. I think we uniquely have an opportunity to make them carry their weight. Given that we can mix and match weapons within the unit, do you guys see opportunity to create some powerful combos? Ideas (just spitballing here...): 1. Mix of Claws and Hammers to save points. Shields paired with the Hammers for protection. 2. Throw in a Cyclone for ranged punch while the unit bides it's time until serving as a solid counter-strike. Stay in cover or a building for added protection. 3. Storm bolters and Shields, with like 2x Hammers or so just to deter chargers. You can go wild and build them as the ultimate alpha strike unit Combi plasma in 1 hand Thunder hammer in the other hand Spend 1 CP in shooting phase and shoot on 2s and obliterate 1 unit at range no fear of plasma dying Spend 1 CP in fight phase and charge in (hopefully buffed by wolf priest) Hit on 2s in fight phase Fight twice if you need as well Expensive but absolutely brutal offense and effective Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuarterPounder Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 I feel like that would work well as a solid beta strike unit. Wait until the enemy has committed themselves to one flank, pushing ahead, or to hanging back, clear some screens with shooting, and then drop this bomb in cover as the rest of your army advances. They have to either deal with the Terminators or die, so it should buy at least a solid turn for the rest of your army to get in charge range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 I just theory crafted the best mix of shooting and melee 10 man squad Combi plasma Chain fist (enough to kill primaris and weight of numbers for big targets) 450 points of pure death Teleport in and remember tactical doctrine when firing Against hordes combi fire mode offsets fury of first Each model has 4 shots hitting on 3s (40 shots total) Bolter is AP1 Plasma is AP4 Against hard targets you overcharge plasma only 20 plasma shots hitting on 2s no fear of plasma death (if someone has negative modifiers you counter with keen senses...so even flyers drop like flies) After that you have 31 chainfists (41 with wulfen stone) available for melee against another hard target hitting on 2s On defense you have 2+ save for small arms fire and transhuman physiology to reduce heavy weapons The only thing missing is making them count as troops under logan grimnar But this theory crafting has me pulling out terminators as auto include now And they make excellent use of the ability to choose tactical or assault doctrine on turn 3. Wolf guard terminators might be the #1 beneficiary from PA and represent the soul of space wolves...good at both shooting and melee. Not the best at either but good at both and flexible as needed. I am going to delete my dual storm cannon leviathan and squeeze this unit in Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Haha that sounds awesome but 450 points...woof :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498884 Share on other sites More sharing options... The Saint Ragnar Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 How are you going to shoot and fade the unit? I assume you are using this on the Phobos Lord himself? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498916 Share on other sites More sharing options... TiguriusX Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 How are you going to shoot and fade the unit? I assume you are using this on the Phobos Lord himself?The shoot and fade was for the phobos wolf lord himself if he was hiding with a small bodyguard unit of terminators (5 only with CF/SS for 180 investment) He steps out of building to get LOS and mark a target with special morkai bolts. Automatic mortal wound and reroll 1s to wound means I dont need to spend points on a WGBL Then the WL backs up into the building out of LOS safe and sound again. As the official warlord he will be hard to remove and kill I can use 1 CP for hero stratagem to get the jump wolf lord (my list has 2...let me post it to make sense) who will likely die in combat a WL trait without giving up the warlord points when he dies *edit* Rough draft of a possible list with full sized terminators in a death star role instead of defensive http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362911-2k-itc-list-wolf-pack-old-and-new/ The phobos WL bubble keeps melee terminators safe from most alpha strike tricks and the building prevents LOS to stop most shooting. IMO space wolves are the masters of CQB. We are not the best of any 1 combat phase but we are very good at shooting and melee combat. We always have a tool to pick off a min max opponent and are basically a take all comers codex. With LOS blocking terrain we get even better! *edit Just realized keen senses removes combi fire penalty as well So add in 20 bolter shots at BS2 AP1 to their shooting damage Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498923 Share on other sites More sharing options... Lord Ragnarok Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Did someone mention plasma and terminators? My TDAWGs are rusty and hungry... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498956 Share on other sites More sharing options... Dark Legionnare Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Did someone mention plasma and terminators? My TDAWGs are rusty and hungry... Amen. Just the doctrines alone is making me eager to whip out the WG termi five man. AP-1 is such a big deal with storm bolters. As fragile as termies may ultimately be with so much D2 around, at least that -1 in tac doctrine puts them in for some quality dakka. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499042 Share on other sites More sharing options... Karhedron Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 I have a load of WG terminator sprues I picked up cheaply when someone else quit the hobby. I never got around to building them as I could never make up my mind on the loadout but this is giving me definite ideas. Anyone know where to get a bulk load of TDA combi-plasmas? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499143 Share on other sites More sharing options... Rune Priest Jbickb Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Convert them with storm bolters and plasma pistols. That's what I did many moons ago Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499154 Share on other sites More sharing options... Valdr Fell-fist Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 I’d suggest Shapeways, Brother. They have a good range of designs for fairly reasonable prices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499155 Share on other sites More sharing options... Krakendoomcool Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Good work Tigs. Now want to give Blood Claws, Grey Hunters and Terminators a go with the new rules. Haven't started any Primaris so this is all good news for using our existing models. Good luck with the isolation madness, keep up the masterplans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499183 Share on other sites More sharing options... Bloody Legionnaire Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499328 Share on other sites More sharing options... TiguriusX Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them. Bad news is the bonus to heavy weapons is only turn 1 So out flanking misses the doctrine bonus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499331 Share on other sites More sharing options... Bloody Legionnaire Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them. Bad news is the bonus to heavy weapons is only turn 1 So out flanking misses the doctrine bonus Drop Pods, Wolf Brother... Drop Pods ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499334 Share on other sites More sharing options... TiguriusX Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them.Bad news is the bonus to heavy weapons is only turn 1 So out flanking misses the doctrine bonus Drop Pods, Wolf Brother... Drop Pods ;) I have seen some insane drop pod combos for vanilla devastator marines. Grav pod bomb with full buffs was able to peel a major chunk off my knight and would have deleted anything else What are you planning? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499336 Share on other sites More sharing options... Wolf Guard Dan Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Back in early 3rd edition a lot of marine sprues I got all had a plasma pistol for each guy. I think they came from berserkers. You may be able to find some in an old bits box or on eBay. With some quick conversion work you’ll have a workable plasma gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499341 Share on other sites More sharing options... Bloody Legionnaire Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 TiguriusX, What really got me thinking about Drop Pod Long Fangs was Multi-Meltas. Such a powerful weapon but it has some range restrictions and the Drop Pod completely mitigates range problems. Now with the new rules and access to Doctrines I'm thinking Plasma Cannons. I'm not sure about having 2x4 Plasma Cannons or arming a second pack with different weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499350 Share on other sites More sharing options... TiguriusX Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 TiguriusX, What really got me thinking about Drop Pod Long Fangs was Multi-Meltas. Such a powerful weapon but it has some range restrictions and the Drop Pod completely mitigates range problems. Now with the new rules and access to Doctrines I'm thinking Plasma Cannons. I'm not sure about having 2x4 Plasma Cannons or arming a second pack with different weapons. Plasma and keen senses and wolf's eye (or whatever its called) Hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and rerolling wounds 5 plasma cannons and 2 plasma guns is max you can squeeze in that single unit Hope those d3 shots roll high! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499447 Share on other sites More sharing options... WickedJester1013 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 How good are thunder wolf cav now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499564 Share on other sites More sharing options... TiguriusX Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 How good are thunder wolf cav now? Have the same flaws they did before but can hit harder with CP buffs They needed help surviving and reaching melee but only got bare minimum Transhuman physiology may help remove a few wounds from the big guns Maybe the canticle of hate gives them a little boost but they are still getting gunned down But overall not a big boost IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499569 Share on other sites More sharing options... Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Archived This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.
The Saint Ragnar Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 How are you going to shoot and fade the unit? I assume you are using this on the Phobos Lord himself? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted March 30, 2020 Author Share Posted March 30, 2020 How are you going to shoot and fade the unit? I assume you are using this on the Phobos Lord himself?The shoot and fade was for the phobos wolf lord himself if he was hiding with a small bodyguard unit of terminators (5 only with CF/SS for 180 investment) He steps out of building to get LOS and mark a target with special morkai bolts. Automatic mortal wound and reroll 1s to wound means I dont need to spend points on a WGBL Then the WL backs up into the building out of LOS safe and sound again. As the official warlord he will be hard to remove and kill I can use 1 CP for hero stratagem to get the jump wolf lord (my list has 2...let me post it to make sense) who will likely die in combat a WL trait without giving up the warlord points when he dies *edit* Rough draft of a possible list with full sized terminators in a death star role instead of defensive http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362911-2k-itc-list-wolf-pack-old-and-new/ The phobos WL bubble keeps melee terminators safe from most alpha strike tricks and the building prevents LOS to stop most shooting. IMO space wolves are the masters of CQB. We are not the best of any 1 combat phase but we are very good at shooting and melee combat. We always have a tool to pick off a min max opponent and are basically a take all comers codex. With LOS blocking terrain we get even better! *edit Just realized keen senses removes combi fire penalty as well So add in 20 bolter shots at BS2 AP1 to their shooting damage Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Did someone mention plasma and terminators? My TDAWGs are rusty and hungry... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5498956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Legionnare Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 Did someone mention plasma and terminators? My TDAWGs are rusty and hungry... Amen. Just the doctrines alone is making me eager to whip out the WG termi five man. AP-1 is such a big deal with storm bolters. As fragile as termies may ultimately be with so much D2 around, at least that -1 in tac doctrine puts them in for some quality dakka. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 I have a load of WG terminator sprues I picked up cheaply when someone else quit the hobby. I never got around to building them as I could never make up my mind on the loadout but this is giving me definite ideas. Anyone know where to get a bulk load of TDA combi-plasmas? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Convert them with storm bolters and plasma pistols. That's what I did many moons ago Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valdr Fell-fist Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 I’d suggest Shapeways, Brother. They have a good range of designs for fairly reasonable prices. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krakendoomcool Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Good work Tigs. Now want to give Blood Claws, Grey Hunters and Terminators a go with the new rules. Haven't started any Primaris so this is all good news for using our existing models. Good luck with the isolation madness, keep up the masterplans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody Legionnaire Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them. Bad news is the bonus to heavy weapons is only turn 1 So out flanking misses the doctrine bonus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody Legionnaire Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them. Bad news is the bonus to heavy weapons is only turn 1 So out flanking misses the doctrine bonus Drop Pods, Wolf Brother... Drop Pods ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them.Bad news is the bonus to heavy weapons is only turn 1 So out flanking misses the doctrine bonus Drop Pods, Wolf Brother... Drop Pods ;) I have seen some insane drop pod combos for vanilla devastator marines. Grav pod bomb with full buffs was able to peel a major chunk off my knight and would have deleted anything else What are you planning? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Back in early 3rd edition a lot of marine sprues I got all had a plasma pistol for each guy. I think they came from berserkers. You may be able to find some in an old bits box or on eBay. With some quick conversion work you’ll have a workable plasma gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody Legionnaire Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 TiguriusX, What really got me thinking about Drop Pod Long Fangs was Multi-Meltas. Such a powerful weapon but it has some range restrictions and the Drop Pod completely mitigates range problems. Now with the new rules and access to Doctrines I'm thinking Plasma Cannons. I'm not sure about having 2x4 Plasma Cannons or arming a second pack with different weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted March 31, 2020 Author Share Posted March 31, 2020 TiguriusX, What really got me thinking about Drop Pod Long Fangs was Multi-Meltas. Such a powerful weapon but it has some range restrictions and the Drop Pod completely mitigates range problems. Now with the new rules and access to Doctrines I'm thinking Plasma Cannons. I'm not sure about having 2x4 Plasma Cannons or arming a second pack with different weapons. Plasma and keen senses and wolf's eye (or whatever its called) Hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and rerolling wounds 5 plasma cannons and 2 plasma guns is max you can squeeze in that single unit Hope those d3 shots roll high! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickedJester1013 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 How good are thunder wolf cav now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 How good are thunder wolf cav now? Have the same flaws they did before but can hit harder with CP buffs They needed help surviving and reaching melee but only got bare minimum Transhuman physiology may help remove a few wounds from the big guns Maybe the canticle of hate gives them a little boost but they are still getting gunned down But overall not a big boost IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362903-non-primaris-units-benefitting-from-pa/#findComment-5499569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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