Non primaris units benefitting from PA

[TiguriusX]

Old school marines are back on the menu baby!

 

Spent the day theory crafting how the non primaris units might benefit.

 

Started impressed by the blood claw outflank combo

 

Then I took a closer look at Grey Hunters and it hit me. Our new toy the tactical doctrine is perfect synergy for outflanking plasma wolves.

 

AP 4 from rapid fire plasma and you have multiple options

 

MSU suicide GH (101)

Pack leader with combi plasma

Plasma gun

Plasma pistol

 

2 of these are the roughly the same firepower as hell blasters but help fill the battalion troop tax

 

But after spending the day thinking about blood claws I said why not invest a bit more and get melee as well

 

MSU flexible GH (140)

WG Pack leader with combi melta and TH (plasma too risky)

Plasma pistol

Plasma gun

Pack leader with PF

Wolf standard

 

Will not hit as hard in melee as BCs but provides powerful shooting phase before the charge for more tactical flexibility.

 

The wolf standard combo with wolf priest canticle of hate reduces bad rolls and saves you CP

 

Make a battalion with 3 of these and it isn't a tax but a hardcore outflanking force

 

Wolf lord (maybe wulfen stone) in support and add in a wolf priest for charging bonus

 

 

Another old favorite are the wolf guard terminators

 

My favorite is TH and SS with 1 nasty combo

 

Our TH terminators can hit on 2s if we spend 1 CP for fury of the champions. Nobody else can manage that with their basic terminators.

 

If you shoot their potential target with the morkai bolts the terminators get to reroll 1s

 

If opponent has no artillery you can own the buildings on the board because anything that gets too close risk our new all purpose heroic intervention.

 

Anyone that charges in gets shut down with armor of russ

 

That unit has 16 attacks base with reroll hit and reroll most wounds (21 with wulfen stone combo)

 

You can crank that unit over MSU size as well to benefit from fighting twice etc.

 

Follow them in with a wolf lord and saga of the hunter then chase down anything that needs killing and benefit from AP4 THs on turn 3

Edited March 30, 2020 by TiguriusX

[QuarterPounder]

I'm very excited about getting Terminators back in the game. They've always been my favorite units, style-wise and fluff-wise. I think we uniquely have an opportunity to make them carry their weight.

 

Given that we can mix and match weapons within the unit, do you guys see opportunity to create some powerful combos? Ideas (just spitballing here...):

1. Mix of Claws and Hammers to save points. Shields paired with the Hammers for protection.

2. Throw in a Cyclone for ranged punch while the unit bides it's time until serving as a solid counter-strike. Stay in cover or a building for added protection.

3. Storm bolters and Shields, with like 2x Hammers or so just to deter chargers.

 

Also, although expensive for only a single model, in a pinch would Fury of the Champions work on the Termie Wolf Guard in a mixed unit (like Long Fangs, for example)?

Edited March 30, 2020 by QuarterPounder

[Karhedron]

GHs mix of RF and melee weapons means they do benefit more from both Tactical and Assault Doctrines.

[TiguriusX]

I'm very excited about getting Terminators back in the game. They've always been my favorite units, style-wise and fluff-wise. I think we uniquely have an opportunity to make them carry their weight.

 

Given that we can mix and match weapons within the unit, do you guys see opportunity to create some powerful combos? Ideas (just spitballing here...):

1. Mix of Claws and Hammers to save points. Shields paired with the Hammers for protection.

2. Throw in a Cyclone for ranged punch while the unit bides it's time until serving as a solid counter-strike. Stay in cover or a building for added protection.

3. Storm bolters and Shields, with like 2x Hammers or so just to deter chargers.

You can go wild and build them as the ultimate alpha strike unit

 

Combi plasma in 1 hand

 

Thunder hammer in the other hand

 

Spend 1 CP in shooting phase and shoot on 2s and obliterate 1 unit at range no fear of plasma dying

 

Spend 1 CP in fight phase and charge in (hopefully buffed by wolf priest)

 

Hit on 2s in fight phase

 

Fight twice if you need as well

 

Expensive but absolutely brutal offense and effective

Edited March 30, 2020 by TiguriusX

[QuarterPounder]

I feel like that would work well as a solid beta strike unit. Wait until the enemy has committed themselves to one flank, pushing ahead, or to hanging back, clear some screens with shooting, and then drop this bomb in cover as the rest of your army advances. They have to either deal with the Terminators or die, so it should buy at least a solid turn for the rest of your army to get in charge range.

[TiguriusX]

I just theory crafted the best mix of shooting and melee

 

10 man squad

Combi plasma

Chain fist (enough to kill primaris and weight of numbers for big targets)

 

450 points of pure death

 

Teleport in and remember tactical doctrine when firing

 

Against hordes combi fire mode offsets fury of first

 

Each model has 4 shots hitting on 3s (40 shots total)

Bolter is AP1

Plasma is AP4

 

Against hard targets you overcharge plasma only

 

20 plasma shots hitting on 2s no fear of plasma death (if someone has negative modifiers you counter with keen senses...so even flyers drop like flies)

 

After that you have 31 chainfists (41 with wulfen stone) available for melee against another hard target hitting on 2s

 

On defense you have 2+ save for small arms fire and transhuman physiology to reduce heavy weapons

 

The only thing missing is making them count as troops under logan grimnar

 

But this theory crafting has me pulling out terminators as auto include now

 

And they make excellent use of the ability to choose tactical or assault doctrine on turn 3.

 

Wolf guard terminators might be the #1 beneficiary from PA and represent the soul of space wolves...good at both shooting and melee. Not the best at either but good at both and flexible as needed.

 

I am going to delete my dual storm cannon leviathan and squeeze this unit in

Edited March 30, 2020 by TiguriusX

[PeteySödes]

Haha that sounds awesome but 450 points...woof :D

[TiguriusX]

Krakendoomcool

1

[The Saint Ragnar]

How are you going to shoot and fade the unit? I assume you are using this on the Phobos Lord himself?

[TiguriusX]

How are you going to shoot and fade the unit? I assume you are using this on the Phobos Lord himself?

The shoot and fade was for the phobos wolf lord himself if he was hiding with a small bodyguard unit of terminators (5 only with CF/SS for 180 investment)

 

He steps out of building to get LOS and mark a target with special morkai bolts.

 

Automatic mortal wound and reroll 1s to wound means I dont need to spend points on a WGBL

 

Then the WL backs up into the building out of LOS safe and sound again.

 

As the official warlord he will be hard to remove and kill

 

I can use 1 CP for hero stratagem to get the jump wolf lord (my list has 2...let me post it to make sense) who will likely die in combat a WL trait without giving up the warlord points when he dies

 

*edit*

Rough draft of a possible list with full sized terminators in a death star role instead of defensive

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362911-2k-itc-list-wolf-pack-old-and-new/

The phobos WL bubble keeps melee terminators safe from most alpha strike tricks and the building prevents LOS to stop most shooting.

 

IMO space wolves are the masters of CQB.

 

We are not the best of any 1 combat phase but we are very good at shooting and melee combat.

 

We always have a tool to pick off a min max opponent and are basically a take all comers codex.

 

With LOS blocking terrain we get even better!

 

*edit

Just realized keen senses removes combi fire penalty as well

 

So add in 20 bolter shots at BS2 AP1 to their shooting damage

Edited March 30, 2020 by TiguriusX

[Lord Ragnarok]

Did someone mention plasma and terminators? My TDAWGs are rusty and hungry...

Edited March 30, 2020 by Lord Ragnarok

[Dark Legionnare]

Did someone mention plasma and terminators? My TDAWGs are rusty and hungry...

Amen. Just the doctrines alone is making me eager to whip out the WG termi five man.  AP-1 is such a big deal with storm bolters.

 

As fragile as termies may ultimately be with so much D2 around, at least that -1 in tac doctrine puts them in for some quality dakka.

[Karhedron]

I have a load of WG terminator sprues I picked up cheaply when someone else quit the hobby. I never got around to building them as I could never make up my mind on the loadout but this is giving me definite ideas. Anyone know where to get a bulk load of TDA combi-plasmas?

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Convert them with storm bolters and plasma pistols. That's what I did many moons ago

[Valdr Fell-fist]

I’d suggest Shapeways, Brother. They have a good range of designs for fairly reasonable prices.

[Krakendoomcool]

Good work Tigs. Now want to give Blood Claws, Grey Hunters and Terminators a go with the new rules. Haven't started any Primaris so this is all good news for using our existing models.

 

Good luck with the isolation madness, keep up the masterplans.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them. 

[TiguriusX]

Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them.

Bad news is the bonus to heavy weapons is only turn 1

 

So out flanking misses the doctrine bonus

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them.

Bad news is the bonus to heavy weapons is only turn 1

 

So out flanking misses the doctrine bonus

 

 

Drop Pods, Wolf Brother... Drop Pods ;)

[TiguriusX]

 

 

 

Long Fangs are definitely winners too. The additional minus to the AP is pretty big for them.

Bad news is the bonus to heavy weapons is only turn 1

 

So out flanking misses the doctrine bonus

Drop Pods, Wolf Brother... Drop Pods ;)

I have seen some insane drop pod combos for vanilla devastator marines.

 

Grav pod bomb with full buffs was able to peel a major chunk off my knight and would have deleted anything else

 

What are you planning?

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Back in early 3rd edition a lot of marine sprues I got all had a plasma pistol for each guy. I think they came from berserkers. You may be able to find some in an old bits box or on eBay. With some quick conversion work you’ll have a workable plasma gun.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

TiguriusX, 

 

What really got me thinking about Drop Pod Long Fangs was Multi-Meltas. Such a powerful weapon but it has some range restrictions and the Drop Pod completely mitigates range problems. Now with the new rules and access to Doctrines I'm thinking Plasma Cannons. I'm not sure about having 2x4 Plasma Cannons or arming a second pack with different weapons. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Bloody Legionnaire

[TiguriusX]

TiguriusX,

 

What really got me thinking about Drop Pod Long Fangs was Multi-Meltas. Such a powerful weapon but it has some range restrictions and the Drop Pod completely mitigates range problems. Now with the new rules and access to Doctrines I'm thinking Plasma Cannons. I'm not sure about having 2x4 Plasma Cannons or arming a second pack with different weapons.

Plasma and keen senses and wolf's eye (or whatever its called)

 

Hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and rerolling wounds

 

5 plasma cannons and 2 plasma guns is max you can squeeze in that single unit

 

Hope those d3 shots roll high!

[WickedJester1013]

How good are thunder wolf cav now?

[TiguriusX]

How good are thunder wolf cav now?

Have the same flaws they did before but can hit harder with CP buffs

 

They needed help surviving and reaching melee but only got bare minimum

 

Transhuman physiology may help remove a few wounds from the big guns

 

Maybe the canticle of hate gives them a little boost but they are still getting gunned down

 

But overall not a big boost IMO