Lore Question: Rogue Traders and Astartes

[Suspicious Blue Mind]

Lore Question:

 

Ever since 1st edition of WH40K Astartes have served on Rogue Trader vessels. Sometimes detachments are sent, but usually just a handful. But Rogue Traders often have xenos also serving in their crews. Fantasy Flight even has artwork showing a Rogue Trader Captain with his crew including an Astartes and a Kroot Warrior.

 

So, here are the questions:

 

1. How does an Astartes serve with xenos?
2. Are there certain chapters that specialize in serving on Rogue Trader vessels?
3. If there are not special chapters, then which chapters allow their Space Marines serve with a Rogue Traders?
4. How does the chapter then prepare the Space Marine for possibly serving with xenos?

 

Asking this of those out there who are Space Marine "lore masters".

 

 

Suspicious Blue Mind

 

PS Given the history of this forum (The Liber) should I just expect to hear crickets chirping?

Edited March 31, 2020 by Suspicious Blue Mind

[Brother Tyler]

Note that this topic was moved to the Space Marines forum since it's a lore question about the Adeptus Astartes.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It kinda depends on the Chapter, really. I believe the Novamarines have been mentioned as having taken part in numerous secondments to Rogue Trader fleets over the years.

 

Really though, any Chapter can agree to send Marines to serve, as repayments to a debt or oath, etc. Some might see it as part of their role as crusaders. They don't have to do it, though, After all, the Astartes are almost an independent branch of the Imperium, the only figure that really has authority over them is the Emperor himself, and whatever Ordo Astartes Inquisitors manage to get enough influence to make a Chapter pay attention to the funny guy with delusions of grandeur.

 

For how they operate alongside xenos, again it depends on the Chapter. I can't see some, like the Black Templars or Dark Angels, ever willingly siding alongside sanctioned xenos, but others may tolerate it so long as the Rogue Trader orders it, given the Rogue Traders have the authority of the Emperor himself while outside the Imperium's domain.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Are there certain chapters that specialize in serving on Rogue Trader vessels?

'Specialise' is the wrong term. No Chapter is going to specialise in deploying tiny amounts of Marines to RT fleets. It's ultimately not what Marines are for. That said, the only Chapter I can think of that's been noted as having a long term established relationship with a RT was the Marines Errant (iirc) from FW's Badab books.

 

 

If there are not special chapters, then which chapters allow their Space Marines serve with a Rogue Traders?

Again, looking for some grand binary yes/no system for the Chapters is the wrong approach to take. It will depend on whether specific RTs can get along with, befriend and establish mutual debts of honour with specific Marine Chapters.

 

 

How does an Astartes serve with xenos?

Briefly, with terminal results. If FFG did stick that sort of thing in artwork, they really shouldn't have. Any peaceful coexistence between Astartes and xenos should be transitory at best,'barely tolerated allies of convenience' rather than 'shipmates'.

 

Yes, RTs can have xenos in their crews. Yes RTs can have Marines. But both at the same time is highly dubious. Basically RTs are like Inquisitors, an eclectic bunch with very different philosophies, standards and relationships with other institutions. But just like the same Ordo Malleus Inquisitor isn't going to be calling on both Grey Knights and bound Daemons at the same time, a single RT is highly unlikely to have Marines and xenos on staff simultaneously (unless the Marines are actually Renegades, or something weird like that).

[Brother Tyler]

1. How does an Astartes serve with xenos?

With a great deal of difficulty, no doubt. I imagine that Adeptus Astartes that find themselves serving alongside a member of a xenos species, whether while serving under a Rogue Trader or an Inquisitor, does so with no small degree of suppressed outrage and disgust. It's probably similar to the way the Black Templars, under the old lore, treated the necessary but hated psykers that served them (astropaths and navigators).

 

2. Are there certain chapters that specialize in serving on Rogue Trader vessels?

As answered previously, no, there aren't Chapters that "specialize" in this role. There are many Chapters that have relationships with Rogue Traders and who occasionally dispatch teams to fight alongside them.

 

3. If there are not special chapters, then which chapters allow their Space Marines serve with a Rogue Traders?

While we know of some Chapters that allow their battle-brothers to serve Rogue Traders frequently, such as the Marines Errant, the better question is whether or not we know of Chapters that don't do this. We might guess that some of the more introverted and aloof Chapters might not send their battle-brothers to serve Rogue Traders often, if at all, but we would be guessing. It's likely that the majority of Chapters have sent battle-brothers to serve Rogue Traders at one or more times over the hundreds, sometimes thousands, of years of their existence.

 

4. How does the chapter then prepare the Space Marine for possibly serving with xenos?

I'm sure there is a Rite of Tolerance for the Hated or something like that.

 

There are several things to keep in mind about this whole issue.

 

First, while the normal proscriptions for interacting with xenos don't apply to Rogue Traders, that doesn't mean that they mingle freely with them.

 

Moreover just because a Rogue Trader might allow useful xenos to serve alongside them doesn't mean that they have gaggles of the foul creatures. It's not like a group of Adeptus Astartes battle-brothers report for duty with a Rogue Trader and suddenly find themselves in a ship that resembles the cantina in Mos Eisley. Xenos among a Rogue Trader's crew will be few and far between - not every Rogue Trader will deign to allow such creatures to live among them, and those that do probably have no more than a handful.

 

Lastly, Rogue Traders don't typically command just a single vessel. Instead, they command large fleets of ships. In such a setting, it's fairly easy to insulate the Adeptus Astartes from any xenos simply by berthing the Adeptus Astartes on a vessel that is bereft of xenos presence. The Rogue Trader can then make efforts to utilize the Adeptus Astartes in operations that don't involve the xenos. If it becomes necessary to employ the Adeptus Astartes and xenos together, the Rogue Trader can prepare the battle-brothers beforehand. In addition, the Rogue Trader has only to remind the battle-brothers of his authority and the leeway granted by his Warrant. Under most circumstances, these should be sufficient to keep the Adeptus Astartes from attacking the xenos.

 

As with anything, there are no doubt exceptions to all of the above. For example, a Rogue Trader might employ a group of xenos mercenaries during some expedition (however, it seems unlikely that a Rogue Trader would have both xenos mercenaries and Adeptus Astartes at the same time). Alternately, there may be times where a Rogue Trader is forced to berth Adeptus Astartes battle-brothers on a ship that has some degree of xenos presence, or where a Rogue Trader is arrogant/stupid enough to not care that xenos presence among his crew might offend the Adeptus Astartes.

 

None of the above mean that battle-brothers of the Adeptus Astartes sent to serve Rogue Traders don't attack xenos in the employ of the Rogue Trader, though. As a whole, the Adeptus Astartes tend to be very puritanical. There have probably been times where a Rogue Trader's tolerance of xenos has caused considerable friction with Adeptus Astartes battle-brothers. This may have resulted in violence (against the xenos and/or Rogue Trader), the abrupt departure of the battle-brothers, or simply friction until the circumstances change (death or departure of one/both parties). In some cases, a Rogue Trader's tolerance of xenos may have caused a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes to dissolve a pact/relationship with the Rogue Trader on the grounds that their tolerance of xenos is heretical (or something like that).

[Dumah]

 

 

Are there certain chapters that specialize in serving on Rogue Trader vessels?

'Specialise' is the wrong term. No Chapter is going to specialise in deploying tiny amounts of Marines to RT fleets. It's ultimately not what Marines are for. That said, the only Chapter I can think of that's been noted as having a long term established relationship with a RT was the Marines Errant (iirc) from FW's Badab books.

 

Adding to this, it's been noted that the Marines Errant have been spotted wielding strange weapons i.e. of possibly Xenos origin. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was a consequence of their relationship with Rogue Traders, who are known to skirt the boundaries of best practices and heresy.

 

Edit: Found this tidbit from Imperial Armour Vol. 9 The Badab War, Part 1 - "The Marines Errant signed a pact with the Rogue Trader house under Sia'hadn Ecale in 390.M38. The two powers combined their resources to explore the Ghoul Stars for more than forty years."

 

And Imperial Armour Vol. 2 describes the Third Company of the Marines Errant accompanying  Rogue Trader Milos Baral on an expedition to the planet Prath-Veil.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Dumah

[CCE1981]

Another source of Space Marines would be from destroyed Chapters. If a Chapter gets annihilated and the very few survivors aren’t enough the Imperium would disband them. The remainder could find themselves in service to a Rogue Trader to find themselves some sort of role.

[Dumah]

Another source of Space Marines would be from destroyed Chapters. If a Chapter gets annihilated and the very few survivors aren’t enough the Imperium would disband them. The remainder could find themselves in service to a Rogue Trader to find themselves some sort of role.

Are there documented cases of this? I'm not doubting the possibility, just genuinely interested in reading about it.

[CCE1981]

I don’t have any, I know I’ve read somewhere about members of broken Chapters joining Inquisitor retinues.

[Brother Tyler]

I don’t have any, I know I’ve read somewhere about members of broken Chapters joining Inquisitor retinues.

There is the famous example of Lexandro D'Arquebus of the Imperial Fists Chapter abandoning his Chapter to serve Inquisitor Jaq Draco (see the Inquisition War trilogy by Ian Watson, I think it may have been in the Harlequin novel).

Other than that, there are the modern "Black Shields" who, bearing no livery, join the Deathwatch. Some of these may be from broken Chapters, but the lore makes it possible that these "Black Shields" have a variety of different origins (some simply abandoning their Chapters in shame, others potentially having been from the Legiones Astartes during the time of the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy).

 

Admittedly, I haven't read many of the other stories about Inquisitors except for the Eisenhorn series, which didn't feature any such Adeptus Astartes.

[Dracos]

Nice trilogy :)

 

In the fog of years past I might have seen that somewhere ;)

 

[Suspicious Blue Mind]

To everyone who contributed to this inquiry thank you!  I was worried that this might get ignored and that no one would respond; but it did generate a lot of responses and thank you.

 

All in all it looks like there a number of choices

Knights Errant

Dark Hunters*

Black Shields*

 

Knights Errant have very specific link to the Rouge Trader House of Ecale. And the fact that they use a lot of xenos tech, indicates they're being on the fringe of the Imperium.  The Dark Hunters have been nearly wiped out, and so also operate in small groups beyond the boarders of the Imperium (in search of the Punishers band of Chaos Marines). Finally, Black Shields who could be from any decimated chapter, and serve on a Rogue Trader.

 

To Lief Bearclaw: About FFG artwork. They're not outside of canon, but reflecting canon.  Ever since Rogue Trader (WH40K 1st edition), the lore has had the Space Marines serving along side xenos on RT ships. It's one of those hold overs that's never changed.

 

To Dumah and Lief Bearclaw: Thanks for the tip on the Knights Errant.

 

Finally to Brother Tyler for the data on the Black Shields and the Ian Watson novels, Yet another set of BL books I need to read! However, it would have never have occurred to me to add a Mos Eisley scene, but I guess I have to now! Actually, Gav Thorpe even does one better in Kill Team; where he has a scene with hundreds of different xenos races at a Tau base. He even has an amphibian of psykers who work for the Tau. No Space Marines though. Or were there?  

 

Suspicious Blue Mind

 

 

[Dumah]

Just a minor quibble: it's Marines Errant, not Knights Errant.

[Suspicious Blue Mind]

Thanks - Error noted. (Got a lot on the stove right now, and juggling WH40K lore on three different WH40k factions.

[Dracos]

There's a faction other than Astartes?  . . .  Heretic ;)

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

How does an Astartes serve with xenos?

Briefly, with terminal results. If FFG did stick that sort of thing in artwork, they really shouldn't have. Any peaceful coexistence between Astartes and xenos should be transitory at best,'barely tolerated allies of convenience' rather than 'shipmates'.

 

Yes, RTs can have xenos in their crews. Yes RTs can have Marines. But both at the same time is highly dubious. Basically RTs are like Inquisitors, an eclectic bunch with very different philosophies, standards and relationships with other institutions. But just like the same Ordo Malleus Inquisitor isn't going to be calling on both Grey Knights and bound Daemons at the same time, a single RT is highly unlikely to have Marines and xenos on staff simultaneously (unless the Marines are actually Renegades, or something weird like that).

 

 

Rogue Traders trade with Xenos despite that being against the point of the Imperium. That's what they're for and its why they're Rogue traders. All Space Marines serving on Rogue trader ships are working with Xenos even if its indirect.

 

Look at any real world xenophobic culture and you'll find that even the most horrible and prejudiced individuals could be hypocrits and have the odd friendship that 'didn't count'.

 

There are no radical rogue traders. Daemonhosts are using chaos against chaos, kroot mercenaries on Rogue trader ships aren't using xenos against xenos, they're an example of trading with xenos in a bigger structure of trading with xenos. If marines wouldn't work with xenos they wouldn't work with rogue traders full stop. Its plausible that plenty of Rogue traders don't trust Xenos enough to let them onto their ships, but what happens to the marines once the guy they're defending gets to his destination and starts being diplomatic with the creatures the marines are supposed to hate?

Edited April 5, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[TiguriusX]

Interesting discussion. Parallels to sanctioned mutants used by the imperium such as the navigator houses.

 

In the ragnar blackmane novels he is disgusted when he first learns how non human navigators are and has to recalibrate what it means to be a space marine serving the emperor before he snaps out of it to resume defending them

[Suspicious Blue Mind]

 

 

 

How does an Astartes serve with xenos?

Briefly, with terminal results. If FFG did stick that sort of thing in artwork, they really shouldn't have. Any peaceful coexistence between Astartes and xenos should be transitory at best,'barely tolerated allies of convenience' rather than 'shipmates'.

 

Yes, RTs can have xenos in their crews. Yes RTs can have Marines. But both at the same time is highly dubious. Basically RTs are like Inquisitors, an eclectic bunch with very different philosophies, standards and relationships with other institutions. But just like the same Ordo Malleus Inquisitor isn't going to be calling on both Grey Knights and bound Daemons at the same time, a single RT is highly unlikely to have Marines and xenos on staff simultaneously (unless the Marines are actually Renegades, or something weird like that).

 

 

Rogue Traders trade with Xenos despite that being against the point of the Imperium. That's what they're for and its why they're Rogue traders. All Space Marines serving on Rogue trader ships are working with Xenos even if its indirect.

 

Look at any real world xenophobic culture and you'll find that even the most horrible and prejudiced individuals could be hypocrits and have the odd friendship that 'didn't count'.

 

There are no radical rogue traders. Daemonhosts are using chaos against chaos, kroot mercenaries on Rogue trader ships aren't using xenos against xenos, they're an example of trading with xenos in a bigger structure of trading with xenos. If marines wouldn't work with xenos they wouldn't work with rogue traders full stop. Its plausible that plenty of Rogue traders don't trust Xenos enough to let them onto their ships, but what happens to the marines once the guy they're defending gets to his destination and starts being diplomatic with the creatures the marines are supposed to hate?

 

 

My thoughts exactly! This lore question sure has gotten more attention that I thought it would. Thanks again for posting to my query!

 

[MegaVolt87]

I find it difficult to believe a rouge trader would seek help from a chapter in the current milllenium if xenos were a permanent part of their forces. That seems like a good way to get front row seats to the orchestra of angry chainswords and other pyrotechnics in the performance.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It depends on the Chapter, though. Even the Imperial Fists, a fairly traditionalist Chapter, have been shown operating as a bodyguard for an envoy sent to treat with the Tau. Outside of fanatics like the Black Templars, Marines don't necessarily operate on the logic of "kill every single xenos as soon as you see it".

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I split the discussion about the extent of a Rogue Trader's authority into a separate discussion in the Agents of the Imperium forum (where we discuss Rogue Traders) here so that this topic can remain focused on the question posed by the OP - how Space Marine Chapters prepare their battle-brothers for service with Rogue Traders that have xenos among their crews.

[Brother Tyler]

Fun fact (discovered in my researches this morning for a reply to the other topic):

 

...each Rogue Trader is entitled to recruit fellow volunteers, and may even be put in command of whole units of Marines from the various Chapters...

The quote itself isn't very clear whether these are composite units of Space Marines from a variety of Chapters or if they are a detachment from a single Chapter. In the example Rogue Trader character given later in the book (Valerius Borodin), we see that a Rogue Trader has been given command of "an entire company of the Legiones Astartes..." That example character goes on to provide for an alternate Rogue Trader to be used, Joff Zuckerman. If the player chooses to use Zuckerman, "the associated Marine characters and squads will ... be Ultramarines..."

 

There is plenty of lore for small units of Space Marines (squads) to be temporarily be seconded to the service of a Rogue Trader, but there is also lore for entire forces. It's quite possible that a small detachment might be berthed on one of the vessels of the Rogue Trader's fleet. It's also quite possible that Adeptus Astartes detachments, especially those of sufficient size, might remain on their own vessels. A small detachment might remain on one of the smaller vessels of the Chapter such as a Cobra. A detachment of company size might remain on a strike cruiser. A larger detachment might use multiple vessels or even a battle barge. We could work through all of the iterations and the "what if's?," but that's probably unnecessary. The point here is that Adeptus Astartes forces seconded in a way that allows for them to remain on their own vessels might require little or no preparation for effectively dealing with any xenos the Rogue Trader might employ.

 

It's interesting that the earlier lore didn't really cover Rogue Traders employing xenos. Rather, their relationship with xenos was generally adversarial - wiping them out or negotiating with them when they had resources that might enrich the Rogue Trader or the Imperium. We've seen sanctioned xenos brought up, and I suspect that the later shift to allowing Rogue Traders to include xenos in their crews was a natural evolution of their mission. In all likelihood, Rogue Traders employ very few xenos among their crews - perhaps a useful individual here and there, or perhaps a few representative members of a species for further study and submission to the Imperium's power structure. And there are likely many Rogue Traders that won't include any xenos among their crews. I don't doubt that Adeptus Astartes forced to tolerate the presence of xenos among a Rogue Trader's crew do so with stiffness and barely disguised hatred, but their obedience to their mandates can override any instinct to slay xenos on sight (as official examples demonstrate).