War Angel Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Now obviously, if you decided to start worshiping chaos gods, your now a traitor/heritic. But what are some other things you could do to knowingly or unknowingly become a heritic? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) Like all politics and religion it's in the "eye of the beholder". Deathwatch use Xenos blade and Blood Angel allying with Necrons are okay depending on the situation. Heck Guilliman owes his "resurrection" to the Eldar. Edited March 31, 2020 by Dracos Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
infyrana Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Not that I'm much of a reader of the novels, I guess if you are a space marine and denounce the emperor, that'd probably be a start. Also anything that goes against the Inquisitors etc ? Go against a fellow legion / chapter astartes in a manner that shows obvious direction differences to your goals and how you achieve them (ie deciding to give aid to those you might be at war with or take a curiosity towards the chaos powers for your own self gain). Unknowingly you could use some tech that's not approved by the Imperium, or become corrupted by gods of chaos (nurgles rot, tainted armour/weaponry), lend a hand to someone that's actually at war with another Imperial chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 (edited) Being a Traitor is different to a Heretic but for most Imperial citizens the 2 things are synonymous. However, either way the line is blurred and dependent on things like victory, perspective, who it is and who opposes it. Guilliman himself considered Primaris to be Heretical and blasphemous yet as he is Imperial Lord Commander and Regent it became Heretical to dispute them. Likewise, Chapters taking up arms against Goge Vandire in the Reign of Blood, including the Imperial Fists and Black Templars, are not considered traitors or heretics though what they did was essentially treason. Edited March 31, 2020 by Captain Idaho Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 As with so many things in the Imperium, the answer is "if it's being said by someone with the authority to make it stick." I mean, one of the old 3.5 era Chaos warbands, can't remember the name, when their fluff was expanded in a White Dwarf article, got declared traitor because they worshipped the Emperor as animal spirits, and a visiting Ecclesiarchy member didn't like that, so declared them heretics. A lone Inquisitor might declare something heretical, but have 5 opposing Inquisitors say it's ok, so the 5 win out. However, if that lone Inquisitor is a Lord Inquisitor that can call on the Red Hunters to give his argument some weight, while the group of 5 are operating on the fringes of the galaxy with nothing backing them up, then they're going to have a hard time convincing anyone. Gamiel 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Look what happened to the Soul Drinkers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 So would killing fellow space Marines because they did something you didn’t like, even though that thing is not bad, make you a traitor, though no one else lives to know that you are a traitor. wammnebu and Dracos 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wammnebu Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 So would killing fellow space Marines because they did something you didn’t like, even though that thing is not bad, make you a traitor, though no one else lives to know that you are a traitor. Yeah, that seems about right. Though who you are is probably just as important as what you did. If your area Sister of Battle and planetary governor accuses a Blood Angel of being a traitor who do you think she will belive? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) Getting declared renegade can happen a multitude of different ways. Get on the wrong side of the Inquisition despite having done nothing wrong and it'll happen faster than you can say Exterminatus. Another example would be the Knights of Blood who barely had control over their Red Thirst which resulted in a lot more civilian and allied casualties than one has already to expect when fighting alongside Blood Angels and their successors as is. They were still loyal and most Blood Angels and Successors didn't accept them getting declared renegade by a non-Marine organisation but they still got cut off from any Imperial support and had to keep their distance to not bring trouble to their brothers or get attacked by some AM or AdMech forces. Basically though, you do something that the Inquisition and/or the High Lords of Terra don't like you risk getting declared Renegade. Marines are known for being largely independent and to throw their balls around with lots of authority but there's a limit to that kind of behaviour. Edited April 1, 2020 by Panzer Sandlemad 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 So would killing fellow space Marines because they did something you didn’t like, even though that thing is not bad, make you a traitor, though no one else lives to know that you are a traitor. Yeah, that seems about right. Though who you are is probably just as important as what you did. If your area Sister of Battle and planetary governor accuses a Blood Angel of being a traitor who do you think she will belive? Cross reference Dark Angels *allegedly* blowing up a Black Templar Strike Cruiser. Wiped out a bunch of BT's. No questions asked. Yet still loyal. Traitor is reneging on your vows to obey the emperor and the imperium. As soon as they stop believing in the Empire and the Emperor, they are traitors. This is different to being Excommunicate, where you may believe in the Imperium, but the Imperium no longer believes in you, c.f. Soul Drinkers, Knights of Blood etc. Panzer 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tychobi Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Only the betrayed can declare a traitor. The fragile egos of the grimdark might get upset about you being nice to the wrong person/thing, having an innovative idea, or disturbing a bureaucrat. Not a particularly high bar of entry to the Imperial traitors club! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) So would killing fellow space Marines because they did something you didn’t like, even though that thing is not bad, make you a traitor, though no one else lives to know that you are a traitor. Even that isn't necessarily enough. Look at the Euxcine Incident, where you had fighting between the Doom Warriors and the Inceptors. It was restricted warfare over a matter of honour but it wasn't enough to get both of them declared traitor, just to have the Minotaurs sent by the high lords to crack their heads together. There's more examples you could find but in short there is a range of circumstances where astartes kill other astartes without it dialling up to declaring people as traitors. Depends largely on scale, the wider politics of the situation and if a chapter has actually turned on the imperium. That said you don't necessarily need some grand proclamation from the chapter. The Night Reapers chapter got in trouble for carrying out exterminatus on a shrine world they believed couldn't be saved from an oncoming chaos horde. The Ecclesiarchy disagreed and caused such a political fuss with the high lords that the chapter was vocally censured and sent on punishment duty on the fringes of segmentum pacificus. Communication was lost but then when they were linked to the destruction of a rogue trader fleet, they were declared excommunicate traitoris. There was no evidence of the Night Reapers spitting on their oaths or turning against their duty - a lot of rogue traders sail pretty close to the wind when it comes to dodgy behaviour themselves - but the accumulated weight of their actions was enough to get them the boot. I'm pretty sure other, better known chapters have done worse (and the Night Reapers did end up using warp-based xenotech and turning to chaos) but the circumstances of their being declared traitor show that they had the benefit of the doubt pulled back largely because they made powerful enemies. Another example would be the Knights of Blood who barely had control over their Red Thirst which resulted in a lot more civilian and allied casualties than one has already to expect when fighting alongside Blood Angels and their successors as is. They were still loyal and most Blood Angels and Successors didn't accept them getting declared renegade by a non-Marine organisation but they still got cut off from any Imperial support and had to keep their distance to not bring trouble to their brothers or get attacked by some AM or AdMech forces. It's also clearly a spectrum. The Knights of Blood probably are worse than the Flesh Tearers but it's hard to say how much worse. They got declared traitors and the Flesh Tearers didn't. Maybe they killed too many allies, maybe they killed some high profile allies, maybe their violent excesses simply got more and more widespread attention among the high lords, but I suspect it wasn't a hard and fast line, just a combination of circumstances. Edited April 1, 2020 by Sandlemad Panzer and Gamiel 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Only the betrayed can declare a traitor. The fragile egos of the grimdark might get upset about you being nice to the wrong person/thing, having an innovative idea, or disturbing a bureaucrat. Not a particularly high bar of entry to the Imperial traitors club! Indeed, thinking of the Celesial Lions. Not traiors, but persecuted as such. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 Ok, let me rephrase. What makes you a heretic, even though you might not be caught. Thus you got away with it, and continue to look and be treated like a loyalist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Heretic = Religion , Traitor = Politics ? Not worshipping the Emperor makes you a Heretic, doesn’t make you a Traitor necessarily. Dumah 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrified Templar Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Well for Space Marines that's a hard distinction to make. Heresy in this case would be something that contradicts an essential element of the Imperial Creed but the problem is that in that light almost all Space Marines (except Black Templars I guess) would be heretical since they deny the divinity of the emperor and not to mention that Space Marines have their own unique cults and rites that are recognized/tolerated by the Ecclesiarchy. As for something that makes them heretical but not something that they could get caught for? Introducing xenos elements for procedures in gene-seed cultivation, encouraging and using psychic methods that are deemed impure and tainted, and wielding chaos tainted artifacts would be some examples I guess, the caveat is that these methods would need to be used for the greater goal of safeguarding the Imperium even though the Imperium would regard those methods as being abhorrent and against everything the Imperium stands for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5499833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 Heretic = Religion , Traitor = Politics ? Not worshipping the Emperor makes you a Heretic, doesn’t make you a Traitor necessarily. Except its not mandatory for SM to worship the Emperor as a god, they are only heretics when they embrace the pantheon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5500446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 Heretic = Religion , Traitor = Politics ? Not worshipping the Emperor makes you a Heretic, doesn’t make you a Traitor necessarily. Except its not mandatory for SM to worship the Emperor as a god, they are only heretics when they embrace the pantheon. Again, not necessarily. It depends on who's making the accusations against who. The Steel Cobras got declared heretical by an influential Cardinal because they worshiped the Emperor as an animal totem, and they only subsequently turned to Chaos. You've also got the numerous attempts by various Ecclesiarchal forces to declare the Space Wolves heretics because of their beliefs, despite still venerating the Emperor-as-Allfather. However, the political clout and influence of the Space Wolves has meant these charges have never stuck. Declaring a minor Chapter heretical? Not too difficult, so long as you're not a nobody yourself. Getting a First Founding Chapter declared heretical? Boy, you're gonna struggle to get that to stick. Gamiel 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5500463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 (edited) Heretic is a term used by people who worship the Emperor for others who did something they think offends the Emperor or his great plans. Usually also results in being a traitor, but not necessarily. Plenty AdMech and Inquisition members are considered heretics strictly speaking but they aren't traitors. Traitor on the other hand is a term used by more sober people and can be applied in more broad strokes. Turning a blind eye to something you should try to stop or report? Being unnecessarily brutal to civilians and other allies? Leaving your post to pursue your own goals which results in your allies suffering crippling casualties that make them fail their mission/deployment/whatever? Makes you a traitor but not necessarily a heretic. (yes, according to the last one Dark Angels are traitors in many stories but GW is VERY unimaginative with their storytelling and keeps handwaving it) Edited April 3, 2020 by Panzer Dumah 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5500587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted April 3, 2020 Author Share Posted April 3, 2020 Thanks panzer I think that clears it up nicely. (Didn’t your name have an S in it somewhere?) What do you mean at the end about GW hand waving it. In this context, what is “it”? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5500929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 Thanks panzer I think that clears it up nicely. (Didn’t your name have an S in it somewhere?) What do you mean at the end about GW hand waving it. In this context, what is “it”? Well GWs go to story for Dark Angels is "and thent hey abandoned their allies to do whatever" and apparently everyone is fine with it. ^^ And yeah I used to have my initials infront of the name because "Panzer" was already taken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5500932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 As with so many things in the Imperium, the answer is "if it's being said by someone with the authority to make it stick." I mean, one of the old 3.5 era Chaos warbands, can't remember the name, when their fluff was expanded in a White Dwarf article, got declared traitor because they worshipped the Emperor as animal spirits, and a visiting Ecclesiarchy member didn't like that, so declared them heretics. A lone Inquisitor might declare something heretical, but have 5 opposing Inquisitors say it's ok, so the 5 win out. However, if that lone Inquisitor is a Lord Inquisitor that can call on the Red Hunters to give his argument some weight, while the group of 5 are operating on the fringes of the galaxy with nothing backing them up, then they're going to have a hard time convincing anyone. Steel Cobras Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362944-what-constitutes-as-%E2%80%9Ctraitor%E2%80%9D/#findComment-5500936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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