Question about Auras affecting models vs units

[ValourousHeart]

I'm having a little difficulty understanding when certain Auras affects models vs when they affect units.

 

In the Dark Angels codex the rules were written with either the word unit or model and didn't complicate it by using both words in the same rule.

 

Azreal - Chapter Master rule says units.  Lion Helm rule says models.  EASY

Belial - one rule is DA units, the other is DW units. Again easy

Sammie - Same as Belial.

Master - Says DA units.

Lieutenants - Says DA units.

 

In PA: Ritual of the Damned the master and lieutenants rules were reworded to match C:SM.

 

Master in Phobos - Rites of Battle says "Models in DA units whilst their unit is within 6 inches of this model."

Lieutenants in Phobos - Tactical Precision says "Models in DA units whilst their unit is within 6 inches of this model."

 

Now both of these rules use the word model once and the word unit twice when talking about the effected unit, which seems to give an emphasis on unit.  Which lines up with how the rules worked in C:DA.

 

Now other rules in Ritual of the Damned tended to follow the C:DA pattern of only including either the word Model or Unit.

Shoot and Fade only uses the word unit.

Pennant of Remembrance only uses the word model.

 

Which leads me to my questions.

 

What happens when a rule uses both words (Unit and Model) an equal number of times?  Meaning there isn't the emphasis of repetition like we had with the phobos characters.

 

Litany of Faith - Is it unit or models? If you fail the 5+, do you have to pull a model from within 6 inches of the chaplain or can you pull any model from the unit?  If you already have a wounded model in the unit, do you have to measure the 6 inches from the chaplain to that wounded model or just to the unit?

 

Tactically Flexible - Looks like the unit has to be within 6 inches of the warlord, but is it only one model from the unit that gets to use a different doctrine, only models within 6 inches of the warlord or any model within the unit as long as the unit is within 6 inches of the warlord?

[Berzul]

I don't see this is as an issue of repetition or emphasis at all.

 

Instructions are clear, although lengthily worded.

 

Check if the UNIT is in range of the aura.

Then, each MODEL in that UNIT are affected by the aura.

 

It is just a more long winded way of saying, "Units within 6" of this model get <benefit>".

 

Legally, the application of the text to the letter of it, per its wording, allows no other interpretation in my estimation.

[jbaeza94]

I second berzul

[ValourousHeart]

So would that also apply to impeccable mobility, because I've been told that is models not unit.

I ask because it appears to read the same as Litany of Faith.

[jbaeza94]

"Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army"

 

It applies to models in rw units, not rw units. It says while they (they being the models in rw units) are within 6" etc...

 

 

"when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model"

 

For litany of faith the wording is different, it applies to a model that exist within a unit that is within 6".

Edited April 2, 2020 by jbaeza94

[shabbadoo]

"Unit" is the general term, as a "unit' may be made up of one or more models. When a unit consists of one model, the terms "unit" and "model" are synonymous. When a unit may consist of more than one model, the term model(s) is often used to provide further clarity to a rule.

 

Some rules apply to all models of a unit if any member of the unit is simply within range. For something like a morale affecting ability, if any member of unit is within range then the effect applies to the unit as a whole. Other abilities only affect models that are individually within range, and so an effect like a force bubble will only affect models individually within a unit that are actually in range of the effect.  Possibly confusing, but examples illustrate why we want both versions.

 

With regard to Impeccable Mobility, imagine you have a unit of six Ravenwing Bikes near your Warlord. The trait will only affect those models that are actually within 6" of the Warlord. If three of the bikes are not within 6", they won't gain the benefit of the trait, while the three that are within 6" will. This is comparable to the second example above.

 

Impeccable Mobility would make for a good FAQ though, just to see if it should be working this way, as the wording of the rule is particularly awful. Not as if GW couldn't standardize how they phrase either option. Imagine that.

 

Litanies of Battle:

 

1. Litany of Faith: unit effect

2. Catechism of Fire: unit effect

3. Exhortation of Rage: unit effect

4. Mantra of Strength: Chaplain effect

5. Recitation of Focus: unit effect

6. Canticle of Hate: unit effect

 

7. Litany of Hate: unit effect

Edited April 2, 2020 by shabbadoo

[ValourousHeart]

"Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army"

 

It applies to models in rw units, not rw units. It says while they (they being the models in rw units) are within 6" etc...

 

 

"when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model"

 

For litany of faith the wording is different, it applies to a model that exist within a unit that is within 6".

 

I get that is how people are playing it.

I just don't get how they got there logically.

 

"In a friendly DA unit" and "in RW units" appear to just identify which units qualify.

Both rules address model(s) in unit(s) which would seem to indicate that they both would fall the same way.

 

Not trying to argue, earnestly trying to understand the logical interpretation.

[Berzul]

 

"Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army"

 

It applies to models in rw units, not rw units. It says while they (they being the models in rw units) are within 6" etc...

 

 

"when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model"

 

For litany of faith the wording is different, it applies to a model that exist within a unit that is within 6".

 

I get that is how people are playing it.

I just don't get how they got there logically.

 

"In a friendly DA unit" and "in RW units" appear to just identify which units qualify.

Both rules address model(s) in unit(s) which would seem to indicate that they both would fall the same way.

 

Not trying to argue, earnestly trying to understand the logical interpretation.

 

 

Again, I find this to be just unnecessary long wording by GW.

 

"Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army"

 

Is the model within 6" of your warlord?

If yes, then, is the model part of a Ravenwing Unit?

If yes, then the effect applies.

 

So, it is model by model. The prerequisite is twofold. Be within 6", and be part of a Ravenwing Unit. It could have just been "Models with the <Ravenwing> Keyword within 6" of your Warlord", but GW wanted to make it harder for us all.

 

 

"when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model"

 

Is there a model within a friendly Dark Angels Unit?

If so, then, is that unit within 6" of the aura casting model?

If yes, then the model is affected by the aura.

 

It could simply have been worded as "Units within 6" of this model".

 

They key point here is wording. If you say that a model from a unit that is within 6" of the caster, then that means you first check if the caster has a unit within 6" and then apply the effect to the models inside the unit.

 

Had the wording been for "When a model within 6" of this model, and which is a part of a friendly Dark Angels Unit", or something to that effect, then you'd have to check if there is a friendly dark angels unit, then check for models of that unit within 6" of the caster. A totally different way of going about it.

If so,

[jbaeza94]

 

 

"Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army"

 

It applies to models in rw units, not rw units. It says while they (they being the models in rw units) are within 6" etc...

 

 

"when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model"

 

For litany of faith the wording is different, it applies to a model that exist within a unit that is within 6".

I get that is how people are playing it.

I just don't get how they got there logically.

 

"In a friendly DA unit" and "in RW units" appear to just identify which units qualify.

Both rules address model(s) in unit(s) which would seem to indicate that they both would fall the same way.

 

Not trying to argue, earnestly trying to understand the logical interpretation.

You're focusing on too small of a part, you need to take the whole thing to get the right context.

 

The words before and after matter alot. Let's breaks it down.

 

Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army

 

Who is they? This is the most important part. They is models in ravenwing units from my army, so the actual ravenwing models, not the ravenwing units. So let's replace they with the previous.

 

Whilst ravenwing models are within 6" of this warlord, they do not suffer etc etc

 

Next one. This one is worded much better and very straightforward

 

when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model

 

A model that exist inside of a unit of DA, with said unit that exists within 6". Really, you cant break it down further. But I dont think this is the one that has you hung up.

[ValourousHeart]

I really appreciate the responses both of you have given.

 

Berzul, it sounds like the answer comes from the questions asked, as opposed to the statements in the text.

So if we flip those questions around will we get the same answers as before or does the questions presupposes the answer?

 

 

"Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army"

 

Is there a model within a Ravenwing Unit?

If so, then, is that unit within 6" of the aura casting model?

 

"when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model"

 

Is the model within 6" of your Chaplain?

If yes, then, is the model part of a Friendly Dark Angels Unit?

It appears that the questions asked have influence on how the statement is read.

 

Jbaeza94, it seems that one point you are making is which word is closer to the phrase "within 6 inches".

 

 

The words before and after matter alot.

Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army

when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model

 

Both "in Ravenwing units" and "in a friendly Dark Angels unit" are prepositional phrases.

They simply add more information about the subject of the sentence.

A key aspect about preposition phrases is that they can be removed from a sentence without changing the sentence from a grammatical perspective.

 

Whilst they are within 6" of this worlord, models from your army...

When a model within 6" of this model...

 

You might say that those phrases define which units are affected, but that isn't the question.

Which units are the only thing that nobody is questioning.

The question is if it is units or models, and in that context removal of the prepositional phrase should not affect the meaning of the sentence.

 

And with the removal of the prepositional phrase both sentences appear to have the same format and only contain the word model.

 

 

Who is they? This is the most important part. They is models in ravenwing units from my army, so the actual ravenwing models, not the ravenwing units. So let's replace they with the previous.

 

This is probably the most compelling argument.

But it is simply asking the question who is the subject of this sentence.

When asked that same question about the Litany you get the same answer... the subject is model, not friendly Dark Angels unit.

 

As I said before, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to find a consistent set of arguments for one rule that doesn't contradict themselves when applied to the other rule.

[jbaeza94]

What you fail to see is that the 2 auras have different conditions.

 

One requires <a model from a unit type> to be within the range, while the other requires <a model> that is <in a unit within 6">

 

Dark angels unit is not a prepositional phrase that can be removed, it is integral to reading the rule. It is a second condition that must be met. Ravenwing unit can be removed and the meaning of the aura remains the same.

 

The same can be said about tactically flexible, which is the same as the litany.

 

when resolving an attack made by a model in a friendly RAVENWING unit within 6" of this Warlord

 

An attack, made by a model, that belongs to a unit within 6" of the warlord. You apply this rule to all models in the unit because they all meet the requirements. They like to specify when its specifically, typically 1 and only one, or choose one model

 

These are not contradictory statements, and the rule isnt being applied different. They each have different requirements and prerequisites.

Edited April 2, 2020 by jbaeza94

[BluejayJunior]

You can't remove words from a rule and expect figure out how it works. Even if they are prepositional phrases. "within 6 inches" is also a prepositional phrase, but it is vital to the rule. If you removed the prepositional phrases, the rules would have no meaning. It would change things from "models within 6" can reroll hit rolls of one" to "models can reroll hit rolls".

Jbaeza94 and Berzul have both very clearly explained how the rules work and how you can understand them from the wording of the rule. There isn't some formula about how many times the rule says unit/model or how close the word is to the effect. You have to read the whole rule in its context to be able to understand it. 

[ValourousHeart]

You can't remove words from a rule and expect figure out how it works. Even if they are prepositional phrases. "within 6 inches" is also a prepositional phrase, but it is vital to the rule. If you removed the prepositional phrases, the rules would have no meaning. It would change things from "models within 6" can reroll hit rolls of one" to "models can reroll hit rolls".

Jbaeza94 and Berzul have both very clearly explained how the rules work and how you can understand them from the wording of the rule. There isn't some formula about how many times the rule says unit/model or how close the word is to the effect. You have to read the whole rule in its context to be able to understand it. 

 

"Within 6 inches" really isn't as vital as you might think.  

It could easily be replaced with "Within range".

If thing 1 is within range of thing 2 then event 1 happens.

 

In all 3 of these rules thing 2 is clearly the character with the aura.

Event 1 is clearly the action of the rule.

And within range for these 3 specific rules is within 6 inches.

 

My question is what is Thing 1?

All 3 rules say some variation of "Model in Unit."

So does "Model in Unit" mean model, or does it mean unit?

 

According to you 3 we have the following.

• Litany of Faith - Model in Unit means unit.
• Tactically Flexible - Model in Unit means unit.
• Impeccable Mobility - Model in Unit means model.

 

That is the contradiction I'm referring to.

 

My reasoning for removing the prepositional phrases was never as a method to interpret the rule... It is simply a method of reading comprehension.

That is because multiple prepositional phrases in a sentence can confuse the coherency of the thought expressed in the sentence.

Reading the sentence without the prepositional phrases will allow you to get to the core of the thought expressed in the sentence.

The prepositional phrases modify the object, they don't replace the object, and because of that they won't change the core thought expressed.

 

Example 1 - Karen from accounting invited you to dinner.

From accounting just makes a distinction of which Karen we are talking about.

It does not change the fact that the core thought of the sentence is that Karen invited you to dinner.

 

My intention was never to apply the rule in a game without those prepositional phrases.

It was to eliminate any confusion that might arise from the sentence referring to both the unit and the model, and thus muddying the distinction between which is under the affect.

 

Personally I preferred the way the rules were written in C:DA because they only included one of the 2 words, so it was without question which it applied to.

Edited April 3, 2020 by ValourousHeart

[Berzul]

I think you are mistaken here.

 

The phrase "Model in unit" does not apply in a vacuum.

 

Model in unit, means a model in one unit.

Model in a <keyword> unit, means a model in a unit that has the <keyword>

Model in X", means a model in X" of the source of the effect

Model in a unit in X", means a model in a unit that has at least one model at least partially within X" of the source of the effect

 

and so on and so forth

 

You need the read the rule as a whole, even if they CAN be phrased more efficiently. Reducing the number of words to convey the same rule, does not equal to taking off parts of the rule and expecting it to work, still.

 

So, again:

 

CASE 1: "Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army"

 

The meaning is absolutely clear.

 

Is there a model?

If yes, is it a model that is within 6" of the warlord?
If yes, is it a model that belongs to a unit that has the Ravenwing Keyword?

If yes, the aura applies.

 

CASE 2: "when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model"

 

Is there a model?

If yes, is that model in a unit that is within 6" of the source of the effect?

If yes, the aura applies

 

I do believe, wholeheartedly , that it is as simple as that. Rules do not read as confusing.

 

 

Now you COULD change the wording of each to make them simpler.

 

"Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army" could very well be phrased as "Ravenwing models within 6" of this warlord"

 

And,

 

"when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model" could very well be phrased as "Friendly Dark Angels Units within 6" of this model".

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Berzul

[ValourousHeart]

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

So you are ignoring the word MODEL in Litany of Faith, and ignoring the word UNIT in Impeccable Mobility.

 

I appreciate your help on this.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

"Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in RAVENWING units from your army"

 

It applies to models in rw units, not rw units. It says while they (they being the models in rw units) are within 6" etc...

 

 

"when a model in a friendly DARK ANGELS unit within 6" of this model"

 

For litany of faith the wording is different, it applies to a model that exist within a unit that is within 6".

 

I get that is how people are playing it.

I just don't get how they got there logically.

 

"In a friendly DA unit" and "in RW units" appear to just identify which units qualify.

Both rules address model(s) in unit(s) which would seem to indicate that they both would fall the same way.

 

Not trying to argue, earnestly trying to understand the logical interpretation.

 

 

I think the basic issue here is that models don't have KEYWORDS, datasheets do (which aren't the same thing as units but are where you find a unit's rules).

 

So there's no such thing as a RAVENWING model or a DARK ANGELS model, only Ravenwing

and Dark Angels models. Logically they can and sometime do just ignored that and write the rules as though models had keywords and people would understand but someone decided that wasn't specific enough so came up with the 'models in KEYWORD units' phrase.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[Berzul]

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

So you are ignoring the word MODEL in Litany of Faith, and ignoring the word UNIT in Impeccable Mobility.

 

I appreciate your help on this.

We are not.

 

For my part, I am only reading the rule, as a whole and in sequence, and applying it.

 

 

Again, the rule is:

 

LITANY OF FAITH

If this litany is inspiring, then when a model in a friendly <Chapter> unit within 6" of this model would lose a wound as a result of a mortal wound, roll one D6; on a 5+ that wound is not lost. This is not cumulative with any similar rules.

 

Let's break it appart.

 

(1) If this litany is inspiring, then

 

Ok, so you first need the Chaplain to successfully recite the litany.

 

(2) when a model

 

Ok, so, this is a model by model basis rule, which means you will have to check for each model that fits the criteria for the rest of the rule.

 

(3) in a friendly <Chapter> unit within 6" of this model

 

Ok so, you take a model and check whether or not it is part of a friendly Dark Angels unit that is within 6" of the Chaplain. Or, in other words, you take a unit within 6" of the Chaplain, check if it is a friendly Dark Angels unit, and then check for each model in the unit to apply the effect to.

 

(4) would lose a wound as a result of a mortal wound, roll one D6; on a 5+ that wound is not lost.

 

Apply this effect to each of those models. That is, each MODEL in a friendly Dark Angels UNIT which is within 6" of the Chaplain.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Berzul

[ValourousHeart]

Thank you guys I think I got it now.

 

 

I think the basic issue here is that models don't have KEYWORDS, datasheets do (which aren't the same thing as units but are where you find a unit's rules).

So there's no such thing as a RAVENWING model or a DARK ANGELS model, only Ravenwing

and Dark Angels models. Logically they can and sometime do just ignored that and write the rules as though models had keywords and people would understand but someone decided that wasn't specific enough so came up with the 'models in KEYWORD units' phrase.

 

Model doesn't need a keyword.  On page 176 of the BRB under the heading UNIT, a unit is defined as containing one or more models.  It is such a basic building block of the game that everything would get that keyword at which point it would be useless as an identifier.

 

 

Ok, so, this is a model by model basis rule, which means you will have to check for each model that fits the criteria for the rest of the rule.

 

This makes sense.  All 3 are a model by model basis.

 

The different phrases modify the range of effect that an aura has and who is affected.

• Within just requires that at least one member of the unit be in range for the entire unit to get the affect. (Widest Range)
• Wholly Within requires all members of the unit to be in range for any to get the affect. (Narrowest Range)
• A Model in a Unit Within means that only the models in range get the affect, the rest of the unit outside of that range are not affected. (Middle Range)

 

So when a unit under Litany of Faith suffers a Mortal Wound... If the model that you want to apply the MW to is within range of the Chaplain then you get the benefit of the Litany. 

But you may want to pull a model that is out of range, because the models in range have upgrades you don't want to risk at this time.

[Berzul]

Thank you guys I think I got it now.

 

 

I think the basic issue here is that models don't have KEYWORDS, datasheets do (which aren't the same thing as units but are where you find a unit's rules).

So there's no such thing as a RAVENWING model or a DARK ANGELS model, only Ravenwing

and Dark Angels models. Logically they can and sometime do just ignored that and write the rules as though models had keywords and people would understand but someone decided that wasn't specific enough so came up with the 'models in KEYWORD units' phrase.

 

Model doesn't need a keyword.  On page 176 of the BRB under the heading UNIT, a unit is defined as containing one or more models.  It is such a basic building block of the game that everything would get that keyword at which point it would be useless as an identifier.

 

 

Ok, so, this is a model by model basis rule, which means you will have to check for each model that fits the criteria for the rest of the rule.

 

This makes sense.  All 3 are a model by model basis.

 

The different phrases modify the range of effect that an aura has and who is affected.

• Within just requires that at least one member of the unit be in range for the entire unit to get the affect. (Widest Range)
• Wholly Within requires all members of the unit to be in range for any to get the affect. (Narrowest Range)
• A Model in a Unit Within means that only the models in range get the affect, the rest of the unit outside of that range are not affected. (Middle Range)

 

So when a unit under Litany of Faith suffers a Mortal Wound... If the model that you want to apply the MW to is within range of the Chaplain then you get the benefit of the Litany. 

But you may want to pull a model that is out of range, because the models in range have upgrades you don't want to risk at this time.

You have misunderstood me.

 

It is Model by Model, in the sense that the rule mandates you check on the particular model.

 

BUT, the RANGE is measured from the unit.

 

You first check if there is a model being hit by a mortal wound.

Then you check if the model is part of a friendly Dark Angels unit.

Then you check if that unit is in range of the aura. That is, if the unit has at least one model partially within 6" of the chaplain.

 

If there is unit with at least one model partially within the aura of the chaplain, that unit is a friendly Dark Angels Unit, and that unit has a model that is receiving a mortal wound, then the 5+++ applies.

 

That is what the rule as written states.

 

Unless we get an errata or clarification that states otherwise, and explains a different and special interpretation to the rule, then the text, as written, does not require the MODEL to be within 6", only for the MODEL to be a part of a friendly Dark Angels UNIT that is within 6" of the chaplain.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Berzul

[Skywrath]

I honestly don't understand why we are arguing something so pedantic when the rules are pretty clear. Seems to me that GW are being lazy with their wording and relying on common sense of the person to interpret it.

 

If we somehow still don't understand this, then I recommend the following:

 

By any logic models imply a plural form. Model imply a singular form. Squad imply plural. So replace those keywords (models, unit, model, squad) with either plural or singular (with respect to their bearing). Seeing how the wording seems to have a stronger weighting towards the one that was used at the start of the sentence, then use that as the "theme" (if you will) of the sentence. Now while grammatically my suggestion doesn't make any sense, the idea is that you don't have to distinguish between one or the other.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Knight-Master Skywrath

[Berzul]

Well, it IS fun to discuss these topics, after all :D Edited April 6, 2020 by Berzul

[ValourousHeart]

Berzul,

 

I think I see where  we are missing each other in this discussion.

Lets put out an example and apply it to the rules.

 

We have a Ravenwing Land Speeder Squadron with 5 models, so it counts as a Friendly DA unit.

We also a Chaplain with Litany of Faith active.

 

2 Land Speeders in the squadron are less than 6" from the Chaplain.

The 3 other speeders are more than 6" from the Chaplain.

And just for clarity lets say that the 2 speeders have MM and the 3 speeders have HB.

If the Speeder Squadron suffers a MW, we get to benefit from the Litany of Faith.

I think we both agree with everything up to this point.

 

Where we differ is when that roll is failed.

It is my understanding is that I have to put the wound on one of the 2 speeders with MM, and not one of the 3 with HB.

 

And if I'm understanding you correctly you think we can apply that MW to any model in that squad as long as a single model from the squad is within 6" of the Chaplain.

 

Your perspective doesn't require addressing the situation where there is already a wounded model in the squad, but my perspective would require that.

[Berzul]

Well, that is simple.

 

Is there a model wounded already?

 

Per the regular rules, the mortal wound MUST apply to that model.

 

And none of this has any bearing on whether the litany applies or not. The litany states that it applies to a MODEL that is part of a UNIT that is within 6" of the Chaplain. It does not set forth the requirement for the MODEL to have to be within 6" of the Chaplain. Only for the MODEL to be a part of a UNIT that is within 6" of the Chaplain.

 

So, does this allow you to stretch out your units while keeping one guy within 6" of the chaplain, to start granting 5+++ saves to those on the far end of the unit?

 

RAW state that yes. You can.

 

You would have to put the wound on the speeder already wounded (or on any speeder, should none of them be wounded). And, any speeder in the unit, them being a model in the unit, would get the benefit of the 5+++.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Berzul

[Berzul]

For clarity, this would apply in the same mechanical sense as the aura of a Master or a Lieutenant.

 

Is the unit within reach? If so, then yes. All models in the unit get the effect.

 

Could it have been worded like these other auras? Most definitely.

Was it worded in an overly complicated way? Absolutely.

Is the rule given to abuse? Certainly.

But, is the rule written to work in any other way? No.

 

Maybe GW meant for the litany to apply to only models within 6", and not models in units within 6", but that will only come to be through an errata, designer note, or clarification. As it stands, the text is pretty clear. Badly written, as it could have been set forth in a much better way, but it is not confusing at all.

 

Also, remember that you FIRST allocate the wound, and THEN roll saves and other rules.

So, you still need to determine where the wound will land, before rolling the 5+++.
Since the entire unit has the ability, it has no effect in practice to roll before or after deciding where to apply the wound, but the normal process would be thus.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Berzul

[ValourousHeart]

Well, it IS fun to discuss these topics, after all

Yes I am enjoying this too.  Being locked up at home discussions like this are one of the few social interaction still open to us.

 

By any logic models imply a plural form. Model imply a singular form. Squad imply plural. So replace those keywords (models, unit, model, squad) with either plural or singular (with respect to their bearing). Seeing how the wording seems to have a stronger weighting towards the one that was used at the start of the sentence, then use that as the "theme" (if you will) of the sentence. Now while grammatically my suggestion doesn't make any sense, the idea is that you don't have to distinguish between one or the other.

 

You do have to distinguish between model and unit.  GW said as much in one of their FAQs.

 

Certainly most rules are written to affect multiple units with at least one model within range of the model providing the aura.

But there are other rules that aren't written that way.

 

Take the second Litany on that page... Catechism of Fire.

Just one model in the squad has to be within 6" of the Chaplain for the entire unit to gain the affect.

However to apply the benefit, the model has to target the closest unit to THAT model.

Which means that you will often have to split fire in order for every squad member to get the benefit.

If you have the entire unit target a single unit you may find that not every model in the squad targeted the closest unit on a by model basis.