Force Building in 8th: a Consideration for You, Leader!

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello all.

 

Two battalions is a thought I've had since 8th, just to see the minimums of Troops choices fleshed out as the base from Grey Mage remains, 1 Troops choice per 500 points, and it still works in 8th.

 

In said 8th, how and where those Troops choices go is going to be important, as it will directly control access to what else one can squeeze in.

 

To play back and forth a little bit...

 

Two Battations, pros, cons:

Pro:

- LOTS of options, provides 10 CP, BF is great with this one

- 0 to 2 more HQ's

- 0 to 6 more Troops

- 0 to 12 Elites, all possible

- 0 to 6 Fast Attack

- 0 to 6 Heavy Support

- 0 to 4 Fliers

 

Con:

- 4 HQ, 6 Troops, MINIMUM - Cheap or Expensive? What roles? What missions? What do each do? Redundancy/ies?

- Patrol formations at times may work better, but provide no bonus CP

- Look for Vanguard, Spearhead, and Flyer formations to try to gain some CP?

 

Mid:

- Vanguard and Spearhead may just be better, but...

- +3 CP per Battalion is nothing to sneeze at; the tax however may be too hard to meet, unless one wants/needs to run MSU, which can be good, larger units just need to be better*

 

= User's choice. If the mission calls for you to use Two Battalions as a deployment base, go for it? Test it out, the benefit of Battalions when compared to the minimums for a Brigade cannot be understated: the points sink needed for ONE Brigade, let alone MORE, is just insane in a regular game!

 

1 - I was/am still one of those that advocate that, when the need arises and it can be met, Two Battalions may, MAY, be a good to great thing!

2 - To say it bluntly, well, type it, Battalions are no different in scope and number to any force for any game: get the most mileage out for your army. If it's LOTS of CP's, and the controlling player will be aided by having two Battalions, go for it if it can work for you?

3 - Just make sure you remember all of your rules!

4 - As PA: 6 is going to enliven non Primaris models for a while, please take into account that...

 

4 HQ's

6 Troops

Minumum.

 

The most mileage you as a player can get ouf of that nets you the access to the Pro list of options.

 

Do so, and you have a LOT of FOC slots to play with, which will only be limited by your points total and points pinching.

Do not, if it is of no benefit to you.

Food for thought, I hope.

 

---

 

Brigaes... wow...

 

So, Brigades are another option to Dual Battalions, however the minimums are different:

 

MUST HAVE:

3 HQ

6 Troops

3 Elites

3 Fast Attack

3 Heavy Support

 

Gain Access To:

0 to 3 more HQs

0 to 6 more Troops

0 to 5 more Elites

0 to 2 more Fast Attack

0 to 2 more Heavy Support

0 to 2 Fliers total

 

While that's not apparently much at first, to some, for a PA SM player, that's a LOT of points to have to sink into minimum requirements. The trade off? You will get +2 CP overall; that's about it; however, for CP starved and hungry SW's players, that may be a need to consider.

 

So, the question is, then, which is better for you?

Honestly? I don't have Battlescribe up and running right now, the Data Repositories are not downloading properly just yet.

 

Still, shall we see some lists, please?

I shall post one when able, but I figure, that if the minimum of Two Battalions works better for you, why not give it a whirl? The player can, unless ITC or other tournament rules say otherwise, have up to one more Detachment, if needed. Which can work well, if the list is tight and strong, points wise.

 

*This is a thread all its own, sadly.

 

Constructive feedback, criticism, and above all, Lists, please?

[TiguriusX]

Most of the armies I have theory crafted

before the SW update were a single battalion so I didn't have to pay the troop tax.

 

Our troops sucked. The main reason is we don't have cheap scouts for board control.

 

However...we have 2 items of synergy that have me leaning double battalions for SW now.

 

1) We have amazing stratagems we will want to use now. This includes more relics and a 2nd WL trait (I have 2 CP set aside as automatic for this).

 

My must have relics are armor of russ and morkai bolts

 

If we want a 3rd relic like wulfen stone we have to pay 2CP more so be careful

 

2) Doctrines have made our old grey hunter packs useful again.

 

This means plasma hunters aren't a troop tax to unlock CP...they are a desirable and useful unit you want to add.

[FabulousRex]

I honestly have been looking real long and hard at a Triple Battalion at 2k. Our Troops can be as good as melee specialists in other armies, and we could always use 2 or 3 more jump characters. Drop pods, Impulsors, and Rhinos are the key.

 

Just cant fit proper Wulfen in there, but I run mine naked anyways (old metal Wulfen). Murderfang is looking better than a single THSS Wulfen squad to me anyhow.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Timely thread. I’ve now established a bridgehead in my house(finally set up hobby space in my new basement/house). Before I complete the list I planned last year I want hear this out.

[OgreOnAStick]

From the rules thread, since I am apparently blind.

 

Lets assume we merge and upgrade two battalions into a single brigade. You already have 6 Troops and 4 HQ, which is one extra HQ than you need to fill minimums.

Filling a slot of Elites is 20 points with Servitors or double if you give the squad two heavy bolters. Not that this should be an issue since most of our good units are Elite.

A Fast Attack Slot is worth 15 points for a single Cyberwolf. Just don't expect it to do much other than area denial and dying.

Heavy Support is another slot with good choices for us, ranging from Long Fangs to Mortis Dreadnoughts and a Leviathan. Barebones Eliminators are likely the cheapest choice at 72, alternatively a Hunter to provide a 60" lascannon and T8 11W screening is of comparable price. A Rapier Carrier w/ Quad H.Bolter is only a point more expensive than a Hunter, and only 10 points more with a Launcher for indirect fire-support.

 

So the bare minimum to fill the extras on a Brigade is 321 points, 105 if you only need to fill in FA and Elites or 45 for just FA. Even less if you are just filling in slots you already had useful units in. Is it as point-to-CP efficient as Loyal or Rusty allies? No, but it does keep the doctrines intact while granting extra CP.

 

Triple Battalion, an interesting suggestion. Hmm. Need to mull that one over.

[Gherrick]

 

A Rapier Carrier w/ Quad H.Bolter is only a point more expensive than a Hunter, and only 10 points more with a Launcher for indirect fire-support.

For the same points, I think a whirlwind is just overall better than a rapier w/ launcher, right?

Rapier: 4d3 5/0 D1

Whirlwind: 2d3 7/-1 D2 or for 5 points less 2d6 6/0 D1, depending on what you intend to target.

Considering you get more than twice the wounds and T7 instead of T5, why would we ever pick a rapier?

[Gherrick]

Here's the brigade I posted for C&C in the other thread:

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [115 PL, 14CP, 1,999pts] ++
+ Stratagems +
Trophies of Fenris [-1CP]: Trophies of Fenris - 1 Extra Relic

+ HQ +

Wolf Guard Battle Leader [5 PL, 89pts]: Frag & Krak grenades, Jump Pack, Power fist, Saga of the Beastslayer, Storm bolter, The Armour of Russ
. . Warlord: Warlord

Wolf Priest [6 PL, 101pts]: Crozius arcanum, Frag & Krak grenades, Jump Pack, Power fist, Storm bolter

Wolf Priest [6 PL, 101pts]: Crozius arcanum, Frag & Krak grenades, Jump Pack, Power fist, Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Grey Hunters [4 PL, 60pts]
. . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades
. . 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

Grey Hunters [4 PL, 60pts]
. . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades
. . 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

Grey Hunters [4 PL, 60pts]
. . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades
. . 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]
. . 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. . Incursor Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Occulus bolt carbine, Paired combat blades

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]
. . 4x Incursor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Occulus bolt carbine, 4x Paired combat blades
. . Incursor Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Occulus bolt carbine, Paired combat blades

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auto Bolt Rifle, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher
. . 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. . Intercessor Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades

+ Elites +

Aggressors [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Pack Leader
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Aggressors [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Pack Leader
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Wulfen [11 PL, 198pts]
. . 4x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 4x Storm Shield, 4x Thunder Hammer
. . 4x Wulfen
. . Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

+ Fast Attack +

Cyberwolves [1 PL, 15pts]
. . Cyberwolf: Teeth and claws

Cyberwolves [1 PL, 15pts]
. . Cyberwolf: Teeth and claws

Suppressor Squad [4 PL, 90pts]
. . 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Grav-chute
. . Suppressor Sergeant: Accelerator autocannon, Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Grav-chute

+ Heavy Support +

Long Fangs [10 PL, 167pts]
. . Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Plasma cannon
. . Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Plasma cannon
. . Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Plasma cannon
. . Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Plasma cannon
. . Long Fang Pack Leader: Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades, Plasma gun
. . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Combi-plasma, Frag & Krak grenades, Storm shield

Whirlwind [6 PL, 85pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher

Whirlwind [6 PL, 85pts]: Whirlwind vengeance launcher

+ Flyer +

Stormfang Gunship [15 PL, 305pts]: Helfrost destructor
. . Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
. . Two Twin Multi-Meltas: 2x Twin multi-melta

+ Dedicated Transport +

Drop Pod [5 PL, 65pts]: Storm bolter

[OgreOnAStick]

 

Rapier: 4d3 5/0 D1For the same points, I think a whirlwind is just overall better than a rapier w/ launcher, right?

Whirlwind: 2d3 7/-1 D2 or for 5 points less 2d6 6/0 D1, depending on what you intend to target.

Considering you get more than twice the wounds and T7 instead of T5, why would we ever pick a rapier?

 

Because I am a dum-dum and wrote down the wrong costs for Whirlwind in my notes. Yes, Whirlwind is a viable choice for a slot filler too. 

[Karack Blackstone]

One Bat:

 

2 HQ

3 Troops

 

Two Bat:

 

4 HQ

6 Troops

 

Three Bat, and max at 2k:

 

6 HQ

9 Troops

 

There's reasons for each.

 

And, to type it, if one has cheap enough models on hand, then a Brigade might just be better.

 

However, if you're like me and need models to fill some of those "cheap" unit slots rather than just getting something off the shelf, as it were...

 

 

So here's how I figure this can be checked:

 

1 Brigade

- 12 CP + BF'ged

- 3 HQ

- 6 Troops

- 3 Elites

- 3 FA

- 3 HS

 

2 Battaltions

- 10 CP + BF'ged

- 4 HQ

- 6 Troops

 

While Brigades might be better at CP totals by two, and the difference in points totals is only about 250, it's around 300 for a Brigade versus 2 Battalions, an HQ is around at the cheapest 50 or so, before options.

 

One of the single biggest issues is having models on hand, and right now, no models are shipping currently.

 

So for the time being, this may be useful knowledge worth checking, but also, I don't have any Incursors yet, so I'm stuck paying Troops taxes from BC's and GH's,  and some Intercessors I would need to build at home.

 

 

Either way, it's more that, can that 300+ point task DO Enough to make up for having to pay it to get those +2 CP?

That's the really important part.

 

And apparently why older mods, even those not still mods now, Lord Rag and Val, are asking to see what this list comparison check does to the overall force building options.

 

Edit: properly clarified an idea.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Karack Blackstone

[PeteySödes]

To me it depends on what you wanted to take anyways. I’m always going to fill that 3 Elite slot and frequently would for HS too. Really it’s just the FA that would be the tax.

[Gherrick]

To me it depends on what you wanted to take anyways. I’m always going to fill that 3 Elite slot and frequently would for HS too. Really it’s just the FA that would be the tax.

We have the best FA filler slot around at 15pts for a cyberwolf. For 45pts total, having 3 bodies on the field to act as anti-deepstrike bubbles as well as possible smite shields seems like a fair tax. Granted, if you are in a scenario where points are tallied by units destroyed, that would be an issue.

[Iain_Stormeyes]

 

To me it depends on what you wanted to take anyways. I’m always going to fill that 3 Elite slot and frequently would for HS too. Really it’s just the FA that would be the tax.

We have the best FA filler slot around at 15pts for a cyberwolf. For 45pts total, having 3 bodies on the field to act as anti-deepstrike bubbles as well as possible smite shields seems like a fair tax. Granted, if you are in a scenario where points are tallied by units destroyed, that would be an issue.

 

 

You mean like ITC, the most common and popular tournament format?

[TiguriusX]

 

 

 

 

To me it depends on what you wanted to take anyways. I’m always going to fill that 3 Elite slot and frequently would for HS too. Really it’s just the FA that would be the tax.

We have the best FA filler slot around at 15pts for a cyberwolf. For 45pts total, having 3 bodies on the field to act as anti-deepstrike bubbles as well as possible smite shields seems like a fair tax. Granted, if you are in a scenario where points are tallied by units destroyed, that would be an issue.

You mean like ITC, the most common and popular tournament format?

I used to be vocal about leaving cyber wolves off in ITC.

 

I have changed my opinion since the meta went heavy on artillery with devastator doctrine

 

We wont be getting kill more on turn 1 against those armies regardless.

 

A cyber wolf either (1) wastes an entire firing phase for an artillery piece possibly saving infantry or (2) gets ignored and possibly survives to hold the rear

 

Against armies with no artillery they are even better.