The codex is written poorly (rules clarification Death Comp)

[NemFX]

Been quite awhile, I've been lurking, slowly piecing together a Flesh Tearers army.

 

So, the question is, Death Company can exchange their bolt pistols and chainswords for power weapons.

 

To me, that would include lightning claws, as they are power weapons. Apparently there's a debate about that, because they aren't called Power Claws, in the same way that Power Sword, Power Axe, and Power Fist, are.

 

Settle a bet so I can tear some flesh? :3

[Panzer]

Been quite awhile, I've been lurking, slowly piecing together a Flesh Tearers army.

 

So, the question is, Death Company can exchange their bolt pistols and chainswords for power weapons.

 

To me, that would include lightning claws, as they are power weapons. Apparently there's a debate about that, because they aren't called Power Claws, in the same way that Power Sword, Power Axe, and Power Fist, are.

 

Settle a bet so I can tear some flesh? :3

 

 

It's pretty clear in the Codex. It doesn't say Death Company can exchange their bolt pistols and chainswords for power weapons. It says:

• Any model may replace it's bolt pistol with a bolt gun, hand flamer, inferno pistol, plasma pistol, power axe, power fist, power maul or power sword
• Any model may replace it's chainsword with a power axe, power fist, power maul or power sword
• Any model may replace it's chainsword and bolt pistol with a thunder hammer

 

 

Also if it would say "power weapons" then no Lightning Claws wouldn't be included just like Thunder hammers wouldn't be included.

The Codex might be written poorly at times, but this time it isn't. Just the reading is done poorly.    <- The last comment there isn't needed. Thanks.  -Mort. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Morticon

[Spagunk]

Lightning claws are not, in fact, power weapons.

[Indefragable]

What @Panzer and Spagunk said.

 

its pretty straight forward, to be honest. Unfortunately your point would be like saying a thunder hammer is the same as a relic blade because thunder hammers are rare and therefore are sort of relics. Lightning claws and power weapons are listed as separate things and thus are separate especially given the wording Panzer quoted. 

[Xenith]

Been quite awhile, I've been lurking, slowly piecing together a Flesh Tearers army.

 

So, the question is, Death Company can exchange their bolt pistols and chainswords for power weapons.

 

To me, that would include lightning claws, as they are power weapons. Apparently there's a debate about that, because they aren't called Power Claws, in the same way that Power Sword, Power Axe, and Power Fist, are.

 

Settle a bet so I can tear some flesh? :3

 

As above. A 'powered weapon' is not a 'Power Weapon' The codex tells you they can take a power weapon. As per Panzer, it specifically calls out what weapons they can take. The last version of the codex to say 'may take power weapons' was the 7th ed book - do you have an up to date codex?

 

Even then, it says power weapon, power weapon is a separate item in the wargear list from lightning claw, and tells yo uto find the appropriate rules in the rulebook 

 

Hope that helps!

 

On the other hand, really keen to see those flesh tearers, got some photos?

Edited April 4, 2020 by Xenith

[NemFX]

Not yet, but they will be truescale, and I'm converting the entire army.

Current army list, rough:

 

Gabriel Seth, jump pack, eviscerator, iron halo, . Using Sanguinor rules.

Nessir Amit, jump pack, lightning claws, iron halo. Haven't decided which rules yet. Maybe Astorath.

 

Two lazcannon predators, one Baal predator with assault cannons/heavy bolters.

 

Death company with bolters, chainswords, jump packs.

 

Working on a devastator squad, and some tactical squads.

 

There's more, but that's what I currently have standing.

[Xenith]

 

Gabriel Seth, jump pack, eviscerator, iron halo, . Using Sanguinor rules.

Nessir Amit, jump pack, lightning claws, iron halo. Haven't decided which rules yet. Maybe Astorath.

 

 

 

Confused on this one - If you make a captain with lightning claws, use those rules? Astorath has an axe, not claws. 

[Leonaides]

And surely Amit ought to be in terminator armour with paired chainfists? I'd maybe look at converting tyberios the red wake from FW with his rather nice chain claws. Edited April 4, 2020 by Leonaides

[Panzer]

Amit wouldn't run around with Seth anyway.

[Morticon]

 

Been quite awhile, I've been lurking, slowly piecing together a Flesh Tearers army.

 

So, the question is, Death Company can exchange their bolt pistols and chainswords for power weapons.

 

To me, that would include lightning claws, as they are power weapons. Apparently there's a debate about that, because they aren't called Power Claws, in the same way that Power Sword, Power Axe, and Power Fist, are.

 

Settle a bet so I can tear some flesh? :3

 

 

It's pretty clear in the Codex. It doesn't say Death Company can exchange their bolt pistols and chainswords for power weapons. It says:

• Any model may replace it's bolt pistol with a bolt gun, hand flamer, inferno pistol, plasma pistol, power axe, power fist, power maul or power sword
• Any model may replace it's chainsword with a power axe, power fist, power maul or power sword
• Any model may replace it's chainsword and bolt pistol with a thunder hammer

 

 

Also if it would say "power weapons" then no Lightning Claws wouldn't be included just like Thunder hammers wouldn't be included.

The Codex might be written poorly at times, but this time it isn't. Just the reading is done poorly.    <- The last comment there isn't needed. Thanks.  -Mort. 

 

First part was helpful.  Second part wasnt.  Stay tidy. 

[Panzer]

Alright, appreciated.

[Closet Skeleton]

Lightning claws are not, in fact, power weapons.

 

Yes they are. They've been separate rules wise since 3rd ed rolled basic power weapons together but narrative wise a lightning claw is a power fist+ in the same way a chainfist is and has all the standard power fist functions in addition to the added claws. The lightning claw rules are more about making them distinct from thunder hammers than reflecting the background.

 

In 2nd ed a lightning claw was a powerfist with the parry ability normally restricted to swords and d3 damage while a power fist was 1 damage (opposite of 8th ed), both had the same save modifier and strength value.

 

'Power' doesn't refer to a specific kind of energy field just the fact that its a melee weapon that has one, Power Mauls and Power swords don't use the same type and neither do power fists. Power swords and power axes have a discharge field that transfers energy to the target, while power fists and power mauls have disruption fields that weaken or tear matter apart and chainfists and lightning claws combine both. Power fists are actually 'powered' in two ways, the articulated fingers have motors that drive them to above human/astartes strength and the energy field weakens the structural integrity of matter, combined this allows powerfists to tear and crush pretty much anything (they're not really a punching weapon though off course can kill regular humans when employed as such). A thunder hammer only activates on the point of contact and is possible a different kind of power field again.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[Spagunk]

 

Lightning claws are not, in fact, power weapons.

 

Yes they are. They've been separate rules wise since 3rd ed rolled basic power weapons together but narrative wise a lightning claw is a power fist+ in the same way a chainfist is and has all the standard power fist functions in addition to the added claws. The lightning claw rules are more about making them distinct from thunder hammers than reflecting the background.

 

In 2nd ed a lightning claw was a powerfist with the parry ability normally restricted to swords and d3 damage while a power fist was 1 damage (opposite of 8th ed), both had the same save modifier and strength value.

 

'Power' doesn't refer to a specific kind of energy field just the fact that its a melee weapon that has one, Power Mauls and Power swords don't use the same type and neither do power fists. Power swords and power axes have a discharge field that transfers energy to the target, while power fists and power mauls have disruption fields that weaken or tear matter apart and chainfists and lightning claws combine both. Power fists are actually 'powered' in two ways, the articulated fingers have motors that drive them to above human/astartes strength and the energy field weakens the structural integrity of matter, combined this allows powerfists to tear and crush pretty much anything (they're not really a punching weapon though off course can kill regular humans when employed as such). A thunder hammer only activates on the point of contact and is possible a different kind of power field again.

 

That is not what I meant.

 

Power weapons, as an option, doesn't exist in 8th like in previous editions. In 7th, power weapons were defined as the following:

 

power sword

power axe

power maul

power stave

 

Lightning claws and others were referred to by specialist weapons in that they had the specific rule (i.e. you had to have two specialist weapons to get the +1 attack for 2 ccws) and the fact that they each had special rules on top of them to make them different. Otherwise all weapons are just melee weapons.

 

I won't get into the historical context because that is not the question here. NemFX specifically asked whether DC can take lightning claws since they can exchange one of their weapons for a power weapon. 8th edition does not have power weapons as a distinct category anymore; they are just melee weapons. Ergo, lightning claws are not power weapons (present tense).

[Xenith]

 

Lightning claws are not, in fact, power weapons.

 

Yes they are. 

 

 

 

 

As above. A 'powered weapon' is not a 'Power Weapon' .

 

See above. While a lightning claw is indeed a power weapon in terms of fluff, it is not a "Power Weapon" in terms of rules. 

[redshadow]

 

 

 

 

 

As above. A 'powered weapon' is not a 'Power Weapon' .

 

See above. While a lightning claw is indeed a power weapon in terms of fluff, it is not a "Power Weapon" in terms of rules.

 

 

Correct

[Sugarlessllama]

I think the question has been well answered. However, I would say this NemFx.... if your gaming group is cool with it, then field them with claws. But keep in mind, that it wouldn't fly at any of the official conventions, or ITC stuff. But if you don't play in those types of events, then I wouldn't worry about it. 

 

So, can DC use lightning claws?

 

RAW: No.

Rule-of-Cool: Why not?

 

But, I do have one suggestion. Based on some of your other posts, I get the feeling you might be getting your rules from either Battlescribe, or other online sources. If you haven't already, I would encourage you to pick up a copy of the actual codex (hard copy, or on digits) and spend some time with it, along with the Blood of Baal psychic awakening book. Those two sources when combined are going to be able to give you a really solid foundation for building your army in the current edition. And this foundation will really empower you to be able to best leverage the tremendous resource this community is in regards to refining your roster building, and hobby based camaraderie. 

 

As a fellow recent addition to Team Dracula, I look forward to seeing your Flesh Tearers come to life. :D

Edited April 11, 2020 by Sugarlessllama

[Xenith]

I think the lack of lightning claws is also an artefact of 5th ed. In that version of the rules adding a chaplain to a DC squad gave them rerolls to hit and rerolls to wound, meaning a claw was pointless.