Anyone excited about Swiftclaw Bikers

[sturguard]

Ok, Im biased, I'll admit. I really have no plans on jumping on the Primaris units, I painted up a unit of 5 intercessors and have 3 aggressors and 5 infiltrators- I have no real desire to delve any further into them. I have to say I am REALLY pleased with the Saga of the Beast, yes, we have warlord traits all for new HQs and some strategems that only work for new Primaris, but GW did a good job with really making alot of the older units shine. I will say I appreciate that as its probably the last time thats going to happen, then Ill have to make my whole army "counts as" primaris.

 

So I have a huge SW army, I probably have 15 terminators (love the upgrades to them), 10 old metal wulfen, 9 swiftclaw bikers and one attack bike, as well as all the other nuts and bolts you might see in an older sw army (4 dreadnoughts of various types). The only thing they could have done better is somehow make SW scouts better, man, my 2 units of scouts have sat on the shelf for a long, long time.

 

I have been dying to put the bikers on the table and this seems like it could be my chance. Yes, I understand maybe point for point Wulfen are better and maybe Terminators- but I plan on using those as well. I was thinking of having a hammer and anvil unit with a 10 man squad of terminators to deep strike in and a unit of 9 bikes, an attack bike and WG on bike, which as long as Im careful with upgrades, should come out to around 300 pts. Bloodclaws can really pile up the attacks now, I mean I cant even get my head around how many attacks they can have.

 

So they have 

1 base

1 for chainsword

1 for Beserker charge

1 for HQ with wulfen stone

1 for shock assault

 

And I love Skilled Riders on them. Yes, its 2 command points but with a movement of 20" they only need it one turn. 3+ invul save from shooting. And with a bunch of terminators on the board and a 5 man squad of wulfen I think thats enough to really force your opponent into hard choices. 

 

Obviously the swiftclaws play off the wulfen as well correct as they have the keyword bloodclaws?

 

Yes maybe at the end of the day another squad of terminators would be better, but for a bit less than the terminators, the bikes have higher toughness, and so much movement that the terminators lack. What are peoples thoughts on them?

[NightHowler]

I hadn’t thought about swiftclaw, but only because I’ve never really thought about them before, but I can definitely see a few uses for them now. I’ll have to include them in a few theorycraft lists and see what I think.

[sturguard]

So maybe Im doing this for my own benefit as I dont play a whole lot and there are so many rules to sort through

Swiftclaws

1 base

1 for chainsword

1 for Beserker charge

1 for HQ with wulfen stone

1 for shock assault

roll of 6 generates extra hit during assault doctrine

+1 to hit rolls in fight phase- hunters unleashed

 

Skilled Riders- 2cps 4+ invul to shooting while moving, 3+ invul if advanced

Transhuman Physiology- 2cps unmodified to wound rolls of 1-3 fail

Overwhelming Impetuosity- 1cp reroll all to hit rolls against enemies with a higher power rating 

Honour the Chapter- 3cps- fight a second time

Curse of the Wulfen Hunt and Kill 12" range

Litanies- Exhortation of Rage, Cantile of Hate, Recitation of Focus, Mantra of Strength and Tale of the Wolf King all benefit this unit

Wolf Priest Oath of War reroll failed hit rolls

 

And then obviously wolf lord/battle leader rerolls and a few of the spells.

 

Maybe I could make this list for any of the units in the codex, but even if they guys aren't auto include or a competitive list choice, I think they are a very capable unit, especially if supported by a big block of terminators and some wulfen (and the right characters). 

 

So say 9 bikers, a wolfguard biker and an attack bike (for 35 pts and 4 wounds, its just there to be a sponge) with a wolf priest with Wulfen Stone (we will assume he fails his litany)

Each biker would get 5 attacks, they would get +1 to hit (hit on 2's) and reroll misses due to Oaths of War. You havent used any cps, litanies, psychic powers, etc. Just the bikes, wolf priest and relic. 

 

Obviously when you get to the assault doctrine and add in a litany it gets ridiculous. So the 9 bikes plus attack bike cost around 260, then add in a wolf guard bike and a wolf priest and you are looking at say 400 pts total. My question is, would this unit hold up to the punishment it would take? Thats 24 t5 wounds, not including the wolf priest (and the wolf priest will heal d3 wounds a turn). Now you can burn 4 cps but giving them a 3+ invul save and making 50 percent of wounding rolls go away. 

 

Thoughts?

[Karack Blackstone]

So maybe Im doing this for my own benefit as I dont play a whole lot and there are so many rules to sort through

Swiftclaws

1 base

1 for chainsword

1 for Beserker charge

1 for HQ with wulfen stone

1 for shock assault

roll of 6 generates extra hit during assault doctrine

+1 to hit rolls in fight phase- hunters unleashed

 

Skilled Riders- 2cps 4+ invul to shooting while moving, 3+ invul if advanced

Transhuman Physiology- 2cps unmodified to wound rolls of 1-3 fail

Overwhelming Impetuosity- 1cp reroll all to hit rolls against enemies with a higher power rating 

Honour the Chapter- 3cps- fight a second time

Curse of the Wulfen Hunt and Kill 12" range

Litanies- Exhortation of Rage, Cantile of Hate, Recitation of Focus, Mantra of Strength and Tale of the Wolf King all benefit this unit

Wolf Priest Oath of War reroll failed hit rolls

 

And then obviously wolf lord/battle leader rerolls and a few of the spells.

 

Maybe I could make this list for any of the units in the codex, but even if they guys aren't auto include or a competitive list choice, I think they are a very capable unit, especially if supported by a big block of terminators and some wulfen (and the right characters). 

 

So say 9 bikers, a wolfguard biker and an attack bike (for 35 pts and 4 wounds, its just there to be a sponge) with a wolf priest with Wulfen Stone (we will assume he fails his litany)

Each biker would get 5 attacks, they would get +1 to hit (hit on 2's) and reroll misses due to Oaths of War. You havent used any cps, litanies, psychic powers, etc. Just the bikes, wolf priest and relic. 

 

Obviously when you get to the assault doctrine and add in a litany it gets ridiculous. So the 9 bikes plus attack bike cost around 260, then add in a wolf guard bike and a wolf priest and you are looking at say 400 pts total. My question is, would this unit hold up to the punishment it would take? Thats 24 t5 wounds, not including the wolf priest (and the wolf priest will heal d3 wounds a turn). Now you can burn 4 cps but giving them a 3+ invul save and making 50 percent of wounding rolls go away. 

 

Thoughts?

Clutch move is clutch.

 

When is this degree of deathstar, albeit light deathstar, needed?

When is it good?

When does it potentially fail, and how?

Is Transhuman Physiology good enough on its own to offset enough weight of return fire to justify nearly 1/5th of a 2,000 point list?

Can

[sturguard]

The idea is you are going to lose bikes turn 1 because if this unit crashes into something full strength  I would guess it can tear up plenty of units worth more than 300 pts (or multicharge), so the big question is, if your opponent uses most of his firepower to grind down this unit, does that save more of your other units. With 11 total bikes, this unit is still good at half strength, so lets say you lose 10 wounds to incoming fire turn 1, thats an attack bike and 3 bikes so 110 pts, that still leaves you with a wolfguard biker with thammer, a swiftclaw with powerfist and 5 normal bikers.

 

Conversely, lets say you are going up against a melee heavy army, nothing wrong with moving up and firing 40 bolter shots that hit on 3's, 26 hits. 

 

Argh foiled again- I just checked I dont have enough bikes to do 9. I have 8. However, I think the point still stands for 6 bikes an attack bike and wolfguard bike. Really you have 14 t5 wounds to lose, you really just care about the pack leader with powefist and wolfguard with powerfist/thunderhammer hitting home during the assault doctrine. This unit with the wolf priest would probably clock in around 230 pts. 

 

A unit of 5 terminators will probably cost you close to that (albiet perhaps in a different role) but you have 10 t4 wounds total and obviously every wound they take hurts alot more than the expendable attack bike and 5 swiftclaws.

 

So all I have is the rules card- can someone help me out, are there restrictions on bike movement through terrain, second level like beasts?

 

Also, someone had mentioned that they are already going to have to do a FAQ of the book, what did they mess up?

Edited April 4, 2020 by sturguard

[Karack Blackstone]

5 to 10 or 5 to 15 SkyClaws?

 

That's one if they continue to mess it up.

 

The one already mentioned I think were the Land Speeder points values or options, something of that sort.

[QuarterPounder]

Very interesting... I didn't put together that Swiftclaws had the Bloodclaw keyword.... that opens up a lot of potential.

 

Unfortunately bikes are limited in movement, and can't go up levels. Don't know about going in to ruins, though.

Edited April 5, 2020 by QuarterPounder

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Also, someone had mentioned that they are already going to have to do a FAQ of the book, what did they mess up?

1 mess up, they put land speeders back at 70 points when they just FAQd them to match regular marines.

 

And 1 retro FAQ because they changed combat doctrines after the book was in print so we have the old wording

[Dark Shepherd]

Bloodclaws have a BS of 4+ so the shooting is that little bit weaker

 

CC wise am not a fan of mass S4 no AP attacks. Against anything T3 itll be a bloodbath but 9 swiftclaws on the charge with 5 attacks each would on average kill a total of 3 Primaris marines

 

Maybe a smaller unit as cannon fodder/a distraction?

The 2 pack leaders are the damage dealers for me so throw in a couple of powerfists or thunderhammers and then theyre a serious threat. Maybe even do 2 units of 4 that way

[TiguriusX]

Let me play devil's advocate

 

Swiftclaws are bad because you cant hide them. Your 9+ bikes take a huge amount of board space.

 

If you aren't going first they are likely easy pickings for ranged weapons.

 

If you manage to find terrain that can hide all your bikes you probably dont have enough movement to get around it and drive where you want to be

[sturguard]

I was thinking the point in that case would be to attract lots of firepower, put them out there so they can get a turn 2 charge off. If I have first turn they are going to have a 3+ invul and wounding rolls of 1-3 miss whiff. Yeah, thats some CPs but can your opponent really afford to ignore them?

 

However, I am starting to rethink a bit. Really all I would care about is the swiftclaw with the pfist and the wg with thunder hammer hitting home. The rest of the unit is just chaff. Also  I think with the large unit of terminators and wulfen on the field, honestly I think this unit will get overlooked. I am working on a list now that I think will have alot of options and be fun to play.

[Valerian]

Unfortunately, Swiftclaws are just an underwhelming, inefficient unit (and I’ve got a big Pack if them that I’ve had for many years).

[SpiritFox22]

Yeah Swiftclaws are still subpar as far as I'm concerned.  At best they MIGHT be able to pull a distraction carnifex, but I think Skyclaws are a far better option with their jumpacks as you can get the same amount of attacks for less points and 2" less movement. 

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

The thing I like about skyclaws over swift claws is the built in deep strike. Run up a priest or lord with pack turn 1, DS skyvlaws turn 2 and charge them into the chaff.

[Valerian]

Also, Skyclaws can deal with Ruins, whereas Swiftclaws are stuck on the first floor, yelling obscenities to the defenders on the upper levels.

[Karhedron]

I agree, Swiftclaws just seem underwhelming. Admittedly I am still mourning the loss of the far superior Wolf Guard bikers to legends. Edited April 8, 2020 by Karhedron

[sturguard]

I don't know that I would say Skyclaws are cheaper, yes 16 pts compared to 25-, but Skyclaws have one wound opposed to 2, they have a toughness of 4 compared to 5, they have a 12+d6 movement, compared to 20 inch movement and although its bs4 (which you can use various ways to get higher) you do have 24 bolter shots, whereas a skyclaw squad has next to nothing as far as shooting goes. To put in in perspective you are paying 54 more points for all those bonuses in a 6 man swiftclaw squad. A 10 man skyclaw squad costs more than a 6 man swiftclaw squad (and still has less wounds). 

 

Now, you are correct, they can't move onto the second floor of ruins, but honestly, we dont play with man second story buildings and I have 1800 other points of units that can do that. They also can deep strike which the swiftclaws cant- again an advantage.

 

And skyclaws or swiftclaws, neither are terribly scary, what makes them scary is the powerfist and thunderhammer/powerfist wg inside. Essentially even if you deliver just the pfist and thunderhammer, you can do some damage, especially with buffs. I am tinkering around with a 6 man squad, with a pfist and a wolfguard with pfist- its 200pts on the nose. So what I really want to find out is how much firepower that unit can absorb while taking the pressure off the rest of my other units. I mean turn 2 swiftclaws can reasonably charge anywhere on the board with 34 inches of regular movement and you dont need any buffs to do that- but maybe thats more than I need. I will have outflankers, I can already have deepstrikers, they just seem to be a very tough unit that on t2 can support any of my efforts, whether they be on the flank or in the middle. 

 

Now maybe you cut them to 3 bikes and the wg with pfist, but that seems too little, it seems to easy to get to the chocolately candy center (the 2 pfists), 2 ablative bikes dont seem enough. Unfortunately cant really figure this out until the homebound restrictions are lifted.