Alternative army builders? (other than BattleScribe)

[NemFX]

I keep asking about rules contradictions, because between the Blood Angels codex, and the Battlescribe army builder app, apparently there's some sort of confusion.

 

I have been trying to piece together my Flesh Tearers army for 8th, and the points values aren't adding up. The app says I can take stuff I can't, or more frustratingly, that I can't take things I know I can.

 

I just spent quite some time writing out an army list by hand, and now I'm questioning if anything even adds up. I know what I can take, despite wondering why GW apparently hates lightning claws now, but I just want to find some way to make sure that I can have this army list work properly.

 

There used to be a different army builder thing, but apparently it got nuked, so is there anything else out there that I'm unaware of?

Edited April 10, 2020 by Dosjetka
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[Brother Tyler]

I just use the official codex and incorporate any changes from the various Chapter Approved books, the Psychic Awakening update, and the (free!) errata and FAQs (see the resource topics for links).

 

GW has this Combat Roster on the Warhammer Community site, but I don't know how it works. It looks nice, though.

 

In the meantime, you can't go wrong if you just use the official rules.

[Jings]

There's been a lot of equipment changes for sergeants in 8th, could be the problem?

 

They're always hunting for errors, couldn't hurt to submit any issues you've found - they'll likely resolve them.

[NemFX]

Hey Tyler, nice to see a name I still recognize around here :)

I tried using that roster, but I cant figure out how you pick wargear or anything, maybe its just to give super basic examples?

 

But yeah, the problem for battlescribe is mostly that they give the wrong point costs, or say you can take things you cant

[NemFX]

For the sake of,

Sanguinor:    Rulebook - 200. Battlescribe - 150.

Astorath:       Rulebook - 165. Battlescribe - 105.

 

The points value differences are pretty random, it just gives you an idea of the confusion.

[NTaW]

Those are the point values from the most recent Chapter Approved book I think.

 

Would be worth a cross reference. Battlescribe has its foibles but it's usually pretty spot on with points values.

Edited April 4, 2020 by NTaW

[Overwhelming Odds]

I feel your pain. I could not figure out why Astorath could only take 2 litanies in battlescribe when I had Blood of Baal in front of me saying he could take 3. Then I looked at the FAQ out of frustration and say he lost one. Between Chapter Approved points drops and FAQS battlescribe can be amazing for catching obscure changes. But it shows the frustration with keeping tabs on all the changes. Battlescribe does help more than it hurts.

 

V/r,

 

Dan

[MARK0SIAN]

For the sake of,

 

Sanguinor: Rulebook - 200. Battlescribe - 150.

Astorath: Rulebook - 165. Battlescribe - 105.

 

The points value differences are pretty random, it just gives you an idea of the confusion.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood but it sounds like you’re only going by the codex? To be sure battlescribe is incorrect you need to be comparing the points in chapter approved, blood of Baal and any relevant faqs/errata.

 

It’s annoying to have to do it that way but by this point in its lifecycle the points costs in the codex are out of date and I’d bet money that more of them are wrong than still correct.

 

BattleScribe isn’t perfect and they’re constantly working to fix bugs but they’re right more than they’re wrong. I know whenever I’ve thought they had something wrong it’s actually me not looking in the correct place rather than BattleScribe.

[tychobi]

Battlescribe I trust more than any single GW publication. Too many changes. The books are obsolete as you buy them and the changes are hard to keep up with. The Battlescribe team does hero's work for very thin reward. I do not know of any resource as accurate and useful for 40k list building as Battlescribe. It certainly does not "suck".

[Panzer]

 

For the sake of,

Sanguinor: Rulebook - 200. Battlescribe - 150.

Astorath: Rulebook - 165. Battlescribe - 105.

The points value differences are pretty random, it just gives you an idea of the confusion.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood but it sounds like you’re only going by the codex? To be sure battlescribe is incorrect you need to be comparing the points in chapter approved, blood of Baal and any relevant faqs/errata.

It's not quite this dramatic. Blood of Baal has only a reprint of the Chapter Approved point changes and there aren't any point changes in FAQs/Erratas. Edited April 5, 2020 by Panzer

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Battlescribe is great.

[Tamwulf]

 

 

For the sake of,

Sanguinor: Rulebook - 200. Battlescribe - 150.

Astorath: Rulebook - 165. Battlescribe - 105.

The points value differences are pretty random, it just gives you an idea of the confusion.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood but it sounds like you’re only going by the codex? To be sure battlescribe is incorrect you need to be comparing the points in chapter approved, blood of Baal and any relevant faqs/errata.

It's not quite this dramatic. Blood of Baal has only a reprint of the Chapter Approved point changes and there aren't any point changes in FAQs/Erratas.

 

Funny thing- The Sanguinor is actually 130 in CA 2019 and in Blood of Baal. What I like about Battle Scribe: Gives me ideas and allows me to see all the rules, though not necessarily where the rules come from. The points values? Nope. I guarantee a 2,000 point list will be off by +/- 10% or more. I've also seen issues with more than one detachment, and I've personally had a player say "Well, Battlescribe allows it..." Battlescribe is a volunteer, freeware app. It's accuracy is only as good as the people that modify the files, and as far as I can tell, there isn't much of a QA done on those files. Would I pay for Battlescribe? Nope. Not until it gets a lot better. It really brings to light how complicated army creation can be in 40K. Really wish GW would address this. 

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

For the sake of,

Sanguinor: Rulebook - 200. Battlescribe - 150.

Astorath: Rulebook - 165. Battlescribe - 105.

The points value differences are pretty random, it just gives you an idea of the confusion.

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood but it sounds like you’re only going by the codex? To be sure battlescribe is incorrect you need to be comparing the points in chapter approved, blood of Baal and any relevant faqs/errata.

It's not quite this dramatic. Blood of Baal has only a reprint of the Chapter Approved point changes and there aren't any point changes in FAQs/Erratas.

There are points changes and additional unit options in the faq/errata for Chapter approved so you definitely need to check it. I’ll take your word for Blood of Baal because I don’t own it but everything I said stands, when building an army list you need to check: codex, chapter approved, any supplements where additional units are added after chapter approved is published and the relevant faq/errata for wherever those points were last published. I don’t think I’m being over dramatic in that statement. Edited April 5, 2020 by MARK0SIAN

[NemFX]

The problem I have is simple, I literally do not know what point values anything are.

 

Everyone seems to point me to a different place, and all of the sources give different information on points, and what I'm allowed to take.

 

I realize that standardization is difficult, but this system they are currently using seems to be about as confusing as possible.

[NTaW]

Use Psychic Awakening: Blood of Baal or Chapter Approved 2019 for the current point costs for Blood Angel units. You must also consider that there could be updates in the form of FAQs (available from the Warhammer Community website) for the PA book and CA2019 which could alter those texts.

 

The current point values are in two spots because the PA book is meant to supplement the Codex and the Chapter Approved book offers a game-wide compendium of current points costs.

 

Using multiple sources for an army in this game isn't new but doesn't make it any less frustrating. Right now for every faction there's essentially:

 

-Codex (or White Dwarf article)

 

-Supplement (Psychic Awakening and/or White Dwarf)

 

-Chapter Approved (most recent year, released in December)

 

-FAQs for all sources as mentioned

 

It's a byproduct of a decently supported system really, FAQs and CA books help maintain an ongoing balance between armies but also create multiple sources of information. I think this is largely where the rumours of a new edition is coming from, so all armies can get a new book with all data amalgamated. Of course, at that point a new series of supplement books will come out providing rules for the neverending slew of new models and the process will begin again.

Edited April 5, 2020 by NTaW

[.Torch.]

I think this problem is more due to the bloat of rules and FAQs in the current edition rather than "battlescribe sucks".

 

For Blood Angels; the Codex, Psychic Awakening: Blood of Baal and Chapter Approved 2019 should cover all your points costs. Then then cross-reference with the latest FAQ on the GW website.

 

Most of Battlescribes features are free, which I think makes it a great app. They have a forum for feedback if you do find mistakes, but I find they tend to correct most things themselves.

 

I'm actually a big fan of pen and paper at the moment. I enjoy the nostalgia from before everything went digital.

[tychobi]

The problem I have is simple, I literally do not know what point values anything are.

 

Everyone seems to point me to a different place, and all of the sources give different information on points, and what I'm allowed to take.

 

I realize that standardization is difficult, but this system they are currently using seems to be about as confusing as possible.

I feel you. This is a real problem. Battlescribe is there to help you. No one is telling you to look in different places. There are sadly too many places to look.

 

I for one am on strike and will not purchase GW publications of any kind until they produce a free living set of rules that exists in one place that all can access. (Xwing 2 is a current example) Telling a new player that they will need 10ish books and magazines, some out of print all out of date and incorrect, to have a comprehensive rules set for tournament play they balk. I mention the 500$ish it would actually cost and they laugh.

 

I vote for change with my dollars. I miss buying pretty books with awesome stories and pictures in em. I just have stacks of em with different sets of outdated rules. I am burnt out. I buy more models instead

[Closet Skeleton]

I consider battlescribe to be awful and terrible but I've never used it and that experience is purely from how it outputs lists other people use. Its seriously ugly and inconvenient. Its way easier to look at your opponent's army and ask questions than thumble through 5 printed out pages.

 

Hey Tyler, nice to see a name I still recognize around here

I tried using that roster, but I cant figure out how you pick wargear or anything, maybe its just to give super basic examples?

 

Its power level only, that's why there's no wargear options.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s great coz it’s an app that runs on mobile devices, easy to use plus FREE. There used to be AB but they stopped supporting 40k a long time ago.

[Irbis]

I consider battlescribe to be awful and terrible but I've never used it and that experience is purely from how it outputs lists other people use. Its seriously ugly and inconvenient. Its way easier to look at your opponent's army and ask questions than thumble through 5 printed out pages.

To be fair, even though BS has terrible GUI that looks like it was made by a programmer, and is terrible in use, with some prodding you can force it to output concise list with only essentials, a pretty good tool to make quick and accurate army lists. A lot of people don't bother though or can't navigate the convoluted menus to do so...

[Halandaar]

While i personally don't like Battlescribe at all, in this instance the thing that sucks is the scattering of rules and points values over multiple publications/erratas with no clear guidance as to what's where, rather than the data files themselves being inaccurate.

[Vermintide]

For real I have no idea how I would play this game right now if it wasn't for Battlescribe, though. Back in the old says you had the rules, your codex, and you were set. It was less balanced overall but it's a tabletop, pen and paper, real life game, not a videogame, so you didn't really expect that. The weird thing now is how we're trying to have the best of both worlds, and we're paying for a new physical book every time a patch comes out. It honestly kills me a little inside just to think of all those lovely books sat gathering dust because they're obsolete now.

I would love to see GW go online for the next edition, and make it the "final" edition. They could still charge for stuff, like say have an app and buying the base version just gives you the rules, then you buy "codexes" to bolt on which give you access to the rules for each of those factions. They could still print the codexes for lore but have all the points etc through the app, hell even have QR codes you scan in the app and it adds them to your list/brings up the stats. It would give the game so much more flexibility.

I mean I love using the books for an old school feel don't get me wrong. But even the modern books just aren't well designed for that- the books I own, from 3rd edition, all have summary pages, so you have the statline of every unit in your army on one page. There are wargear lists on one page, special rules on one page. They have points values right there on the the unit cards. It tells you how much points the weapons cost in the unit description. You don't have to flick backwards and forwards through the book like "I want this guy, let's see flip flip flip he's 90 points base flip flip flip his gun costs 5 points flip flip flip and his jump pack costs...", you don't have your chapter tactic in one book and your doctrines in another book, and then your special actual unique special rule in the codex on that other page after all the unit cards...

I swear to god there was one time I just blanked, and honestly couldn't even find the page (PDF) where it says my BA have +1 to wound.

Sorry anyway, not sure where I was going with this rant other than agreeing, the admin work required to play 40k right now (if you don't just use Battlescribe) is a real mess.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Vermintide

[MARK0SIAN]

For real I have no idea how I would play this game right now if it wasn't for Battlescribe, though. Back in the old says you had the rules, your codex, and you were set. It was less balanced overall but it's a tabletop, pen and paper, real life game, not a videogame, so you didn't really expect that. The weird thing now is how we're trying to have the best of both worlds, and we're paying for a new physical book every time a patch comes out. It honestly kills me a little inside just to think of all those lovely books sat gathering dust because they're obsolete now.

 

I would love to see GW go online for the next edition, and make it the "final" edition. They could still charge for stuff, like say have an app and buying the base version just gives you the rules, then you buy "codexes" to bolt on which give you access to the rules for each of those factions. They could still print the codexes for lore but have all the points etc through the app, hell even have QR codes you scan in the app and it adds them to your list/brings up the stats. It would give the game so much more flexibility.

 

I mean I love using the books for an old school feel don't get me wrong. But even the modern books just aren't well designed for that- the books I own, from 3rd edition, all have summary pages, so you have the statline of every unit in your army on one page. There are wargear lists on one page, special rules on one page. They have points values right there on the the unit cards. It tells you how much points the weapons cost in the unit description. You don't have to flick backwards and forwards through the book like "I want this guy, let's see flip flip flip he's 90 points base flip flip flip his gun costs 5 points flip flip flip and his jump pack costs...", you don't have your chapter tactic in one book and your doctrines in another book, and then your special actual unique special rule in the codex on that other page after all the unit cards...

 

I swear to god there was one time I just blanked, and honestly couldn't even find the page (PDF) where it says my BA have +1 to wound.

 

Sorry anyway, not sure where I was going with this rant other than agreeing, the admin work required to play 40k right now (if you don't just use Battlescribe) is a real mess.

This!

 

By any measure the way they expect you to calculate the points cost of a unit is cumbersome and more difficult than it needs to be. Having to look up three or four different tables just to find the cost of a single model is just daft. It’s hard to see any benefit they get from this.

 

My personal theory is that they either genuinely expected Power levels to be the mainstream way people played and for them to take off in a way they just haven’t OR (tinfoil hat time) they made it deliberately difficult to force people into power levels.

 

Either way, if they do release another edition I’m hoping this is one area they will seriously look at and attempt to streamline it.

[MegaVolt87]

I don't mind the rules bookeeping funnily enough. My issue is the value of the actual publications themaelves. Recycled art and lore etc don't actually entice me enough to buy many codexes these days outside of my main faction (CSM). I run lists in excel sheets with custom layouts etc. Battlescribe has been good for me for HH until I got my own digital copies of them.

[Noserenda]

I quite like Power levels when they are well picked tbh, but noone else does so points it is.

I do hope 9th just has them put points values online tbh, i mean our group is so focused on Specialist/boxed games these days that i cant afford to fork out cash for chapter approved (Though thats the budget of the disabled for you) for a handful of games over the year, so battlescribe it is... Though ilol admit i mostly started using it because using a Heresy army with 3 black books was wildly impractical, so things have gotten better on that front at least! 

As mentioned above Battlescribe has its foibles though, some people are clearly a lot better at making the lists than others and it really shows.