Building Synergy: SW SotB Options

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello all.

 

As we know, Saga of the Beast, SotB, has dropped, just only in limited scope.

 

Well, now, we do know to at least some extent that the SW's options overall have jumped, pushing our lists hypothetically into a brand new scope of synergy, possibly making our list no longer bottom rung. If anything, the Wolves stand to benefit amongst the most from Psychic Awakening.

 

To that end, here's the thread and it's point:

What options breakdowns work best for you?

Let's build a PA:6 - SotB Tactica master list.

 

Here we go...

 

HQ:

- WL -

- WP -

- WGBL -

- RP -

- P-WL -

- P-WP -

- P-RP -

- P-WGBL -

- TWM WL -

- TWM WGBL -

- Any Missed -

- (Named, no Relics, can we add a Saga now?)

 

Troops:

- GH's -

- BC's -

- IC's -

- InC's (Incursors) -

- Others - (I don't have my Codex book right in front of me) -

Elites:

- Wulfen -

- WG TGA -

- WG PA -

- Dreads -

- Ven Dreads -

- Murderfang(?) -

- Others -

Fast Attack:

- SkyClaws -

- SwiftClaws -

- TWC -

- Land Speeders -

- Others -

 

Heavy Support:

- Long Fangs -

- Predators -

- Land Raiders -

- Land Raider Crusaders -

- Land Raider Redeemers -

- Whirlwinds -

- Vindicators -

- Others -

 

This list is by no means extensive; mods, please edit in any and all units needed to flesh out this list.

 

 

1 - As far as the overall unit types, what units best buff each other?

2 - GH's, BC's, IC's, are all great, grand units. Buffers nearby will only aid them. Which option(s) do you favor?

3 - LF's are way too strong to not consider at least vital now, if not a "mandatory" selection. What are your thoughts on this call? Please make your case.

4 - Everything on paper CAN be made viable. What's the crunch of the table going to prove with your idea(s)?

 

I'm figuring for myself I need to get max mileage out of my BC's, GH's, and build some IC's, Intercessors, and maybe get some Incursors for more sniper fun. Right now I primarily have the Astartes PA models in large numbers. I typically run large packs, and it's starting to seem like smaller units, MSU, is too good for right now to pass up as large packs are just not survivable enough.

 

Your thoughts? Details, and lots of them; please post like no one else can read your mind.

 

Go.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Karack Blackstone

[DanPesci]

I cant speak for everything (as own zero primaris) was doing a load of playing around with Wolf Guard last night. WIth the right support options they can become beast.

 

 

Doctrines

 

Wolf guard are in a great position to take advantage of these due to their varied loadout options. The cheap SB/SS combo now gets AP-1 in combat doctrine, with assault doctine helping out their lack of CC weapons.

 

I don't think Id go as far as to pay for CMLs to take advantage of the devastator doctrine - points would probably be better spent on more long fangs.

 

 

New Strats

 

Transhuman Phsyiology is a no brainer for WGTDA. Maybe less so on their 1 wound power armoured variants. 

 

Fury of champions - +1 to hit now makes combi-plasma bombs excellent again (and makes everything else better too). Even storm bolters en-masse hitting on 2s is great. 

 

Subsequently hitting on 2s with thunder hammers is then horrific.

 

Vicious Executioners - An interesting strat as its possible to boost our wolf guard to a number of attacks to get a few 6s. Useful for taking down the last few wounds on a nasty target for terminators. This strat works best with LOTS of attacks. 

 

 

 

Synergy Characters

 

- If taking wolf guard I always include arjac with them. He gives them +1 attack and doubles up as a lieutenant for the rest of your army. Whilst also being an excellent character killer in his own right.

- Wolf Priest with jump pack to get the +2 to charge - Wulfen Stone

- Wolf Lord on jump pack for rerolls - probably wearing armour or russ

 

That's already quite a chunk of points without any wolf guard, but apart from arjac most lists are taking a priest/lord anyway.

 

 

 

Wolf Guard Terminators

 

Very easy to get carried away pointswise with these, however with arjac and wulfen stone nearby they are getting 5 attacks on the charge.

 

I think one trap now may be to put in too many thunder hammers. Im thinking instead keep the TH to 1-3 in a large squad rather than say 4-5 and instead rely on arjac/wulfenstone to boost number of attacks, and then getting some explodes turn 3 onwards (although really, you need to be doing the damage in turn 2 on arrival).

 

Because they can be made +1 to hit with the strat lower number of attacks is less of an issue.

 

Combi Plas is now an excellent option due to Fury of the Champions strat (ie safe overcharge):

 

WGPL TH/SS

4-5x CP/SS

 

You could also do some combined dakka termies to take advantage of the combat doctrine. With a few hammers to smash things in. SB/SS are cheap and kick out a lot of bolter shots the turn they arrive (and these guys still out 5 attacks on the charge with arjac + wulfen stone nearby:

 

WGPL TH/SS

2x TH/SS

7x SB/SS

 

 

 

Wolf Guard with Jump Packs

 

Always had a soft spot for these guys, and they got better with our new strats.

 

10x WGJP

WGPL TH/SS

9x SB/SS

 

Similar idea to the storm bolter termies, but cheaper and more mobility at the cost of  durability

 

 

10x WGJP

WGPL TH/SS

9x Dual Chainsword.

 

This squad is setup to make the most of the vicious executioners strat.

 

Comes in at 10 points more than a unit of JP death company.

WIth arjac and wulfen stone nearby each guy does 7 attacks on the charge.

Fury of the champions to hit on 2s

Wolf lord nearby to reroll 1s

Vicous Executioners to then do mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6  

Arjac nearby to reroll wound rolls of 1 (maybe netting a few more 6s in the process)

A full squad like this should be doing 10+ mortal wounds before regular damage on average. That then rises if you factor in rerolls from the wolf lord, wound rerolls from arjac, and if your are in turn 3 onwards, exploding 6s to hit.

 

 

Wolf Guard in power armour

 

You could also swap out the jump packs on the guys above for a rhino at an extra 27 points.

Its adding cost to an already expensive unit.

This means that you can have them on the table turn 1, and also means you could use the rhinos as LOS blockers for other units (ie advancing JP characters & wulfen).

 

Rule of cool - Multiple units of 10 man wolf guard coming out of a rhino with dual chainswords for a counts as 13th company

 

 

Wolf Guard on bikes

 

Its been a long time since I've used bikes but I worry about them as I tend to be able to kill my mates Dark Angels bikers very easily with my admech. However we can now use all the above strategems/doctrines to make these guys more worth the points, and do we have access to a skilled rider strat now?

 

 

 

 

Min or Max, mix or dont mix?

 

With all the new strats, you will obviously get more mileage on them when used on a large squad. However with wolf guard this gets very expensive very quickly (non terminators especially become very glass cannon). Do people think its worth maxing squads out to 10?

 

Similarly with the fairly unique wargear options we get, its possible for us to mix loadout wildly in squads. Do people think this is the better option or do you prefer keeping squads to one role (e.g. all TH/SS or mix ranged weapons in)?  

Edited April 5, 2020 by DanPesci

[Gherrick]

Its my understanding that WG bikers are legends now, which I find very annoying. WG bikers with SB/combi + SS are very strong, but not OP, IMO.

[Karack Blackstone]

How are people considering SkyClaws, SwiftClaws and the mentioned WGBikers?

 

I realize moving and roving packs of 10 or more Bikes with twin BoltGuns can do some pretty serious damage, however, how might one build for SkyClaws?

 

Wulfen are way too strong to not at least consider as a buffer, however, Bikes seem inclined to outrun the Wulfen while Blood Claws will struggle to keep up without a ride.

 

Might SkyClaws be used to fill the niche successfully? If so, how?

 

Edit:

 

On the WG CSwd pack, I thought our base rules for charging gives +1 to hit on the charge? Why / what does the Fury of the Champions do?

 

Do we retain the +1 to hit still?

Edited April 5, 2020 by Karack Blackstone

[DanPesci]

 

 

On the WG CSwd pack, I thought our base rules for charging gives +1 to hit on the charge? Why / what does the Fury of the Champions do?

 

Do we retain the +1 to hit still?

 

 

So we already get the +1 due to space wolves

 

Fury of the champions says this:

Select one Space Wolves Terminator unit from your army. Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made by a model in this unit, add 1 to the hit roll

 

So you can use that in either the shooting phase (combi plasma fun/massed storm bolters hitting on 2s), and/or the fight phase to be +2 to hit (so thunder hammers hit on 2s).

 

 

 

 

How are people considering SkyClaws, SwiftClaws and the mentioned WGBikers?

 

 

They could be good for putting out mass attacks, but BS4 boltguns are annoying.

 

Id go down the JP route if I was going claws so they can DS turn 2.

 

The main thing for me with wolf guard is that you can buff them with wulfen like claws, but you then get the Fury of Champions (if TDA) and Vicious Executioners strats, and arjac buffs potentionally...which claws dont.

 

 

EDIT - Ive realised fury of the champions can only be put onto terminators, which makes the Jump Pack wolf guard slightly less potent for pouring out thunder hammer attacks. Although with chainswords they are still hitting on 2s.

Edited April 5, 2020 by DanPesci

[DanPesci]

This is the wolf guard based list I crafted up this evening.

 

 

BATALLION

 

Bjorn - Lascannons

Ragnar

Wolf Priest - Jump pack, storm bolter

 

Grey Hunters x5, Plasma Gun, Axe on leader

Grey Hunters x5, Plasma Gun, Axe on leader

Grey Hunters x5, Plasma Gun, Axe on leader

 

Long Fangs x6, 5x Lascanon

Long Fangs x6, 5x Heavy Bolter

 

Rhino x3

 

VANGUARD

 

Arjac

 

Wolf Guard with Jump Packs x10

WGPL has TH/SS

7x SB/SS

2x CS/CS

 

Wolf Guard Terminators x7

2x TH/SS

5x CP/SS

 

Wolf Guard Terminators x7

2x TH/SS

5x SB/SS

 

 

Rhinos with GH move midfield and block LOS to ragnar/priest/bjorn

 

Heavy Bolter Long Fangs to help clear screening in prep for the Wolf Guard (being able to move these and ignore penatly is cool, especially on turn 1 when they'll be AP -2), Lascannons to help antitank.

 

Alternatively I might swap some points to kit one GH squad out more. The HB fangs can then start in a rhino whilst the GH outflank.

 

Wolf Guard Bomb comes in turn 2 with arjac around the priest and ragnar. Lots of plasma (+1 to hit with strat)/storm bolters and then hopefully rerollable +2 charges. Ragnar/Bjorn in there to blitz and consolidate 6".

 

Problems are speed after arrival. The rhinos can hold some board control but are easy to pick off T1 (especially if you go 2nd) when theres less threats on the board (although long fangs also need dealt with).

 

Flyers could be a big problem, although at least the JP wolf guard can charge them. 

 

With 10 CP (+1 from bjorn) theres enough there to get some mileage from the new strats

 

Turn 1

1 CP spent on HB Long Fangs

1 CP spent on LC Long Fangs

1 CP when ragnar inevitably advances 1"

1 reroll wound/armour save

 

Turn 2

1 CP on one squad of Long Fangs

1 CP for Champions

1 CP for Executioners

1 reroll wound/armour save

 

That then leaves you with 2CP going forwards, and you should hopefully be killing a character in a turn in melee to get 1 back.

Edited April 5, 2020 by DanPesci

[Karack Blackstone]

Bjorn sniping with Twin Lascannons on enemy Characters has never been so appealing a thought as right now.

[PeteySödes]

Bjorn sniping with Twin Lascannons on enemy Characters has never been so appealing a thought as right now.

How are you managing that?

[Karack Blackstone]

 

Bjorn sniping with Twin Lascannons on enemy Characters has never been so appealing a thought as right now.

How are you managing that?

 

Wait, it's melee isn't it?

 

Was a fun thought; oh well, my mistake.

[Oshikai]

I am intrigued by running some cheapish Wolf Guard Terminators with SB/SS. Watched a Battlereport the other Night (Hellstorm Wargaming ). He ran two Units of Ten and one smaller Unit, also Arjac. Tactical Doctrine and Fury of the Champions did a lot of work. Of course one has to keep in Mind that the Opponent played Orks with T Shirt Saves, but still, I liked what I saw. 

[theprophetofwar]

Obviously haven't been able to play them, but I have been trying to settle on a wolf guard TDA pack for a long while. It's hard to know how many points to commit to them but I have settled on at least Arjac dropping T2 with a 6 body squad with a Th/ss lead, cf/ss, sb/ss, sb/ss cf/SB and an assault cannon/cf (Simply because I love that model). Supported by jump wolf priest. I think chainfists are underrated for the damage vs points compared to hammers and basic fists. They hit a nice cost vs damage middle ground to me. With the stone and auras and strategies, they unload t2 and the ones that do make it to melee will crush things.

The hard part is determining if 27 points on a squad like this is worth the 3 combi plasmas considering there will be casualties, and I'm betting the guns will die first. I really want to use twc and tda wolfguard...

(Rest of list is basically tank rush)

Edited April 6, 2020 by theprophetofwar

[TiguriusX]

Obviously haven't been able to play them, but I have been trying to settle on a wolf guard TDA pack for a long while. It's hard to know how many points to commit to them but I have settled on at least Arjac dropping T2 with a 6 body squad with a Th/ss lead, cf/ss, sb/ss, sb/ss cf/SB and an assault cannon/cf (Simply because I love that model). Supported by jump wolf priest. I think chainfists are underrated for the damage vs points compared to hammers and basic fists. They hit a nice cost vs damage middle ground to me. With the stone and auras and strategies, they unload t2 and the ones that do make it to melee will crush things.

The hard part is determining if 27 points on a squad like this is worth the 3 combi plasmas considering there will be casualties, and I'm betting the guns will die first. I really want to use twc and tda wolfguard...

(Rest of list is basically tank rush)

 

Join me in bringing our terminators to glory!!!

 

I am diving all in with a full 10 man holding combi plasmas with 5 or so chainfists and SS

 

They are not as vulnerable to counter attack as you think because when you keep a support RP nearby the terminators have the armor of russ for melee units and they can chooser of the slain most beta strike shooting units (a unit that counter deploys to eliminate a threat...like plasma inceptors etc.)

Edited April 6, 2020 by TiguriusX

[DanPesci]

 

Obviously haven't been able to play them, but I have been trying to settle on a wolf guard TDA pack for a long while. It's hard to know how many points to commit to them but I have settled on at least Arjac dropping T2 with a 6 body squad with a Th/ss lead, cf/ss, sb/ss, sb/ss cf/SB and an assault cannon/cf (Simply because I love that model). Supported by jump wolf priest. I think chainfists are underrated for the damage vs points compared to hammers and basic fists. They hit a nice cost vs damage middle ground to me. With the stone and auras and strategies, they unload t2 and the ones that do make it to melee will crush things.

The hard part is determining if 27 points on a squad like this is worth the 3 combi plasmas considering there will be casualties, and I'm betting the guns will die first. I really want to use twc and tda wolfguard...

(Rest of list is basically tank rush)

 

Join me in bringing our terminators to glory!!!

 

I am diving all in with a full 10 man holding combi plasmas with 5 or so chainfists and SS

 

They are not as vulnerable to counter attack as you think because when you keep a support RP nearby the terminators have the armor of russ for melee units and they can chooser of the slain most beta strike shooting units (a unit that counter deploys to eliminate a threat...like plasma inceptors etc.)

 

 

 

Ahh I hadnt thought of the rune priest yet. Thats a good point about CotS and probably worth more than a terminator or 2 from each squad (in the list ive been looking at). Time to shuffle some points around :)

[theprophetofwar]

Grand scheme of things I will have a rune priest nearby, either Njal tda to save relics, or simple jump pack. Hero hammer, stack all the buffs, haha

Hadn't even thought about cots yet, excellent point

Edited April 6, 2020 by theprophetofwar

[TiguriusX]

Current 40k is all about stacking those stratagems and special rules for the best synergy around.

 

For example...this needs to be confirmed in an FAQ but we may be able to use our free WL trait to give a wolf priest saga of majesty.

 

He now has a massive 9" canticle of hate bubble

Edited April 6, 2020 by TiguriusX

[TheWolfLord]

I think the key to our success is combining our Vigilus rules with our new canticles to put turn 1 pressure on the opponent.

 

Then follow that up with our hard hitters for turn 2.

 

A stalker pack with 2x10 man units of Bloodclaws in Drop Pods will come down turn 1 only 9” away from the enemy lines.

 

Combined with a jump pack Wolf Priest advancing will put those units in range of his +2” charge canticle. The first unit will have a 7” charge and then if successful you’ve got the strat from Vigilus for a 7” charge on 3D6 picking the highest 2D6 for the second unit.

 

Good odds of making contact with any chaff or screens and 100 Bloodclaw attacks should clear most.

 

Your opponent then the choice between dealing with Bloodclaws in their lines or blunting our 2nd phase of units such as Wulfen.

You can even drop in some HQs with the Bloodclaws or in a third Drop Pod.

 

I know Drop Pods aren’t the cheapest but I think it’s worth trying as even stock Bloodclaws can hit hard now.

[DanPesci]

I think the key to our success is combining our Vigilus rules with our new canticles to put turn 1 pressure on the opponent.

 

Then follow that up with our hard hitters for turn 2.

 

A stalker pack with 2x10 man units of Bloodclaws in Drop Pods will come down turn 1 only 9” away from the enemy lines.

 

Combined with a jump pack Wolf Priest advancing will put those units in range of his +2” charge canticle. The first unit will have a 7” charge and then if successful you’ve got the strat from Vigilus for a 7” charge on 3D6 picking the highest 2D6 for the second unit.

 

Good odds of making contact with any chaff or screens and 100 Bloodclaw attacks should clear most.

 

 

Ah I dont know the vigilus stuff for wolves (only ever used it with my admech) but that certainly sounds nasty. How are you finding drop pods this edition?

 

 

 

For example...this needs to be confirmed in an FAQ but we may be able to use our free WL trait to give a wolf priest saga of majesty.

 

He now has a massive 9" canticle of hate bubble

 

Thats...pretty nasty too!

 

 

 

 

I Updated my Wolf Guard based list - dropped some terminators and a few bits of wargear to fit njal in:

 

BATALLION

 

Bjorn - Lascannons

Ragnar

Wolf Priest - Jump pack, Wulfen Stone

 

Grey Hunters x5, Plasma Gun

Grey Hunters x5, Plasma Gun

Grey Hunters x5, Plasma Gun

 

Long Fangs x6, 5x Lascannon

Long Fangs x6, 5x Heavy Bolter

 

Rhino x3

 

VANGUARD

 

Arjac

Njal in TDA (stormcaller, tempests wrath, wolf spirits)

 

Wolf Guard with Jump Packs x9

WGPL has TH/SS

6x SB/SS

2x CS/CS

 

Wolf Guard Terminators x6

1x TH/SS

5x CP/SS

 

Wolf Guard Terminators x6

1x TH/SS

5x SB/SS

 

 

The tossup here for me was between njal/JPRP -

 

Njal is 10pts more but knows more powers, can cast more, can deny more, and gets the +1

JPRP has better movement (less relying on advance rolls to keep up), and can be given the Talisman.

In the end I went for Njal for the extra power knowledge, and better chance of getting stormcaller off.

Edited April 7, 2020 by DanPesci

[Karhedron]

Current 40k is all about stacking those stratagems and special rules for the best synergy around.

Agreed. The other thing that is important is to minimise the number of "moving parts" in each combo. If a combo relies on a Psychic power and a Canticle both going off, there is a high risk of one failing (or the power getting Denied). If the combo still works (albeit at reduced effectiveness) it may be worth the risk. However if the failure of one part would leave a squad twiddling their thumbs in front of enemy guns, it might be better to look elsewhere.

 

Fury of Champions and a Wolf Lord is a cheap way to make your TDAWG hit on rerollable 2s which is a lot of dakka for 1CP. Swap for combi-plas and add "Keen Senses" for even more effective firepower, again with no risks.

 

I play 3 different armies in 40K and I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that baked-in bonuses and abilities are the key to a successful army. Build your army around reliable synergies and use limited/unreliable resources like stratagems, psychic powers and canticles to address specific threats. That way you are less likely to find your army running out of steam if you exhaust your CPs or run into an opponent with lots of Denies.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Karhedron

[sturguard]

Wolf's Eye is only for long fangs though correct?

[Karhedron]

Wolf's Eye is only for long fangs though correct?

You are right of course, thanks for spotting that. I actually meant "Keen senses" as this negates the -1 to-Hit for firing both barrels of the combi weapon. I will correct the OP.

[theprophetofwar]

I wish it blended a bit better, but I think a more supportive Primaris wolf Lord with the Stormsong sniper rifle has a place. Give him beast slayer and you can trigger the saga more easily.

I'm curious about the new combos we can create with lesser used sagas with a bonus warlord trait, and where to use them best.

I tend to like the battle leader less, but his reroll wounds aura may match better, though he is less accurate to hit.

Edited April 7, 2020 by theprophetofwar

[TiguriusX]

I wish it blended a bit better, but I think a more supportive Primaris wolf Lord with the Stormsong sniper rifle has a place. Give him beast slayer and you can trigger the saga more easily.

I'm curious about the new combos we can create with lesser used sagas with a bonus warlord trait, and where to use them best.

I tend to like the battle leader less, but his reroll wounds aura may match better, though he is less accurate to hit.

I have a phobos wolf lord as my true war lord.

 

He has fire and fade with morkai bolts.

 

12" no DS bubble

Reroll aura

He has 30" gun and can walk out to see a target then fire and fade back out of LOS

 

He has lots of flexible movement with WL trait. He can actually keep pace with jump characters due to WL trait extra 6+d6 movement

 

The morkai bolts relic lets me drop a WGBL buff where I want it every turn.

 

Super support focus but cant fight well so keep out of trouble

[theprophetofwar]

I like that idea too. Phobos traits are good. When thinking of wolves as less charging berserkers and more along the lines of pragmatic "right tool for the job" types, I do love the image/idea of a sniper (or shoot and fade) Jarl leading sniper and heavy ordinance squads taking out the enemy armor and leadership as the rest of the army closes. Edited April 7, 2020 by theprophetofwar

[Gherrick]

Does saga of majesty affect Omni-scrambler?

[Karhedron]

Does saga of majesty affect Omni-scrambler?

Good question. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't. It is not covered by any of the exemptions so I would vote a cautious "Yes".