Building Synergy: SW SotB Options

[Kallas]

 

Does saga of majesty affect Omni-scrambler?

Good question. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't. It is not covered by any of the exemptions so I would vote a cautious "Yes".

Mechanically, yes; although the Codex: Space Marines relic Vox Espiritum which does basically the same thing (+3" to aura ranges) was errata'd to maxing out at 9", so it doesn't combine.

 

I would expect that GW will likely do something similar for Saga of Majesty: until they do, enjoy 15" anti-deep strike bubbles!

[Karack Blackstone]

 

 

Does saga of majesty affect Omni-scrambler?

Good question. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't. It is not covered by any of the exemptions so I would vote a cautious "Yes".

Mechanically, yes; although the Codex: Space Marines relic Vox Espiritum which does basically the same thing (+3" to aura ranges) was errata'd to maxing out at 9", so it doesn't combine.

 

I would expect that GW will likely do something similar for Saga of Majesty: until they do, enjoy 15" anti-deep strike bubbles!

 

I think the issue will be this will eventually be FAQ'ed into no longer correct, so 9" is more intended, while 15" is fun and all, don't expect it to remain.

 

What else have people found or expect to work?

 

SkyClaws trump Swiftclaws right now, how might they be buffed by units, or are they just not good enough without too heavy a support investment?

 

WG TDA?

 

WG PA? With or without JP's?

 

GH's? I always give them CSwd's, however, that's pretty much common knowledge.

 

GH's on the cheap, or do you give them some bells and whistles? I am debating a 6 man GH pack, 4 GH's, 1 GHPL with BP, BG, CSwd, and a WGPL with CSwd/SS for what, 64 points?

 

BC's, SC's, SyC's, anything else of note? BC's benefit mightily from nearby Wulfen... so a question there.

 

What's the new "default" Wulfen pack folks are looking at right now?

 

A Blob of 2 BC packs with 1 Wulfen pack in the middle charging up the board or in rides might be expensive, but with nearby support could be seriously strong.

 

Also, what HQ's are we able to best shoehorn or swap out on the battlefield?

 

I figure WL, WGBL, and WP are the best all-rounders, and can swap out as needed based on what survives and reposition pretty well enough. JP or TWM would aid this immensely.

 

Any plans for redundancy, or cookie-cutter army sections?

 

Back when we were 750 points per HQ, people would make said army chunks in such a value; it was a nice design paradigm, however now is clearly not back then.

 

---

 

What Detachment minimums are folks thinking of, such as, 1, 2, or 3 Battalions, or if interested, 1 Brigade, and what is the base price of entry, what do you squeeze in to have the most points left over to spend on the bells and whistles, whilst meeting the bare minimum requirements to take said Detachment?

 

Edit:

 

Clearly the minimums of each Detachment should provide unit synergy as well; what are your "must haves" on the cheap in each case?

Don't forget to maximize your points for tabletop performance!

BC's with a WP is great; just meet your required stuff first, although I've found 2 Bat's is about right for my plans.

3 Bat's is pretty painful minimum wise, however, there's reason on my part to suspect it'd be worthwhile with the correct build and MSU.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Karack Blackstone

[Karhedron]

What Detachment minimums are folks thinking of, such as, 1, 2, or 3 Battalions, or if interested, 1 Brigade, and what is the base price of entry, what do you squeeze in to have the most points left over to spend on the bells and whistles, whilst meeting the bare minimum requirements to take said Detachment?

I think for 1500-2000 point games I will probably go with 2 Battalions. I am not convinced that having to fill out 3 x FA, Heavy and Elite is worth the extra 2CPs.

 

I have normally run Grey Hunters in the past but will be reinforcing them with some Intercessors going forwards. Our Troops are pretty decent and I think a bit of extra investment in equipment often goes along way. I normally double down on special weapons for my Grey Hunters and my ABR Intercessors will be getting Thunder Hammers and the Veteran Intercessor strat.

 

This is why I favour dual battalion over Brigade. The points saved on those mandatory slots are often well spent on some key upgrades to make sure my units can get the job done on the battlefield.

[Karack Blackstone]

That's my initial idea as well.

 

For the sake of the thread, what would get you to consider a Brigade?

 

Not that you must, just hypothetically, how/why would the bonuses have to line up to get you to at least consider a Brigade?

 

And for the record, I Figure 6 MSU PA units, either IC's or GH's, no matter the kit, is going to be a solid base, the problem is larger units, if ever needed, may start to cost too much.

 

Current Ld rolls do not seem to wisely reward larger pack sizes, so I may be getting more SW PA boxes to be able to make more PL's, both WG and GH.

[TiguriusX]

That's my initial idea as well.

 

For the sake of the thread, what would get you to consider a Brigade?

 

Not that you must, just hypothetically, how/why would the bonuses have to line up to get you to at least consider a Brigade?

 

And for the record, I Figure 6 MSU PA units, either IC's or GH's, no matter the kit, is going to be a solid base, the problem is larger units, if ever needed, may start to cost too much.

 

Current Ld rolls do not seem to wisely reward larger pack sizes, so I may be getting more SW PA boxes to be able to make more PL's, both WG and GH.

 

IMO if a brigade gave more than 2 extra CP over a double battalion it would be considered

 

Say for example 15 CP...mighty tempting there

 

All that extra CP would be nice

 

I personally would turn the entire brigade into a stalker detachment and open up more combos and buy extra relics (taking 3 total)

[Karack Blackstone]

14 possible? Also more likely.

 

Stalker? Good idea.

[Karhedron]

For the sake of the thread, what would get you to consider a Brigade?

Probably simply playing larger games in my case. My standard game size is 1500 points, occasionally we push the boat out to 1750. Squeezing a Brigade into that is possible (well, at 1750 at least) but pretty much every unit has to be bare bones and most units have to be the cheapest option in the slot (e.g. lone Cyberwolves, Sniper Eliminators etc).

 

I find that building an army like that tends to struggle as some upgrades are necessary and the cheapest units tends to be lacking in the anti-tank department. If I was playing 2000+ points then I think a Brigade would become more realistic. I would still be able to buy the units and upgrades I want to build effective synergies whilst meeting the mandatory slots.

 

I do agree though that I feel a Brigade should grant a bit more than just +2CPs over 2 Battalions.

[Kallas]

That's one of the core problems with the detachment system: different factions fill out different detachments with different ease.

 

If you up Brigades to 15CP, Guard now bring 20+ CP in every 1500+ point game: and they kind of can't spend it all. On the other hand, Custodes can barely ever fill a Brigade but could absolutely use that CP well.

 

And like TiguriusX says, 12 isn't really enticing enough for the elite armies because of the big points strain to fill it out; whereas a less elite army can just drop a couple of cheap options in (that might just be wanted anyway).

 

A bit rant-y, but I do kind of wish that each faction had unique values for each of the detachments, as it would allow a lot more fine tuning of the system (and it'd be like one extra table in each Codex, hardly difficult to achieve!).

 

Anyway... I agree with both TiguriusX and Karhedron; it's difficult to squeeze a well balanced force into a Brigade, and then it's not a particularly great payoff compared to double Battalion, especially for Wolves with good HQs that you'll generally want anyway. I think an increase to the CP would be helpful, or honestly just dropping some of the limitations (eg, instead of 3 of each specialism, it's only 2).

 

*shrug*

[Karack Blackstone]

I totally agree with having custom Detachment CP values, and just a table? It's a single chart, describing the CP per detachment type. Number won't need to be specified unless the force can be presumed to be on diminishing returns, forces like Guard can still spend CP well, but maybe they and few others would be even noting to possibly have DmR's on CP wise.

 

I'd figure unique CP / Detachment for each force would also help fix some of the army individual balance points.

 

Astartes of all types are realisitically CP Starved, but are listed as Elite and Special Forces like units. More CP.

Guard and Genestealer Cults and even 'Nids are all bodies, bodies, bodies. Fewer CP per Detachment, maybe some DmR's per above, yet give at least a reasonable minimum so they aren't CP starved.

 

The single biggest issue is CP regen, if at all, when and how. SW's I think are among the few, if not possibly only, Astartes of any type to regen CP currently?

 

All food for thought, and a great concept; the execution would be the crunch, and said crunch would need to withstand dedicated and balanced gameplay.

 

No easy feat, yet also utterly worthwhile.

[Kallas]

Wolf CP Regen is, I believe, actually unique (at least among Astartes) in that Knowledge of the Foe is 0CP to use, meaning you can claw back a little bit each time even when fully expended - normally CP Regen requires an expenditure.

 

Otherwise, I know Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and (I think?) Raven Guard can all CP Regen through Warlord Traits/something. Fists get a Warlord Trait of just straight +d3; White Scars might have a Strat or something similar to Wolves (I'm not familiar enough with them). Although all Astartes can use a Phobos Rune Priest/Librarian with Mind War to potentially get some.

[Gherrick]

IMO, CP shouldn't even be driven by detachments, so the entire premise is kinda dumb. Base it on each HQ choice having a corresponding CP value, much like Bjorn getting a bonus CP. CP by definition reflects the overall military prowess of your army, which is directly tied to the quality of your leadership. HQs are the great equalizer, and an IG HQ shouldn't have nearly the same CP weight as an Astartes HQ, for example.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Gherrick you are so correct. In editions past there was a mechanic similar to that. Man it may not have even been the tabletop game but I think it was. Maybe 4th edition? The space marines and eldar had a better value than the next tier down which was chaos space marines then below that tier was guard. I totally forget what it was in regards to. I’ve been at this too long.

[Kallas]

Gherrick you are so correct. In editions past there was a mechanic similar to that. Man it may not have even been the tabletop game but I think it was. Maybe 4th edition? The space marines and eldar had a better value than the next tier down which was chaos space marines then below that tier was guard. I totally forget what it was in regards to. I’ve been at this too long.

Strategy Rating, I believe it was called, and it was mostly a predetermined number for a whole faction.

 

It's fuzzy, but I think it was predominantly used to determine attacker/defender in scenarios, though that could be entirely wrong...

[Wolf Guard Dan]

 

Gherrick you are so correct. In editions past there was a mechanic similar to that. Man it may not have even been the tabletop game but I think it was. Maybe 4th edition? The space marines and eldar had a better value than the next tier down which was chaos space marines then below that tier was guard. I totally forget what it was in regards to. I’ve been at this too long.

Strategy Rating, I believe it was called, and it was mostly a predetermined number for a whole faction.

It's fuzzy, but I think it was predominantly used to determine attacker/defender in scenarios, though that could be entirely wrong...

Yes! Strategy rating! We are on the right track now!

[Karhedron]

Access to CP Regen (or lack thereof) can be a big factor.

 

I am sorely tempted by a bare bones Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with the "Esoteric Lore" Warlord trait (gain a CP on a 5+ whenever the opponent uses a stratagem) and "Terrify" (turn off Overwatch on target squad) seems pretty solid and doesn't interfere with Doctrines

[Gherrick]

The entire point of CP is it being a limited resource. CP regen should be part of the scenario, not a function of an army. Meet objective X, regain Y CP, etc.

[Guest Triszin]

I know everyone is saying 10+ points are needed, I'm just trying to think of a fun list, that i can go barebones points on. Like a bat and 1 specialist deteachment

[Gherrick]

I know everyone is saying 10+ points are needed, I'm just trying to think of a fun list, that i can go barebones points on. Like a bat and 1 specialist deteachment

For how many points? 1500, 1750, 2000...it will vary a lot based on that.

[Karack Blackstone]

I think CP from HQ's is the single biggest fix 8th Ed. needs in terms of CP and also, some attached methods of CP regen.

 

The wolves and a 0 CP strategem to regain 1 CP is pretty frickin' boss.

 

As far as the Detachment setup Triszin, the problem is more that without a points total, 1 or 2 Bat + 1 Specialist group can't be figured out as to how to best kit things out to gain access to more toys.

 

As in, if you are playing 2K, it's possibly worth it right now to go with 2 Bat's and a single Spec Det', as that's 11 CP and the mentioned above in my post 0 CP for 1 CP strat is possibly just way too good.

 

Troops and an HQ charge, and/or Heroic? It says Characters; WGPL are characters, are the various GH/BC/SC/etc. PL's as well?

[Kallas]

0 CP for 1 CP strat is possibly just way too good.

 

Nah, it has a rider that it must be triggered when an enemy Character is killed in the Fight Phase. It's got its limitations; and you have to bear in mind that, in Matched Play at least, you can only use it once per phase, so even if you kill 2+ Characters in one turn you'll only get 1CP.

 

Is it good? Yes, absolutely. Too good? No.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Triszin, I think there is room for a list without a lot of CP. You just have to take strong units with built in synergy. Your dreadnought lists will probably still be strong. But eventually you’ll run out of CP for the buffs to keep them alive. Wulfen are another strong unit that doesn’t need a lot of buffs to be decent.

 

It’s quite doable but not optimal. Even one battalion puts you in a better spot.

[DanPesci]

I know everyone is saying 10+ points are needed, I'm just trying to think of a fun list, that i can go barebones points on. Like a bat and 1 specialist deteachment

 

 

Ive been working on a fun 2k pt WG list that uses a batallion, vanguard and having bjorn in there for the plus 1 gets you to 10.

 

Id imagine you could do the same running lots of dreads instead of the wolf guard for a fun list - and if doing that you'd probably need less CP for strats anyway (ie theres only so many CP you can spend on dreads each turn - WG you could easy spend 3-4 just on one unit)

Edited April 11, 2020 by DanPesci

[DanPesci]

The entire point of CP is it being a limited resource. CP regen should be part of the scenario, not a function of an army. Meet objective X, regain Y CP, etc.

 

Totally agree here (and really like the previous idea about CP being attached to HQ).

[Karack Blackstone]

What specific go-to combo's do you have, or want to try out the most?

 

And please, list them all! We need to vet and figure out what has the broadest ranges to work best, as the HQ that supports BC's one way may aid GH's enough otherwise, and other combos where if the unit to be buffed is lost, a redundant pack nearby to have the HQ shift and back up instead may prove vital!

 

Wulfen should always at least have ... what?

 

Same for BC's, I'd say the ol' WP and WGPL is a must. What about a WGBL now? Worth it? Not? Why may help; I don't see a WGBL doing enough alone, however spare points, toss one in if able!

[Karhedron]

A Wolf Priest with Jump Pack and Canticle of Hate is a must have if you are planning to bring in melee units from Reserve. Units On the Hunt or Terminators are probably the best candidates for this. Team up with Ragnar or Wilden for a rerollable 7" charge. The Priest can heal wounded models and chant Litany of Hate in future turns to provide full rerolls to-Hit once our charge bonus has worn off.