lack of CP

[Hymnblade]

Grimaldus gives you a lot of stuff for his point cost, but the tradeoff is that his litanies aren't a reliable as a Breviary or Wise Orator MoS. If your game plan critically relies on certain litanies which you can't do without (and especially if you need them every turn), you may not really be saving CP by taking him.

 

I'm a bit miffed that everyone else gets a free litany and we don't, but some of the free litanies are pretty bad anyway. If we got Litany of Divine Protection free, it would be awesome. If we got Vow of Retribution free, eh.

[Schlitzaf]

I mean by raw we still imperial fist one. We only don’t get the IF stuff from IF supplement

[Medjugorje]

thats a point we should write to GW.

 

In one of the last podcasts the main writer of our supplement told us that they hear the community and they read the critic about that. In a nice way it could help if we write them things like that.

[Schlitzaf]

Already had done so.

[MarshalMittermeier]

...so, question:

what if , instead of trying to get to, say, 14-15 CP with 5-man squads, we get to 9-10 CP with lots of 10-man squads?

in theory, that is *another way of getting command points* rather than using 3-4 command points to use Emperor's Will on 15-20 marines, you use 2 command points for 20 marines.

 

the same applies to many stratagems.

[Hymnblade]

Each stratagem can only be used once in a phase. So it can make sense to take a big squad to make an efficient target for stratagems, but it doesn't make so much sense to take a bunch of them. Also, even large squads of Troops are often not very good targets for stratagems when compared to things like characters, Vanguard Veterans, etc.

[Medjugorje]

but 20 man suck at all. The enemy can still put some CPs on this unit too - or psychic powers.

 

I think the best way is to have 2 Battallion and 1-3 working units which should decide the game like Vanguard Veterans, Assault Centurions or Assault Terminators.

[MarshalMittermeier]

but 20 man suck at all. The enemy can still put some CPs on this unit too - or psychic powers.

 

I think the best way is to have 2 Battallion and 1-3 working units which should decide the game like Vanguard Veterans, Assault Centurions or Assault Terminators.

 

 

interesting. the more i think about it, the more i agree.

 

10 Assault Terminators and 10 Vanguards shouldn't really cost more than 650 points(i have some even cheaper setups tbh). with 1350 points you can easily fit two very shooty battalions to hold objectives/soften up the enemy plus HQs/support units.

[Medjugorje]

to be honest. This edition is very simple. You need a super game mechanic or unit which should be buffed. For that you need CPs and Buff Characters.

 

For example:

 

The best unit in melee and in shooting are Assault Cents.

- Then I take one unit of 6 (of course maximum)

- then i need CPs - so I take 6x 5 tacticals and 4 HQs.

- Cents have a weakness in their long range output - so the tactical units all get Lascannons.

- The best buff characters for them are reroll to hit and reroll to wounds --> Helbrecht and Lieutenant

- Then I need more input for them --> thee lieutenant get the 4++ relic and  a Chaplain is taken  for 5+++ litany - to get all things done he get the ancient breviary.

- If the enemy have lots of options to deepstrike or anything else we need screens - so we take 3x scouts instead of tacticals.

- last option is a character who can fullfill more roles and will be the flexible thing in my army - so I will take a Marshal with Hammer and Shield

 

 

(not finished this example but most times i build my armies this way)

[MarshalMittermeier]

to be honest. This edition is very simple. You need a super game mechanic or unit which should be buffed. For that you need CPs and Buff Characters.

 

For example:

 

The best unit in melee and in shooting are Assault Cents.

- Then I take one unit of 6 (of course maximum)

- then i need CPs - so I take 6x 5 tacticals and 4 HQs.

- Cents have a weakness in their long range output - so the tactical units all get Lascannons.

- The best buff characters for them are reroll to hit and reroll to wounds --> Helbrecht and Lieutenant

- Then I need more input for them --> thee lieutenant get the 4++ relic and  a Chaplain is taken  for 5+++ litany - to get all things done he get the ancient breviary.

- If the enemy have lots of options to deepstrike or anything else we need screens - so we take 3x scouts instead of tacticals.

- last option is a character who can fullfill more roles and will be the flexible thing in my army - so I will take a Marshal with Hammer and Shield

 

 

(not finished this example but most times i build my armies this way)

 

 

by your logic, if i could get a Brigade detachment including a couple of superunits, should i go for it?

 

example:

4 x Tacticals with missile launchers (imho fit more with boltgun profile)

2 x scouts (total Troops cost less than 450 points)

buffbots Captain & Lieutenant; Chaplain with Jump Pack (budget: 250 points

3 x Attack Bikes (cheap fillers; no points for anything more expensive. total budget 130-150 points)

1 x unit of 2 Company Veterans(bodyguards/cheap filler for one elite slot; should be around 50 points cost)

3 x Heavy Support units (budget: 400-500 points)

2 x Elites large units (600-700 points budget; i.e. 10 assault temrinators + 10 vanguards cost less than 650 points)

 

should i go for something like that? funny thing, it is actualy closer to the models i have.

Edited April 27, 2020 by MarshalMittermeier

[Medjugorje]

the main problem here is that we dont have really good assault units. I played Blood Angels in the last big Team - tournament in prague a few month ago and because of their strange restrictions i had to play one Brigade. And its hard to fill all slots there. But if you dont want to max all out then do it.

 

For a normal game - even tournament it should be okay. Like i said - its not finished and just a example. Do and try brother

Edited April 27, 2020 by Medjugorje

[Hymnblade]

Brigades can work, but it's only +1CP over a double Battalion plus vanguard/spearhead, and you usually have to pay a fast attack tax (and maybe a heavy support tax). If you're taking 4-5 HQ anyway, it may not be worthwhile.

 

the main problem here is that we dont have really good assault units. I played Blood Angels in the last big Team - tournament in prague a few month ago

 

Yeah, I deeply wish we had something like Sanguinary Guard with good movement, multiple wounds, and weapons that deal more than 1 damage.

 

THSS Terminators could be our go-to if they didn't cost just as much as Assault Centurions for half the stats. Bleh.

[Acebaur]

the main problem here is that we dont have really good assault units. I played Blood Angels in the last big Team - tournament in prague a few month ago and because of their strange restrictions i had to play one Brigade. And its hard to fill all slots there. But if you dont want to max all out then do it.

 

For a normal game - even tournament it should be okay. Like i said - its not finished and just a example. Do and try brother

 

 

We have VV and Assault Centurions, both of which are very good in CC

[MarshalMittermeier]

what about Aggressors? are they worth it as a 6-man unit to buff up? 

Edited April 28, 2020 by MarshalMittermeier

[Medjugorje]

 

the main problem here is that we dont have really good assault units. I played Blood Angels in the last big Team - tournament in prague a few month ago and because of their strange restrictions i had to play one Brigade. And its hard to fill all slots there. But if you dont want to max all out then do it.

 

For a normal game - even tournament it should be okay. Like i said - its not finished and just a example. Do and try brother

 

 

We have VV and Assault Centurions, both of which are very good in CC

 

no - i mean the slot. 

 

HQ - Captain, Lieutenant,.... everything is good

Troop = Scouts, Intercessors,...

Elite = Sword Brethren, Assault Cents, VV,...

everything is good...

 

but Bikes? Trikes? I would say Suppressors are good but they are very expensive so far.

[MarshalMittermeier]

not everything in a list needs to be cc oriented though... personally i'd prefer a 2:1 shooty/cc ratio. allows one to pop possible transports and/or bubblewrap units before the crucial charges.

 

so for fast attack, you can use landspeeders(expensive option) or attack bikes/scout bikes (cheap option)

[MarshalMittermeier]

...you are all right. i just can't do it efficiently. i already take 6 troops (brigade vs 2 battalions). i have no issues with 3 x heavy support (i think some shooting is NEEDED), and obviously our elites have so much juice, but then assuming both 1 x HQ and 3 x attack bikes are taxes, one lieutenant is cheaper than 3 x attack bikes.

 

2 x battalions it is.

 

by 6 x troops, 1 x lt, 1 x chaplain, 1 x captain, 1 x champion, i have 11 CP (i need extra relic and extra warlord trait). thats enough for me.

 

also opinion (and this IS cp-relevant): master of sanctity aint worth it. to properly take advantage of it in a reliable way, you need the chaplain relic, and that will result in -2 CP. IMHO the opportunity cost is too great; the chaplain should just spam the feel no pain litany on your most important unit.

 

here are the statistics:

reciting one litany. success chance: 4/6(66,7%). not sure, not reliable, but above average.

reciting two litanies without relic help. success chance for BOTH to be succesful:

4/6 times 4/6= 16/36, below average. all the while, the chances to inspire with the "original" litany are still 4/6- cannot fail and re-incite. so, Master of Sanctity adds further un-reliability to the chaplain (already unreliable with 4/6, then add a cost of 1 cp for an unreliable effect).

 

so if you take master of sanctity, he will be quite unreliable unless you spend the additional 1 cp for the reroll. so, 2 cps if you want a reliable buff-bot, and once he gets killed its all gone. with the kind of stratagems available to templars, i just don't think 2 cps are worth it as opportunity cost. exception: some safe primaris chaplain buff-bot that buffs repulsor executioner shooting or something. he will hang back and cast again and again, whereas the jump pack chaplain that we often use would be more exposed and only recite on 1-2 important turns, where stratagems would probably be best used.

[Hymnblade]

I'm starting to feel the same way about Master of Sanctity. I think it can be worth it for Litany of Hate (if you don't have a Chapter Master aura) or maybe for Relentless Persecution (if you don't have a Lieutenant), but often it's a trap.

[Medjugorje]

I'm starting to feel the same way about Master of Sanctity. I think it can be worth it for Litany of Hate (if you don't have a Chapter Master aura) or maybe for Relentless Persecution (if you don't have a Lieutenant), but often it's a trap.

there are just two ways i use them

 

First one is litany of hate + canticle of hate on a Chaplain with jump pack + Crusader helmet

Then another Chaplain has the 5+++ litany and the ancient breviary. In this case I play strong deepstriking units or Vanguard Veterans because they must win the game and need that support.

 

Or just one MoS with ancient breviary - this time i use him if I want to buff a big very important thing like an LRC or an Leviathan which is my "working unit"

Edited April 29, 2020 by Medjugorje