Distraction Carnifex

[jay170788]

Hey all I am a returning player to the game and am planning purchases for a 2k list. I have the list built with the exception of approx 145 points. I am looking for a distraction carnifex style unit to draw some attention. I have some fast moving units in my army to accompany it plus some relocation with DMC and duplicity. I was wondering what people have had more mileage with a Maulerfiend or a Heldrake. I know they aren’t the most competitive things in the dex but with the 140 points I couldn’t think of a lot else.

[WarriorFish]

I use a Maulerfiend with my CSM, and if he's one thing it's a fire magnet Pretty quick too so you can bound him up the field to force your opponent to respond. Probably won't last more than a couple of turns but the job is likely done by then, and you might get some killing in too (Daemonforge Stratagem and the tendrils can put some hurt out). Heldrake could do the same theoretically but I don't have one yet, might be a case of what targets they like best? The Heldrake can zip in quick to attack a key backfield unit, a sure way to get your opponent's attention however briefly

 

I think both would work well in such a role for Sons but I'm sure others can provide more detailed experiences, in the meantime do you have any models yet or is it all planning currently? What about a colour scheme?

[jay170788]

Nothing built yet. Just ordered a couple of boxes so just awaiting delivery to get started during furlough leave. With regards paint scheme I am going for The Crimson Sons, painting as pre-heresy Thousand Sons with the metallic red armour.

[WarriorFish]

Plenty for us all to look forward to! The 30k scheme is great and always pops so I'm keen to see that. It would help others if you can post your planned 2,000 points list so they have a better idea of what you're doing, as it could change their advice as to which might be the better choice

[jay170788]

Current 2k plan is as follows, all Cult of Magic;

 

Ahriman

2 x DPoT

 

Cultists

Rubrics

Tzaangors

Tzaangor Shaman

 

2 x 3 Tzaangor Enlightened with bows

 

 

Triple sorcerer and Magnus Supreme command

 

 

This leaves me 140 points. Sensible option would most likely be rubrics or something but am not going competitive. This uses start collecting box, supreme command set and aether war. Then just a couple other boxes.

[Closet Skeleton]

Distraction Carnifex isn't a real tactic and is only a popular phrase because of an out of date 1d4 chan article. Controlling what your opponent has to deal with is important but a 2k list can always easily deal with a single vehicle so throwing one in a list is just giving your opponent easy targeting options which is the exact opposite of that.

 

If you're bringing Magnus you can't use another unit as a distraction for him, that's not how Daemon Primarchs work. The problem with Heldrakes is that they're useless in anything but a harrassment role and then die too quickly when against the opponent's close range firepower, put a Heldrake in that list and it will just be ignored because Magnus has to die.

 

Mauler fiends can do actual damage (but are reliant on stratagem support) and are fast in a 6" range warptime faction so are probably better than Heldrakes, but Magnus often steals warptime priority so that would help the heldrake in that build.

 

In 4th ed Carnifexes were cheap and the most powerful monster that could be spammed so you could use them as disposable threats, 8th ed you have limited defensive buffs so you want to force your opponent to target the buffed unit. If you have 3 predators you can take a maulerfiend, put weaver of fates on the mauler fiend and then warp time it forwards. This is makes it hard for your opponent because he has to choose between letting that 4+ invulnerable save melee unit hit his lines and taking out those easier to kill predators or ignoring the predators and dealing with the bigger threat at the cost of losing his own offensive efficiency. This works with things of the same toughness and wound count like predators and mauler fiends but not with different things, so if you have a mostly infantry army you'd need a advance deploying infantry unit that can be heavily buffed which is basically a large Rubric squad in TS, or a Scarab Occult unit if you want to protect multiwound units. The moment Magnus goes in the list he needs all the defensive buffs and is too expensive to be 'disposable' so you're in a completely different game.

 

Thousand Sons character spam only works when you can ally in 60-80 Plague Bearers, its not how you run actual TS lists. Actual TS lists seem to be garbage competatively but as someone who took non-competative Death Guard to a ton of tournaments in early 8th and unusally won 2-5 games I don't see why TS players shouldn't be able to manage similar win ratios and suspect the supposed non-viability of the faction is more on the players than the rules.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[WarriorFish]

With Magnus in the list unfortunately he is your distraction that will be eating all the AT fire power... Most opponents will ignore a single mid-tier unit with a fire magnet like Magnus on the table :confused: As Closet says you'd need more to provide a viable enough threat to have the chance of drawing your opponent's ire, which would require a significant rework of your list.

 

If you want to stick to the list I'd say might be worth considering the Heldrake? It is fast so you could torpedo it into the nastiest shooty unit your opponent has. Even if it doesn't have much hope of winning that fight it'll at least buy Magnus some breathing room from all the enemy guns, and that's what you're really after :P

[Prot]

The army is a bit of a steep learning curve, and Magnus is a lightning rod. You're going to see a lot of really different match ups affect how you use him. Just be patient with yourself. Don't be too hard on those games where it goes sideways, because it just happens to all of us with a psychic heavy army, especially putting so many points into the man who does nothing wrong. :)

 

One small piece of advice... while you find your way around what you are using, and making model changes to your army as you get comfortable, I would suggest you make your Supreme Command detachment the Cult of Magic since 90% of its benefit is going towards one model.

 

Take your Battalion and try some games with Duplicity in there, or one of the other ones from time to time to give yourself a feel for the cult you like to play, and some of those additional abilities will give you a bit more mileage than Magic's straightforward damage burst. (Magic is great, but lacks the army extending benefits some of the other cults give you.)

 

Welcome aboard!

[jay170788]

Distraction Carnifex isn't a real tactic and is only a popular phrase because of an out of date 1d4 chan article. Controlling what your opponent has to deal with is important but a 2k list can always easily deal with a single vehicle so throwing one in a list is just giving your opponent easy targeting options which is the exact opposite of that.

Thanks for your input Skeleton. Couple of things, I don’t remember saying distraction carnifex is a tactic, it’s merely a term that people are familiar with and thus used it to see what am after.

 

You say throwing one distraction in my list would give an enemy easy targeting and yet when for instance Heldrake is charging to tie up a shooting unit, alongside him is two DPoT and Magnus that is hardly a single distraction.

 

Appreciate all your input without necessarily agreeing with all of it. I agree a maulerfiend will do a bit more damage once getting there but if a Heldrake can tie up a key shooting unit if even for one turn of enemy shooting I would say it has done it’s job. It’s not ideal throwing 140pt’s to die straight away but I can’t find a better use for those points if am honest.

Edited April 6, 2020 by jay170788

[Archaeinox]

If you're looking for a big thing that is cheap and has some utility if it survives (and gets more dangerous as it takes some damage), try the Mutalith Vortex beast. 

 

I believe most things should be taken in pairs (maulerfiends, predators, contemptors), but the Mutalith is the one 'big beasty' that I would recommend taking in singles.

 

I never had my heart broken if I lost it right away.. and with the new Thousand Sons rules (specifically Risen Rubricae) the opponent has much bigger things to shoot at, like your infantry threatening him. This brings up a unique problem: Our troops can suddenly be a huge 'distraction carnifex' by themselves depending upon opponent.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Archaeinox

[Prot]

You know Arch, I think you should do up a small Mutalith tactics thread in the forum. Seriously I think you’re the only one that uses him regularly enough and I think there maybe some new play there. Is he a legal target for Duplicity? ( not to get too far off topic)

 

Seriously though I’d love to see you tactical insight on this unit.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Distraction Carnifex isn't a real tactic and is only a popular phrase because of an out of date 1d4 chan article. Controlling what your opponent has to deal with is important but a 2k list can always easily deal with a single vehicle so throwing one in a list is just giving your opponent easy targeting options which is the exact opposite of that.

Thanks for your input Skeleton. Couple of things, I don’t remember saying distraction carnifex is a tactic, it’s merely a term that people are familiar with and thus used it to see what am after.

 

You say throwing one distraction in my list would give an enemy easy targeting and yet when for instance Heldrake is charging to tie up a shooting unit, alongside him is two DPoT and Magnus that is hardly a single distraction.

 

Appreciate all your input without necessarily agreeing with all of it. I agree a maulerfiend will do a bit more damage once getting there but if a Heldrake can tie up a key shooting unit if even for one turn of enemy shooting I would say it has done it’s job. It’s not ideal throwing 140pt’s to die straight away but I can’t find a better use for those points if am honest.

 

 

Its a term people who've read 1d4 chan sometimes use, its not a general term across the splintered 40k community. I've never heard it at a tournament with the general playing public.

 

More of something you already have is always the way to go over one of something you don't have.

 

Heldrakes are literally the fastest chaos unit, they outpace even warptimed Daemon Princes, the only thing that can combo with a heldrake is another heldrake and Daemon Princes are popular because they can't be targeted so you can't distract people from them.

 

Heldrakes can't really tie up the stuff you really want to tie up unless your opponent hasn't heard of screening. They're the sort of thing that has more of an affect on your opponent's deployment than during the actual fight.

[Archaeinox]

Yes, the only thing that won't get the <Cult of Duplicity> keyword is Magnus, Ahriman, Tzaangor models, and cultists. Mutalith also gets Hateful Assault, if I remember well. 

 

He's a good choice to fling up there with Sorcerous Facade, especially if you are using Dark Matter Crystal to shunt something else up there. I might think of that tactica, let me get a paper out of the way. I hate how all this masters work is suddenly online (it's history and museology, so hard to do online instead of... AT the museum. What a mess!)

Edited April 7, 2020 by Archaeinox