What scattered the primarchs

[b1soul]

As I recall, the pivotal scene etched into our collective memory as readers is in the opening trilogy of the HH series, i.e. Horus witnesses the scattering of the infant primarchs by the Primordial Annihilator

 

Saturnine indicates Erda [who is perhaps the second most powerful Perpetual though still a very distant second relative to the Big E...come to think of it, that would imply she outstrips Malcador...I guess another interesting thought to consider] is heavily involved if not the principal agent. Valdor makes it clear that there was a heavy Chaos/Warp presence in the chambers when the primarchs were scattered, similar to what Valdor himself experienced when battling the sorcerers of Maulland Sen.

 

This leaves me to believe that either Erda was unwittingly used by Chaos or she cooperated/bargained with Chaos to overcome the Emperor's wards. The possibility that she is secretly aligned with Chaos is perhaps less likely, as the Emperor probably would have retaliated against her if that had been the case.

 

Anyone else have other theories of how

 

Erda and Chaos fit together?

 

Or alternatively, did Valdor simply find similarity between the residue of Erda's Warpcraft (not necessarily Chaos-related) and what he felt at Maulland Sen? If Erda is generally a non-Chaos sorcerer a la Malcador, I would find it hard to believe that Erda could overcome the Emperor and Malcador's wards/defences via her own Warpcraft without the aid of higher powers

[Scribe]

All Warp Power, is Chaos.

 

It doesn't matter who uses it.

 

That's how I am resolving this. I'm not going to assume

that Valdor is wrong. This being is the peak of genecraft, elite of elite, perfect. If he says it was the same as what is clearly chaos warpcraft, then that is what it is.

 

Regardless of who used it.

[calgar101]

I would say either she struck a deal with the pantheon or was a pawn.

[DarkChaplain]

Whatever the author feels like did it at any given time. Probably Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau.

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

Until proven otherwise, I am of the belief that was Omegon in a wig.

[mc warhammer]

i'm kinda curious about the actual mechanics of it. what did she use to slingshot the babies into space?

[Xisor]

Psychic phenomena/perils of the Warp entirely accounts for it, in my estimation.

 

There isn't cause/effect any more than "the Emperor tried to manifest a power, and it went not entirely to plan..."

 

See also genies/wishes.

 

Emperor & psykers casting such a big spell, it's got a fair chance of going wrong, or at least not entirely correctly.

 

Look at the Dark Heresy 2 psychic rules: "To cast CREATE PRIMARCH I'm gonna have to be at least level ten, so I'll have to PUSH to get that +3 level bonus, but that's an auto Psychic Phenomena roll, with a +15 modifier. Pfft, it'll probably just rot all the fruit in a 10*PRkm radius, nothing terrible.

 

*rolls d100*

 

Cast!

 

*rolls d100*

 

Gravity inverts?! Maybe I should fate a re-roll. Fine...

 

*rolls a d100*

 

Hey, where did all the caskets go?"

[Scribe]

i'm kinda curious about the actual mechanics of it. what did she use to slingshot the babies into space?

 

It stands to reason that with Chaos working to assist her, she should easily have lowered any wards, and spawned some mini warp storm to handwavium the kids through the warp.

 

I hope, if we are going to get any more retcon's or 'grand reveals' that we can get a definitive 'yes, I tried to bargain with the Chaos Gods, and I lost'. from the Emperor before the end of this.

[mc warhammer]

 

i'm kinda curious about the actual mechanics of it. what did she use to slingshot the babies into space?

 

It stands to reason that with Chaos working to assist her, she should easily have lowered any wards, and spawned some mini warp storm to handwavium the kids through the warp.

 

I hope, if we are going to get any more retcon's or 'grand reveals' that we can get a definitive 'yes, I tried to bargain with the Chaos Gods, and I lost'. from the Emperor before the end of this.

 

yeah, "warp shenanigans" and all that entails seems to be the only choice in my mind, but i'm just wondering whether the book actually details the nuts and bolts

Edited April 7, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Scribe]

I'd be shocked if it is detailed, but the event IS in Valdor, but not in detail.

[Tyriks]

Wasn't there a scene in an earlier Heresy book of some traitors being brought to see that happen by some warp shenanigans?  It's been at least a few years so I might be mistaken.  

[Scribe]

Wasn't there a scene in an earlier Heresy book of some traitors being brought to see that happen by some warp shenanigans?  It's been at least a few years so I might be mistaken.  

 

Yes, in The First Heretic, it was Argel Tal and his squad, but they were in the Eye of Terror, in the middle of what could easily be justified to be a vision/lie/dream/nightmare.

[BrainFireBob]

First Heretic. The Word Bearers damage the Gellar fields around the pods keeping the Primarchs in their warp wombs. Valdor is there, as is Big E. Big E initially telekinetically stops them, then does a "so be it" and releases them into the warp. Implication is he rolled with it and didn't fight it.

 

Ties into the perfect landings of so many Primarchs- psychic judo. Used the Chaos God's snatch force against them to slingshot them to "relatively" appropriate havens

Edited April 7, 2020 by BrainFireBob

[Tyriks]

 

Wasn't there a scene in an earlier Heresy book of some traitors being brought to see that happen by some warp shenanigans?  It's been at least a few years so I might be mistaken.  

 

Yes, in The First Heretic, it was Argel Tal and his squad, but they were in the Eye of Terror, in the middle of what could easily be justified to be a vision/lie/dream/nightmare.

 

Yes! Thank you.  I should re-read that, I remember enjoying it but not much else.

[DarkChaplain]

At this point, I'm honestly more confused what kind of bargain the Emperor struck on Molech to begin with. We now know this and that about the Primarchs' creation, probably too much, but still have no real answer as to where that Molech bit fits in.

 

I mean, did Erda even know that her kids had warp-infused bs poured into them, not just their genetic code?

 

We know the Gods consider the Emperor not just a regular old threat to themselves, but also a traitor who didn't uphold a bargain, and that the Emperor went into that portal and had Alivia Sureka keep watch over it just in case he needs it again. How does that fit into the mix now, with these recent retcons? The bloke has a full cast of super competent geneticists working on the project, did nobody ever figure "hey, what's this weird goop in the biomaterial"?

[Tyriks]

At this point, I'm honestly more confused what kind of bargain the Emperor struck on Molech to begin with. We now know this and that about the Primarchs' creation, probably too much, but still have no real answer as to where that Molech bit fits in.

 

I mean, did Erda even know that her kids had warp-infused bs poured into them, not just their genetic code?

 

We know the Gods consider the Emperor not just a regular old threat to themselves, but also a traitor who didn't uphold a bargain, and that the Emperor went into that portal and had Alivia Sureka keep watch over it just in case he needs it again. How does that fit into the mix now, with these recent retcons? The bloke has a full cast of super competent geneticists working on the project, did nobody ever figure "hey, what's this weird goop in the biomaterial"?

I also don't get the timeline of his trip to Molech.  Maybe I missed something but he had Primarchs with him, right?  Was that a second trip?  Was the first before the Dark Age of Technology?  That whole plot, I felt, muddled things up.

[b1soul]

The Warp/soul enhancement is probably separate from the bio material, I would imagine. It's still a mystery how E infused the primarchs with Warp essence, unless the "undesired" trip through the Warp was the final ingredient.

 

 

This could fit why the Emperor was supposedly "angry" but never punished Erda

 

[w]

[BrainFireBob]

I always suspected Emps got the better of the bargain, not that he broke it.

 

Either the Primarch's daemon-killing gifts, or half would fall to Chaos- and Emps stacked the deck so they got the crazies. Maybe the Marines were a freebie. Maybe they doubled his power, and he planted it as 20 "seeds". Or maybe it was a loan he took from the Warp and put in stable physical bodies where they couldn't reclaim it.

 

Heck, maybe the two missing Primarchs were dog piled at a hint of corruption, so the Big Four couldn't get their tithe.

Edited April 7, 2020 by BrainFireBob

[b1soul]

Is there anything concrete stating that the Emperor borrowed from the Warp to boost the primarchs?

 

Could it be that the Emperor originally intended the primarchs "merely" to be genetically perfect warrior-generals, and the Warp empowerment

 

was actually Erda's "contribution" via Warp scattering

 

The Emperor then ran with it, realising that the Warp shenanigans resulted in less stable but also more potent primarchs.

 

So back to the old debate over whether the Emperor intended for the primarchs to be whisked through the Warp, but the debate could be extended to whether the Emp intended for his "sons" to be Warp infused.

[Scribe]

Rampant Speculation (or how I wish it was).

 

1. The Emperor knew of the Warp, and knew of the beings/entities within, and their nature. - He should, he's the gestalt reincarnation of the Shaman Souls from the Realms of Chaos lore.

 

Until I'm told otherwise by ADB, Wraight AND French, this remains my truth.

 

2. The Emperor was not powerful enough to face them openly, but he knew they loved Games, and Temptation. So? Lets make a deal. Give him the power/knowledge to unify the Galaxy, with a gambit, and a bargain. Half of the Primarch's would be an offering to Chaos.

 

3. Infuse his Primarch project with the raw power of the Warp. They are essentially 'Greater Daemons' in the flesh.

 

4. Betrayal! The Emperor sets up wards to protect his project, seek's to deny the Chaos God's their rightful share.

 

5. Chaos works through its means, to free the Primarchs and scatter them.

 

6. Emperor rages, but he never seeks punishement on those who aided Chaos, why?

 

7. It was all part of the deal, he knew it was coming eventually, and now he had only a finite amount of time to gather the Primarchs, and unite the Galaxy.

 

8. Heresy. Horus rebels, as Chaos comes to collect its rightful share of the Galaxy, setting it on fire for all eternity.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Scribe

[b1soul]

I think Erda would fit into 5 neatly

[nagashnee]

I honestly dont think BL knows or has any clear ideas other then 'popular authors opinion in new book xxx'.  Which i believe is their idea of ambiguous origins.  

[Scammel]

 

At this point, I'm honestly more confused what kind of bargain the Emperor struck on Molech to begin with. We now know this and that about the Primarchs' creation, probably too much, but still have no real answer as to where that Molech bit fits in.

 

I also don't get the timeline of his trip to Molech.  Maybe I missed something but he had Primarchs with him, right?  Was that a second trip?  Was the first before the Dark Age of Technology?  That whole plot, I felt, muddled things up.

 

I don't recall there being any implication that the Emperor's activities on Molech were in aid of anything other than personal empowerment. The Primarchs were definitely around and were themselves unchanged by events on Molech, besides the Emperor wiping their memories.

[Robbienw]

The first trip to Molech was sometime during the age of strife, when he went into the portal to gain whatever he got/took from the warp. He got there in a spaceships but didn’t leave in it, so must have got back to earth using warp shenanigans.

 

The second trip was during the crusade with several of the primarchs, and resulted in Molech being compliant and heavily fortified.

 

Of course the first trip to Molech was the first in context of Vengful Spirit plot, he could have been there before during the Age of Technology or some such. He acquired prior knowledge of the portal there somehow.

[Phoebus]

Rampant Speculation (or how I wish it was).

 

1. The Emperor knew of the Warp, and knew of the beings/entities within, and their nature. - He should, he's the gestalt reincarnation of the Shaman Souls from the Realms of Chaos lore.

 

Until I'm told otherwise by ADB, Wraight AND French, this remains my truth.

 

2. The Emperor was not powerful enough to face them openly, but he knew they loved Games, and Temptation. So? Lets make a deal. Give him the power/knowledge to unify the Galaxy, with a gambit, and a bargain. Half of the Primarch's would be an offering to Chaos.

 

3. Infuse his Primarch project with the raw power of the Warp. They are essentially 'Greater Daemons' in the flesh.

 

4. Betrayal! The Emperor sets up wards to protect his project, seek's to deny the Chaos God's their rightful share.

 

5. Chaos works through its means, to free the Primarchs and scatter them.

 

6. Emperor rages, but he never seeks punishement on those who aided Chaos, why?

 

7. It was all part of the deal, he knew it was coming eventually, and now he had only a finite amount of time to gather the Primarchs, and unite the Galaxy.

 

8. Heresy. Horus rebels, as Chaos comes to collect its rightful share of the Galaxy, setting it on fire for all eternity.

My thoughts on the matter, based on the readings available:

 

The Emperor possesses hyper-precognitive powers and is aware of events and consequences unfolding in the future, but is largely powerless to affect them because his consciousness exists across time and is effectively experiencing things in the past, present, and future in “real time.” He nonetheless fights the good fight because, as described, fate is not precisely fixed: there are many potential futures in store, but as certain actions are taken their number is narrowed down to an outcome.

 

The tragedy of the Emperor, then, is that he is fighting against overwhelming odds and is almost certainly aware of the fights he is bound to lose and of the likely outcome. He has no choice but to follow through, however, and to find those increasingly diminishing fulcrums that might just lead to victory.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Phoebus