What scattered the primarchs

[Scribe]

Yes, I think that is workable. I do believe that path was known to him, would be interesting discussion around fate in the setting.

[Moonreaper666]

Was it worth it though?

 

While Primarchs and the Marines made the Great Crusade possible they also instigated the Horus Heresy, Great Scouring, 13 Black Crusades and Great Rift

 

The creation of the Primarchs reminds me of the Hellboy Movie with Ron Pearlman "Dark Science and Black Magic combined"

[Karhedron]

The Emperor possesses hyper-precognitive powers and is aware of events and consequences unfolding in the future, but is largely powerless to affect them because his consciousness exists across time and is effectively experiencing things in the past, present, and future in “real time.” He nonetheless fights the good fight because, as described, fate is not precisely fixed: there are many potential futures in store, but as certain actions are taken their number is narrowed down to an outcome.

 

The tragedy of the Emperor, then, is that he is fighting against overwhelming odds and is almost certainly aware of the fights he is bound to lose and of the likely outcome. He has no choice but to follow through, however, and to find those increasingly diminishing fulcrums that might just lead to victory.

"The Great Work" sheds some interesting light on the Emperor's precognitive abilities.

 

‘Foresight is not a steady friend, Belisarius. One day it may strike with

startling clarity. For centuries it is only a feeling. This is a good day.’

This quite neatly explains why the Emperor seems aware of certain events well in advance yet gets blind-sided by others.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Was it worth it though?

 

While Primarchs and the Marines made the Great Crusade possible they also instigated the Horus Heresy, Great Scouring, 13 Black Crusades and Great Rift

 

The creation of the Primarchs reminds me of the Hellboy Movie with Ron Pearlman "Dark Science and Black Magic combined"

 

In hindsight, with exactly how everything turned out? Well, humanity's still alive, so kinda? Without the Great Crusade, humanity would have gone extinct long before.

[b1soul]

I like the idea of the Emperor knowing that the Scattering by Chaos is incoming and he can't avoid it

 

When it is discovered that Erda has a hand in it, he is shocked that Chaos managed to work through her, and is initially angry that she would do something she would think is in direct conflict with him...but accepts that the end-result was nigh-inevitable anyway and moves on to mitigating the effects of the Scattering

 

The Emperor also doesn't view the Scattering as an unambiguous con. The alternative is to raise the primarchs on Terra and potentially accelerate friction among them via clashing egos. There are pros to letting them mature apart.

 

Finally, if Erda had not, to a degree, shaped the Scattering, someone else or some other force would have. The Emperor perhaps accepts that Erda was a less evil option.

 

A lot of room to play around with

Edited May 12, 2020 by b1soul

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Was it worth it though?

 

While Primarchs and the Marines made the Great Crusade possible they also instigated the Horus Heresy, Great Scouring, 13 Black Crusades and Great Rift

 

The creation of the Primarchs reminds me of the Hellboy Movie with Ron Pearlman "Dark Science and Black Magic combined"

In hindsight, with exactly how everything turned out? Well, humanity's still alive, so kinda? Without the Great Crusade, humanity would have gone extinct long before.

More like humanity and alienkind, heck all of the Galaxy and Reality Itself is corrupted by Chaos

 

 

I like the idea of the Emperor knowing that the Scattering by Chaos is incoming and he can't avoid it

 

When it is discovered that Erda has a hand in it, he is shocked that Chaos managed to work through her, and is initially angry that she would do something she would think is in direct conflict with him...but accepts that the end-result was nigh-inevitable anyway and moves on to mitigating the effects of the Scattering

 

The Emperor also doesn't view the Scattering as an unambiguous con. The alternative is to raise the primarchs on Terra and potentially accelerate friction among them via clashing egos. There are pros to letting them mature apart.

 

Finally, if Erda had not, to a degree, shaped the Scattering, someone else or some other force would have. The Emperor perhaps accepts that Erda was a less evil option.

 

A lot of room to play around with

Maybe without Erda, Chaos Gods would have more control over the scattering of the Primarchs

 

The Primarchs are sent to 21 worlds (The twins are separated) very far away from the Imperium and fully corrupted by Chaos. Raised, indoctrinated and fully twisted by the Ruinous Powers they conquer and form Feudal Empires!

 

Each of the Chaos Primarchs create Trillions of formidable monsters that would curbstomp Custodes Terminators as well as warmachines that would overwhelm Titans and Battleships!

 

To make it worse they have children and descendants that are just as powerful as them. Just as the Emperor feared, Superhumans and Chaos ruling over humanity while the Dark Gods go Olive Garden at the endless souls, emotions and prayer energy

 

Emperor and Imperium eradicated. The Milky Way Galaxy and beyond is an eternal battleground between the Chaos Primarchs, their descendants and other Chaos Warlords. Eldar, Orks, Necrons and Tyranids are either exterminated or assimilated by Chaos

 

Imagine just how powerful, bloodthristy, manipulative, death-worshipping and deprave an Eldar-Human-Xeno Perpetual Hybrid descendant of several Chaos Primarchs would be!?!

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well sure, it's easy to make one side seem screwed when you just fantasize "and then they get these super-weapons, and they get these really awesome and cool guys fighting for them, and then they karate-chop the C'Tan, and slice up the Necrons with their katanas like hiyaaa, and the Tyranids get scared and run away because they realize they're not cool and strong enough, and and and..."

 

 

 

Imagine just how powerful, bloodthristy, manipulative, death-worshipping and deprave an Eldar-Human-Xeno Perpetual Hybrid descendant of several Chaos Primarchs would be!?!

 

Why stop there? Why not make it part C'Tan too, and using weapons that it got after personally beating up Gork and Mork single-handedly? They also hunted down and killed all the Tyranids, so they've got their own Hive Mind so they can communicate telepathically with each other no matter how far away they all are. It also has soul-stones, so even though it regenerates on dying, it can have a soul-stone implanted into an equally super-awesome Chaos-Necron-Xeno Wraith Construct armed with, like, super-Force Weapons on both hands, and guns that shoot anathames on each shoulder, so now there's two of them!

 

Please take your amazingly biased fan-  elsewhere.

 

Also, all of reality is not tainted by Chaos. 

[Moonreaper666]

Well sure, it's easy to make one side seem screwed when you just fantasize "and then they get these super-weapons, and they get these really awesome and cool guys fighting for them, and then they karate-chop the C'Tan, and slice up the Necrons with their katanas like hiyaaa, and the Tyranids get scared and run away because they realize they're not cool and strong enough, and and and..."

 

Imagine just how powerful, bloodthristy, manipulative, death-worshipping and deprave an Eldar-Human-Xeno Perpetual Hybrid descendant of several Chaos Primarchs would be!?!

Why stop there? Why not make it part C'Tan too, and using weapons that it got after personally beating up Gork and Mork single-handedly? They also hunted down and killed all the Tyranids, so they've got their own Hive Mind so they can communicate telepathically with each other no matter how far away they all are. It also has soul-stones, so even though it regenerates on dying, it can have a soul-stone implanted into an equally super-awesome Chaos-Necron-Xeno Wraith Construct armed with, like, super-Force Weapons on both hands, and guns that shoot anathames on each shoulder, so now there's two of them!

 

Please take your amazingly biased fan- elsewhere.

 

Also, all of reality is not tainted by Chaos.

Only because Erda was involved in scattering the Primarchs

 

If the Chaos Gods had their way they would have ensured that the Primarchs be corrupted when they were still young

 

The Imperium would be fighting 21 Chaos Empires during the Great Crusade with fewer Marines and no Primarchs on their side

 

Chaos Perturabo alone would turn his empire into Menengrad 2.0 and create his own Iron Warriors, Skitarii and Titans.

 

Chaos Magnus would create the Warp Rift in the Imperial Palace at the start of the Great Crusade

 

Without Erda to scatter the Primarchs Chaos Gods would have stolen them and turn all 20 of them into their slaves. Chaos would have way more Marines than the early-Imperium

[mc warhammer]

if the primarchs went full chaos when they were young, they wouldn't have been reuinted with their legions. it would be 20 emperor led legions exterminating their long lost fallen gene sires

[Lord_Caerolion]

But we've been told that Chaos was involved in scattering the Primarchs, Erda is just the mechanism they use to do it. It's not like Khorne can just pop down into the Imperial Palace, put them all into a sack, and jump back into the Warp. Chaos acts through intermediaries, that's how it's always been. The Perturabo we got IS Chaos Perturabo. Mortarion, etc, were corrupted when they were young, they just didn't know it. The seeds were always there.

 

EDIT: I mean, the Lorgar we got is literally what you're describing there. Fallen onto a planet, and raised and indoctrinated into Chaos-worship. He just interpreted his psychic premonitions of the arrival of the Emperor as a religious thing, which temporarily turned him away from Chaos-worship. It's hard to think of what more Chaos could have done for Lorgar, given he'd already landed on a planet fully devoted to the Chaos Gods, and was taken in by a priest of said religion.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Red_Shift]

Since all of the primarchs landed on human held worlds, I've wondered if the Emperor guided them there or if there was another reason that they didn't wake up surrounded by orks or on an airless moon. If he did guide them, why did he need to search for them? He could just get out his map and tick them off one by one. Were the world's in question of some ritual significance?

 

With the significance of Blackstone slowly being revealed, it makes me wonder if there is a link with wraithstone and the primarchs were scattered not through the webway but along some kind of psychic trail/link. So there was a finite list of destinations but the Emperor didn't know which ones housed a primarch so had to do a massive treasure hunt, ticking off worlds as he did so.

[MegaVolt87]

But we've been told that Chaos was involved in scattering the Primarchs, Erda is just the mechanism they use to do it. It's not like Khorne can just pop down into the Imperial Palace, put them all into a sack, and jump back into the Warp. Chaos acts through intermediaries, that's how it's always been. The Perturabo we got IS Chaos Perturabo. Mortarion, etc, were corrupted when they were young, they just didn't know it. The seeds were always there.

 

EDIT: I mean, the Lorgar we got is literally what you're describing there. Fallen onto a planet, and raised and indoctrinated into Chaos-worship. He just interpreted his psychic premonitions of the arrival of the Emperor as a religious thing, which temporarily turned him away from Chaos-worship. It's hard to think of what more Chaos could have done for Lorgar, given he'd already landed on a planet fully devoted to the Chaos Gods, and was taken in by a priest of said religion.

 

Yeah even after I read Lorgar's primarch book, he was inducted into the "old religion" aka chaos worship, then switches tack to what he dosn't know yet as Emperor worship. I find it  incredible the Emperor didn't see that happened in the past. Either that or the Emperor knew and was responsible for Lorgar's "visions" to turn him back around before he got there. I don't get how Lorgar didn't make the Emperor instantly suspicious of him due to his zealotry/ faith. Also Lorgar is the closest in physical appearance to the Emperor apparently except bald, so maybe the Emperor was a bit clouded there in dealing with Lorgar- who I feel had a lot of chances to rectify his mistakes by the Emperor than other primarchs. 

[Bobss]

I haven't digested Saturnine in a proper sit-down format, just reading snippets here and there, but forgive me if I'm wrong for saying this - but I don't see how this is difficult to jig. Erda is the original actor (or as 'original' and 'actor' as you can get in Warhammer 40,000) who deactivated the shields of the Vengeful Spirit gellar field in the Emperor's laboratorium due to her personal motivations (influenced by Chaos or just yolo, we don't know... I don't think... and does it really matter?) - the same gellar field that was implied to be so monumentally powerful it was clearly designed to keep the Chaos Gods themselves from interfering in the same way a ship's gellar field keeps mere demons out, but massively upscaled, and once they were down the Chaos Gods in a rare moment of unity at this incredibly precise and important nexus of causality, open up a warp-wormhole like we see in False Gods and suck them all away. Insert tinfoil theories about whether the Emperor planned this and Primarchs being sent to the wrong foster home etcetera. Likewise, the vision Ingethel shows Argel Tal is rooted in truth, but with him and Xaphen playing Bill and Ted instead, and is no more and no less than a temptation masked as half-lie as is the nature of demons

 

So who scattered the Primarchs? The Chaos Gods did, but courtesy of the powerplays of other actors, who may or may not have been under their influence. Speaking off the top of my head I don't think any of these accounts necessarily contradict one another (arguing whether they were necessary narratively speaking is another matter). I'm also not saying that this jigsaw puzzle was cleverly planned out decades in advance and would be slowly revealed in False Gods, The First Heretic, Valdor. and Saturnine, but consistent revision and clever additions shouldn't be mislabelled as our favourite bash word - retconning

Edited May 12, 2020 by Bobss

[MegaVolt87]

I haven't digested Saturnine in a proper sit-down format, just reading snippets here and there, but forgive me if I'm wrong for saying this - but I don't see how this is difficult to jig. Erda is the original actor (or as 'original' and 'actor' as you can get in Warhammer 40,000) who deactivated the shields of the Vengeful Spirit gellar field in the Emperor's laboratorium due to her personal motivations (influenced by Chaos or just yolo, we don't know... I don't think... and does it really matter?) - the same gellar field that was implied to be so monumentally powerful it was clearly designed to keep the Chaos Gods themselves from interfering in the same way a ship's gellar field keeps mere demons out, but massively upscaled, and once they were down the Chaos Gods in a rare moment of unity at this incredibly precise and important nexus of causality, open up a warp-wormhole like we see in False Gods and suck them all away. Insert tinfoil theories about whether the Emperor planned this and Primarchs being sent to the wrong foster home etcetera. Likewise, the vision Ingethel shows Argel Tal is rooted in truth, but with him and Xaphen playing Bill and Ted instead, and is no more and no less than a temptation masked as half-lie as is the nature of demons

 

So who scattered the Primarchs? The Chaos Gods did, but courtesy of the powerplays of other actors, who may or may not have been under their influence. Speaking off the top of my head I don't think any of these accounts necessarily contradict one another (arguing whether they were necessary narratively speaking is another matter). I'm also not saying that this jigsaw puzzle was cleverly planned out decades in advance and would be slowly revealed in False Gods, The First Heretic, Valdor. and Saturnine, but consistent revision and clever additions shouldn't be mislabelled as our favourite bash word - retconning

 

Wild, so basically Tal and co were shown more of the truth than Horus about the scattering? I think that it would seem the chaos gods need to actually lie more to more powerful beings to have them serve/ manipulated. It seems the less powerful/ smart are shown only slightly altered past events and futures in comparison very close to the truth. There has to be some kind of unwritten laws that govern this, otherwise why not always show the heavily biased versions? 

[Scribe]

What is the truth?

 

Was Argel Tal there? Or was it a delusion/dream/vision/lie? 

 

I mean he was both in the Warp (time is not real, cause and effect are not real) and talking to a Demon. Could be? Couldnt be?

 

And as mentioned, did Erda do it? Is she a powerful entity of her own? If she CLAIMS she did it, she clearly must be a powerful psyker and/or sorceress. HOWEVER.

 

Finally Valdor (as reliable a source as I will accept in the setting) said he FELT what we know to be Chaos.

 

Whats the old lore? 'Chaos did it'.

 

Well...Chaos spoke to Argel Tal, showed his squad that vision, and all psyker power, is of the Warp, and the Warp, is Chaos. So regardless of if Erda did it, well as people say today.

 

'Through the power of Chaos, all things are possible.'

 

Every example can be true, and remain accurate.

[Moonreaper666]

I haven't digested Saturnine in a proper sit-down format, just reading snippets here and there, but forgive me if I'm wrong for saying this - but I don't see how this is difficult to jig. Erda is the original actor (or as 'original' and 'actor' as you can get in Warhammer 40,000) who deactivated the shields of the Vengeful Spirit gellar field in the Emperor's laboratorium due to her personal motivations (influenced by Chaos or just yolo, we don't know... I don't think... and does it really matter?) - the same gellar field that was implied to be so monumentally powerful it was clearly designed to keep the Chaos Gods themselves from interfering in the same way a ship's gellar field keeps mere demons out, but massively upscaled, and once they were down the Chaos Gods in a rare moment of unity at this incredibly precise and important nexus of causality, open up a warp-wormhole like we see in False Gods and suck them all away. Insert tinfoil theories about whether the Emperor planned this and Primarchs being sent to the wrong foster home etcetera. Likewise, the vision Ingethel shows Argel Tal is rooted in truth, but with him and Xaphen playing Bill and Ted instead, and is no more and no less than a temptation masked as half-lie as is the nature of demons

 

So who scattered the Primarchs? The Chaos Gods did, but courtesy of the powerplays of other actors, who may or may not have been under their influence. Speaking off the top of my head I don't think any of these accounts necessarily contradict one another (arguing whether they were necessary narratively speaking is another matter). I'm also not saying that this jigsaw puzzle was cleverly planned out decades in advance and would be slowly revealed in False Gods, The First Heretic, Valdor. and Saturnine, but consistent revision and clever additions shouldn't be mislabelled as our favourite bash word - retconning

I think it changes the context. Before Saturnine the lore states that Chaos scattered the Primarchs which means the Emperor was not powerful enough and was helpless to stop the Dark Gods

 

With the retcon it downgrades the feats of the Chaos Gods

[Bobss]

 

I haven't digested Saturnine in a proper sit-down format, just reading snippets here and there, but forgive me if I'm wrong for saying this - but I don't see how this is difficult to jig. Erda is the original actor (or as 'original' and 'actor' as you can get in Warhammer 40,000) who deactivated the shields of the Vengeful Spirit gellar field in the Emperor's laboratorium due to her personal motivations (influenced by Chaos or just yolo, we don't know... I don't think... and does it really matter?) - the same gellar field that was implied to be so monumentally powerful it was clearly designed to keep the Chaos Gods themselves from interfering in the same way a ship's gellar field keeps mere demons out, but massively upscaled, and once they were down the Chaos Gods in a rare moment of unity at this incredibly precise and important nexus of causality, open up a warp-wormhole like we see in False Gods and suck them all away. Insert tinfoil theories about whether the Emperor planned this and Primarchs being sent to the wrong foster home etcetera. Likewise, the vision Ingethel shows Argel Tal is rooted in truth, but with him and Xaphen playing Bill and Ted instead, and is no more and no less than a temptation masked as half-lie as is the nature of demons

 

So who scattered the Primarchs? The Chaos Gods did, but courtesy of the powerplays of other actors, who may or may not have been under their influence. Speaking off the top of my head I don't think any of these accounts necessarily contradict one another (arguing whether they were necessary narratively speaking is another matter). I'm also not saying that this jigsaw puzzle was cleverly planned out decades in advance and would be slowly revealed in False Gods, The First Heretic, Valdor. and Saturnine, but consistent revision and clever additions shouldn't be mislabelled as our favourite bash word - retconning

I think it changes the context. Before Saturnine the lore states that Chaos scattered the Primarchs which means the Emperor was not powerful enough and was helpless to stop the Dark Gods

 

With the retcon it downgrades the feats of the Chaos Gods

 

 

I mean you can argue The First Heretic did all of that if you want to stick to the old, old accounts of the Scattering. Saturnine just (seems) to give a bit more (implied) detail on the actual setup of the Scattering by adding another face to the mix. Whether that face was needed, and whether that face should be another Perpetual is up for debate, because this is a book and the purpose of books is to entertain us, but the actual mechanics of it all seem fine to me

 

And I have no problem with the Emperor warding one of his most important projects with anti-Chaos measures. I don't usually do whataboutisms, but why didn't the Chaos Gods simply blow the wards off the Mechanicum sections of the Webway Project if they were powerful enough to abduct the Primarchs near-completion? Why even bother with this whole farce - if they can wreck the Emperor's creations, why not simply try to destroy the Emperor in the materium? Their feats in the materium are pretty limited. Khorne spawning a load of his mates on Terra during The Primarch's Return is a good example of how blunt-force Chaos interference isn't all that great

 

I'm not sure I believe that Erda wielded warp powers to scatter them herself. Why can't she simply just unlock the door to let the wolves in? Like, if someone at Apple is sick of them for one reason or another, and decides to lower a bunch of security and encryption and let's all the Microsoft spyware gain access - she doesn't have to be a covert Microsoft employee, but she's aware of the consequence of what she's doing (replace Apple and Microsoft with Coke and Pepsi idk). I mean, the existence of a gigantic gellar field in the Emperor's laboratorium basically proves they all knew who would be watching (insert more wolves and bonfire analogies here). This whole thing would also provide a basis for the vision Ingethel gives Argel Tal (and demons, especially ADB/French/Good Author demons, don't strictly lie, they sort of fumble the truth). Am I missing something here? 

Edited May 13, 2020 by Bobss

[Scribe]

No, it's all very easy to logic our way through I feel.

[Kelborn]

Honestly do we really have to know the "truth" at all and can't it be just a simple myth? :/

[Scribe]

Well, at this point we have 3+ views of the same event, and they are not beyond plausibility in relation to eachother.

 

The truth will be somewhere in the weeds of it all. :)

[MegaVolt87]

If anyone is familiar with full metal alchemist, I feel chaos operating under such similar written/known and unstated laws/ symbolism is very compatible. Which is what inspired my initial theory in my initial post ^.  Especially things like demons being vulnerable to melee weapons, fire in comparison to advanced ranged weaponry etc. So its not far fetched the more powerful the individual in the physical plane of existence must have a strong presence in the warp, psyker or not would require more manipulation from the chaos gods. Like I said, if its easy to warp past and future events, then why try so hard with others more than less powerful individuals? Such manipulations to the fates itself must cost some kind of power expenditure on the gods end. So it makes sense its easier to manipulate Tal than Horus by the gods/ warp entities. Remember, Erebus disguised himself as Sejanus (?) to help in Horus's fall on Davin, even if it ultimately was seen through, that was also a 4 gods group project. So if you can trick someone by telling them the truth with a slight alteration, would cost less divine power to do it. 

[b1soul]

We don't even know if what Erda does is akin to shutting off the shields and thereby "allowing" the Chaos Gods to whisk off the primarchs. And even if that's what she did, she probably did so because of subtle manipulation by Chaos/Tzeentch. That doesn't really downgrade Chaos IMO.

 

Chaos weaponised the no. 2 Perpetual against the no. 1 Perpetual. Not a bad plan. I can't imagine Chaos didn't try to play the Perpetuals off against each other.

Edited May 14, 2020 by b1soul

[Tyriks]

Chaos entities also are made up of their power, it seems.  So when they exert power they're giving up a little bit of themselves (this is at least the case in creating lesser demons, presumably also true in other actions).  So It would make sense for them to want to exert themselves directly only when they need to, as they are constantly at each other's throats and doing something massive could allow one of the others to gain an upper hand, so it makes sense to avoid that.  If the Primarchs were well guarded, why risk a big direct confrontation when you know your "allies" will drop the objective to take you out if they think they can?

[Moonreaper666]

Chaos entities also are made up of their power, it seems. So when they exert power they're giving up a little bit of themselves (this is at least the case in creating lesser demons, presumably also true in other actions). So It would make sense for them to want to exert themselves directly only when they need to, as they are constantly at each other's throats and doing something massive could allow one of the others to gain an upper hand, so it makes sense to avoid that. If the Primarchs were well guarded, why risk a big direct confrontation when you know your "allies" will drop the objective to take you out if they think they can?

It makes the Chaos Gods have more powerful feats when they do something directly that is why I prefer having them directly steal and scatter the Primarchs. Chaos Gods don't have a lot of feats

 

Khorne once unleashed a bloodtide which killed/banish the normal humans and Nurgle Daemons in a planet but left the Khornate Daemons and Space Marines alive

 

I think there was one moment in which the Chaos Gods opened a Warp Rift on a planet. In the Gladiator arena, Khârn is the first to pop-out and decapitate the leading champion, he and the planetary leaders claimed no one can beat him. Daemons then maanifested and then slaughtered the planet

 

I feel that the Chaos Gods should have feats like:

 

-Khorne chops-in-half an Imperial world which provides a lot of food, along with the orbiting Imperial Navy flee. Entire sectors reenact the Purge Movies

 

-Tzeentch sends false information that causes two worlds (one owned by the Admech the other by the Imperial Church) to decimate each other, resulting in a Tzeentch cult taking over both worlds and turning them into Daemon Worlds

 

-Trillions of starving people in a Hive World are given tainted food falling from the sky (Biblical reference) by Nurgle. The world is taken and corrupted by his new followers

 

-Slaanesh sends corrupting music throughout an entire Astartes and Sisters of Battle combined fleet, turning them into Noise Marines, insane or victims of the most heinous crimes

 

-Malice incites anarchy, class warfare and multi-Xeno invasion (Dark Eldar, Eldar Corsairs, Hrud, Orks, Rakgol, etc) in a Hive World and personally wipes out entire Chapters and Regiments with the Sons of Malice

 

Remind the Corpse Emperor and the Imperium that they only live for amusement and at the Chaos Gods' will. Even those that 'Know No Fear' cower at the might of Chaos!

[mc warhammer]

sure, but chaos is also insidious and subtle

 

it's not all super sayan roid rage