Land Speeder crew helmets, yellow or not?

[appiah4]

Are they Fast Attack marines with yellow helmets or AdMech guys with red helmets?

[Slave to Darkness]

Yellow I believe. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Slave to Darkness

[Spyros]

Fast attack with yellow helmets. It has always been thus.

[Xenith]

By GW's decree, they're yellow, but only as of the 5th ed codex. 3rd ed they were red, then they changed around 5th ed/maybe with the pdf dex.

 

Yellow used to be assault, but is now close support. Whatever that means. Realistically, paint then however you like. I have a terminator with cyclone with blue helmet stripe. I've seen assault terms with yellow helms.

 

I paint mine according to what company and squad they were drawn from, with squad 1-6 being tactical (now battleline) 7-8 being assault (now close support) and 9-10 being devastator (now fire support).

 

I have 3 speeders, 2 are crewed by 8th co. assault marines and as such have yellow helmets, the last is crewed by tactical marines of the 6th reserve co. who are all trained to deploy by landspeeder who have red helmets.

 

The yellow helm speeders don't fit the new scheme because they're assault marines, but with their typhoon launchers they're in a fire support role, so should be blue.

 

GW's actual paint scheme for the BA is arbitrary and not based on any logic, so the best thing to do is do whatever you feel makes sense to you.

[Panzer]

According to the fluff section of the current Codex they are Close Support so they should be wearing yellow helmets.

[Morticon]

By GW's decree, they're yellow, but only as of the 5th ed codex. 3rd ed they were red, then they changed around 5th ed/maybe with the pdf dex.

 

Yellow used to be assault, but is now close support. Whatever that means. Realistically, paint then however you like. I have a terminator with cyclone with blue helmet stripe. I've seen assault terms with yellow helms.

 

I paint mine according to what company and squad they were drawn from, with squad 1-6 being tactical (now battleline) 7-8 being assault (now close support) and 9-10 being devastator (now fire support).

 

I have 3 speeders, 2 are crewed by 8th co. assault marines and as such have yellow helmets, the last is crewed by tactical marines of the 6th reserve co. who are all trained to deploy by landspeeder who have red helmets.

 

The yellow helm speeders don't fit the new scheme because they're assault marines, but with their typhoon launchers they're in a fire support role, so should be blue.

 

GW's actual paint scheme for the BA is arbitrary and not based on any logic, so the best thing to do is do whatever you feel makes sense to you.

 

:tu: :tu: :tu: 

[appiah4]

My Landspeeder is a Typhoon with a Multi-Melta..  Yellow just doesn't feel right on a skimming gunboat like that :(

[Xenith]

My Landspeeder is a Typhoon with a Multi-Melta.. Yellow just doesn't feel right on a skimming gunboat like that

Then paint them blue! I found a photo of mine. Two of my pilots are also sergeants of their respective squads, so got black shoulder pads.

Close support Squads

Chainswords howling, bolt weapons roaring, the Blood Angels close support squads storm the enemy’s battlelines and overrun their fortifications,reducing all that stand against them to butchered offal.

Fire Support

There are few problems upon the battlefields of the 41st Millennium that cannot be solved by the judicious application of overwhelming firepower. It is this tenet that guides the fire support squads of the Blood Angels Chapter, whose duty it is to annihilate the foe’s heaviest armour and most deadly warriors with reaping volleys of rockets, las blasts and searing plasma.

As I said, GW's squad designations are arbitrary, and the most likely scenario is that GW paints them and locates them in the codex according to the role of the marine who pilots it.

The descriptions of close and fire support would place speeders in the seond category, however it says bike crews are 100% made up from assault marines (in a break from the codex, where tactical squads of the 6th are trained to ride bikes). One can assume they forget this for for speeders also, and assume they are all crewed by assault marines.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Xenith

[appiah4]

I'll probably go with yellow then, let's hope it turns out OK.

[redshadow]

Id paint them yellow just me, Isn’t everything everything in the fast attack slot except vanguards yellow, heavy support slot blue, honour guard gold everything else red Edited April 7, 2020 by redshadow

[Panzer]

My Landspeeder is a Typhoon with a Multi-Melta.. Yellow just doesn't feel right on a skimming gunboat like that

Then paint them blue! I found a photo of mine. Two of my pilots are also sergeants of their respective squads, so got black shoulder pads.

Close support Squads

Chainswords howling, bolt weapons roaring, the Blood Angels close support squads storm the enemy’s battlelines and overrun their fortifications,reducing all that stand against them to butchered offal.

Fire Support

There are few problems upon the battlefields of the 41st Millennium that cannot be solved by the judicious application of overwhelming firepower. It is this tenet that guides the fire support squads of the Blood Angels Chapter, whose duty it is to annihilate the foe’s heaviest armour and most deadly warriors with reaping volleys of rockets, las blasts and searing plasma.

As I said, GW's squad designations are arbitrary, and the most likely scenario is that GW paints them and locates them in the codex according to the role of the marine who pilots it.

The descriptions of close and fire support would place speeders in the seond category, however it says bike crews are 100% made up from assault marines (in a break from the codex, where tactical squads of the 6th are trained to ride bikes). One can assume they forget this for for speeders also, and assume they are all crewed by assault marines.

I think they departed from the Close support -> choppy, Fire support -> shooty classification because it would only result in most units that aren't Battleline or Veterans being Fire support and some units having to do a weird split depending on their loadout (most noticeably Assault Marines which are quite obviously supposed to be choppy Close support but can also equip a bunch of special weapons and act like Fire support). Most choppy Marine units are Veterans after all.

[Panzer]

Id paint them yellow just me, Isn’t everything everything in the fast attack slot except veterans yellow, heavy support slot blue, honour guard gold everything else red

 

Once upon a time GW cared about the FOC slots being the same as the battlefield role within a company.

So Elites -> Veterans, Troops -> Battleline, Fast Attack -> Close support, Heavy support -> Fire support. However even then they had to compromise considering that tanks, dreadnoughts and flyers don't belong to any of those battlefield roles but still had to fit in the FOC system.

Then eventually GW started to not care about it anymore with stuff like Centurions until we arrive at today where it's two completely separate things with some Close support being Troops (Incursors) or Elites (Reivers), some Fire support being Fast Attack (Suppressors) or Elites (Aggressors) etc.

 

So today one is purely crunch and the other is purely fluff and they only loosely have something to do with eachother. The helmet colours are of course purely a fluff thing and depend on the fluff explanation aka the battlefield roles and have nothing to do with the crunch explanation aka FOC slots.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Panzer

[redshadow]

Unless Reivers get an upgrade I can’t see them been elites by the next time we get a codex release, but I get you point @ panzer Edited April 7, 2020 by redshadow

[Closet Skeleton]

I'm pretty sure the answer is both and that it depends on line company vs reserve company.

 

Line companies have two close support squads who fight as either jump assault squads, mechanised assault squads, bike squads or land speeder squadrons.

 

The Assault reserve company is the 8th but the Landspeeder company is the 7th and is one of two tactical companies, with the other tactical company the 6th also being the bike company. 2nd ed lists the 8th company as also using both speeders and bikes but it doesn't specialise in either. So reserve companies follow different rules and if a landspeeder squadron is added in addition to a force deployment then its probably crewed by 7th company tactical marines, especially in a BA army where the two line assault squads are probably deployed in an actual close combat role.

 

By GW's decree, they're yellow, but only as of the 5th ed codex. 3rd ed they were red, then they changed around 5th ed/maybe with the pdf dex.

In 2nd they were yellow and from the 2nd company.

[Panzer]

I'm pretty sure the answer is both and that it depends on line company vs reserve company.

 

Line companies have two close support squads who fight as either jump assault squads, mechanised assault squads, bike squads or land speeder squadrons.

 

The Assault reserve company is the 8th but the Landspeeder company is the 7th and is one of two tactical companies, with the other tactical company the 6th also being the bike company. 2nd ed lists the 8th company as also using both speeders and bikes but it doesn't specialise in either. So reserve companies follow different rules and if a landspeeder squadron is added in addition to a force deployment then its probably crewed by 7th company tactical marines, especially in a BA army where the two line assault squads are probably deployed in an actual close combat role.

 

That's not a thing. The 8th is the "Reserve Close Support Company" and the 6th and 7th are the "Reserve Battleline Company". There is no Bike company or Landspeeder company. Bikes and Landspeeder are just a "loadout" a Close support squad can be deployed with, so if anything the 8th would be it. So what you mention the 2nd edition states is actually still correct and they don't follow different rules at all except that reserve companies don't mix battlefield roles like battle companies do.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Panzer

[SnorriSnorrison]

I think I read somewhere that helmets were painted depending on the marine's allocation to a squad, but that sometimes tactical marines would act as crews for Landspeeders as well, since ASM were the youngest of marines and the tacticals better pilots.

 

In short: GW is inconsistent with their heraldry, do whatever floats your boat landspeeder.

[Xenith]

So today one is purely crunch and the other is purely fluff and they only loosely have something to do with eachother. The helmet colours are of course purely a fluff thing and depend on the fluff explanation aka the battlefield roles and have nothing to do with the crunch explanation aka FOC slots.

Absolutely that.

I'm not going to get too more into this, but I did go throgh the old 3rd ed codex, a masterpiece of grimdark for some answers. Outdated, I know, but I also know Appiah is old school, so this might trigger some nostalgia feelings:

I loved that book, and will maybe post some more inspriational images from it in my plog.

[Panzer]

Unless Reivers get an upgrade I can’t see them been elites by the next time we get a codex release, but I get you point @ panzer

 

By all means they never had a reason to be put into the Elite section in the first place if you ask me. The Elite section is overcrowded as is, they aren't veterans (to go with how it was done before) and they definitely aren't a proper melee unit either. If anything they mostly resemble Assault Marines and should have been put into the Fast Attack section.

I don't think GW will ever go back on such decisions or even waste a single thought on it though. They are Elite now and will likely stay there as long as the FOC sections exist.

[Majkhel]

All those years, and the 'Eavy Metal team's paint-job is still flawless.

Sorry, not much to add from me regarding the helmets' colour that has not been said previously :D I agree it's a mess now and both red, yellow and blue have merit in terms of fluff, crunch and visual looks.

Personally I'm still really torn on the Reivers' yellow helmets as shown in the codex arts - haven't yet found a way to paint them convincingly from purely aesthetic point of view - they just don't give enough contrast between yellow of the helmet and bone/white of the skull face-plate.

My own experiment with adding Reiver helmet to a battleline squad came out much more convincing:

[Panzer]

All those years, and the 'Eavy Metal team's paint-job is still flawless.

Sorry, not much to add from me regarding the helmets' colour that has not been said previously I agree it's a mess now and both red, yellow and blue have merit in terms of fluff, crunch and visual looks.

Personally I'm still really torn on the Reivers' yellow helmets as shown in the codex arts - haven't yet found a way to paint them convincingly from purely aesthetic point of view - they just don't give enough contrast between yellow of the helmet and bone/white of the skull face-plate.

My own experiment with adding Reiver helmet to a battleline squad came out much more convincing:

Personally I don't see why they should have white/bone faceplate in the first place. Just paint the faceplate in black/dark grey instead. I use the helmets for my custom successors DC Intercessors which have bone armour and the black/dark grey faceplate looks great. That way they don't get confused for Chaplains either.

Sanguinary Guard Reiver, Intercessor and DC Intercessor of my custom successor

Your white-ish paint splatter on the helmet looks great too though! Very distinct.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Panzer

[Majkhel]

Good idea, thanks Panzer!

[Xenith]

Has anyone tried yellow helm with black skull face? I'd be keen to see that variation. 

[Closet Skeleton]

That's not a thing. The 8th is the "Reserve Close Support Company" and the 6th and 7th are the "Reserve Battleline Company". There is no Bike company or Landspeeder company. Bikes and Landspeeder are just a "loadout" a Close support squad can be deployed with, so if anything the 8th would be it. So what you mention the 2nd edition states is actually still correct and they don't follow different rules at all except that reserve companies don't mix battlefield roles like battle companies do.

 

 

Its a thing in the 2nd ed codex that isn't mentioned in the 5th ed one so don't claim to agree with the 2nd ed codex here which isn't contradicting itself since it only depicts a single 2nd company landspeeder. It is mentioned in the 5th ed main marine book which is more detailed on chapter structure than the BA one. The 5th ed 'ultramarines' book goes as far to state that the common deployment of the 7th company is as a light vehicle formation but agrees with the 2nd ed book that the 8th reserve company has bikes and landspeeders as well.

 

The 7th ed marine book also agrees that the 6th company is trained in bikes and the 7th in landspeeders but states that not all chapters possess the 50 landspeeders required to deploy an actual landspeeder company.

 

5th, 6th and 7th ed all use basically the same text which state that all companies have access to vehicles. So the 7th company would still be driving landspeeders but not necarrily be the primary source of landspeeder pilots as described in 2nd ed and the main 5th ed marine book.

 

The reserve tactical companies are still stated to be the primary source of vehicle crews alongside armoury novitates so its never been stated that the 6th and 7th only deploy as battleline/tactical squads. The 8th ed main marine book states that the 6th and 7th companies crew vehicles and are deployed in vehicle formations but doesn't assign landspeeders specifically to a single company. Presumably this varies between chapters.

 

So if you're confused you can blame Matt Ward I guess since he wrote both 5th ed marine books.

 

 

 

In short: GW is inconsistent with their heraldry, do whatever floats your boat landspeeder.

I think its best to assume that the inconsistency is canon and more accurate to the reality of the chapter than the official formal rules which are only on paper in the fictional world just as much as in the real world. So it can be 'correct' to for the models to be 'wrong'.

 

I run with the idea that every variation on Blood Angels colour schemes in a published source is 'correct' but not necesarily at concurrent with contradictory depictions.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Closet Skeleton

[Xenith]

 

I run with the idea that every variation on Blood Angels colour schemes in a published source is 'correct' but not necesarily at concurrent with contradictory depictions.

 

Also don't forget that Guilliman literally rewrote the codex and changed company structure when he woke up, so structure before the rift doesn't necessarily represent structure after the rift.

 

My BA are set around my vision of the 3rd War for Armageddon, so are definitely pre-rift, and are marked as such.

[Panzer]

 

That's not a thing. The 8th is the "Reserve Close Support Company" and the 6th and 7th are the "Reserve Battleline Company". There is no Bike company or Landspeeder company. Bikes and Landspeeder are just a "loadout" a Close support squad can be deployed with, so if anything the 8th would be it. So what you mention the 2nd edition states is actually still correct and they don't follow different rules at all except that reserve companies don't mix battlefield roles like battle companies do.

 

 

Its a thing in the 2nd ed codex that isn't mentioned in the 5th ed one so don't claim to agree with the 2nd ed codex here which isn't contradicting itself since it only depicts a single 2nd company landspeeder. It is mentioned in the 5th ed main marine book which is more detailed on chapter structure than the BA one. The 5th ed 'ultramarines' book goes as far to state that the common deployment of the 7th company is as a light vehicle formation but agrees with the 2nd ed book that the 8th reserve company has bikes and landspeeders as well.

 

The 7th ed marine book also agrees that the 6th company is trained in bikes and the 7th in landspeeders but states that not all chapters possess the 50 landspeeders required to deploy an actual landspeeder company.

 

5th, 6th and 7th ed all use basically the same text which state that all companies have access to vehicles. So the 7th company would still be driving landspeeders but not necarrily be the primary source of landspeeder pilots as described in 2nd ed and the main 5th ed marine book.

 

The reserve tactical companies are still stated to be the primary source of vehicle crews alongside armoury novitates so its never been stated that the 6th and 7th only deploy as battleline/tactical squads. The 8th ed main marine book states that the 6th and 7th companies crew vehicles and are deployed in vehicle formations but doesn't assign landspeeders specifically to a single company. Presumably this varies between chapters.

 

So if you're confused you can blame Matt Ward I guess since he wrote both 5th ed marine books.

 

 

2nd edition is ancient. LOTS of things have changed in the past almost 30 years. If you don't just want to talk nostalgia you shouldn't really point towards outdated ressources I'd say.

 

As for the vehicles part, the 8th edition Codex also says that every company except for the 10th maintain a host of support vehicles which range from Rhinos and Razorbacks to Bikes and Land Speeders.

However that does not mean that every company has absolutely every kind of vehicle at their disposal. It makes no sense for a reserve company focussed on Battleline squads to have Bikes and Land Speeders because using those is the job of Close support squads.

 

So, I'm not confused at all. I'm just not considering outdated ressources to answer questions of the present. Especially not when we live in a time of change with Primaris getting added and FOC slots and Battlefield roles getting more separated and everything.