Phobos Master - which company?

[Angel of Solitude]

During these times of isolation, I’m managing to make my way through my backlog of shame, which includes a Phobos Master. Im trying to assign all my different masters to a company, so my question is: which company would best suit a Phobos Master? 10th company seems the obvious choice, and I know that Lazarus is supposed to be the only Primaris Master, so I’m already on thin lore ground anyway!

 

Any thoughts would be most welcome!

[UtariOnzo]

Lazarus isn’t the only Primaris Master, he was the first Master inducted into the inner circle to become a Primaris. Not every Master of the Dark Angels have historically been part of the Inner Circle. In terms of timeline, the ‘game’ is now set some 200 years after the start of the Indomitus Crusade, with PA filling in what happened between.

 

The Phobos Master likely is either the 10th company Master, leading the standing Vanguard detachment, or any of the battleline company masters that have decided that Phobos equipment is what a given job needs, so paint them as any company you like.

[Angel of Solitude]

Thanks UtariOnzo - as soon as I wrote my post, I did think that the timeline had moved on a bit and so there’s ample chance for a Primaris to become a master.

 

I’m not sure he’d be master of one of the three main battle companies, so I’d probably go with one of the reserve companies. The 9th Company is reserve close support squads, so that may fit well for me!

[Master Sheol]

According how DA Masters are appointed all DA Primaris Master MUST be through crossing the Rubicon way

To become a Master in DA chapter you must first become a DW member and then climb up to DWK rank and when a former Master dies or leave his Company (promoted to another company like DW/RW or to Azrael personal staff) one of the DWK members is selected to become a new Company Master

So as there is still few DW primaris and no DWK primaris It must be that a phobos primaris master Is a master that crossed the rubicon like Lazarus did as first master to become primaris in DA chapter

 

So maybe the master of the tenth company crossed the rubicon primaris and wears phobos armour

 

P.S.: in the rules this is fine in a weird way cause you must pay a stratagem to make a Master to have DW rules while in DA fluff all masters ARE part of the DW (like librarians)

Edited April 15, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Gederas]

According how DA Masters are appointed all DA Primaris Master MUST be through crossing the Rubicon way

To become a Master in DA chapter you must first become a DW member and then climb up to DWK rank and when a former Master dies or leave his Company (promoted to another company like DW/RW or to Azrael personal staff) one of the DWK members is selected to become a new Company Master

So as there is still few DW primaris and no DWK primaris It must be that a phobos primaris master Is a master that crossed the rubicon like Lazarus did as first master to become primaris in DA chapter

 

So maybe the master of the tenth company crossed the rubicon primaris and wears phobos armour

 

P.S.: in the rules this is fine in a weird way cause you must pay a stratagem to make a Master to have DW rules while in DA fluff all masters ARE part of the DW (like librarians)

Well, outside of the Primaris Marines who are in the Ravenwing/Deathwing. Those ones are able to get their promotions.

 

In regards to the last part.... I really think it's because they forgot to add the DEATHWING keyword to all Firstborn Company Masters by default, with the Primaris ones being the ones who lack it.

[Master Sheol]

 

 

According how DA Masters are appointed all DA Primaris Master MUST be through crossing the Rubicon way

To become a Master in DA chapter you must first become a DW member and then climb up to DWK rank and when a former Master dies or leave his Company (promoted to another company like DW/RW or to Azrael personal staff) one of the DWK members is selected to become a new Company Master

So as there is still few DW primaris and no DWK primaris It must be that a phobos primaris master Is a master that crossed the rubicon like Lazarus did as first master to become primaris in DA chapter

 

So maybe the master of the tenth company crossed the rubicon primaris and wears phobos armour

 

P.S.: in the rules this is fine in a weird way cause you must pay a stratagem to make a Master to have DW rules while in DA fluff all masters ARE part of the DW (like librarians)

Well, outside of the Primaris Marines who are in the Ravenwing/Deathwing. Those ones are able to get their promotions.

 

In regards to the last part.... I really think it's because they forgot to add the DEATHWING keyword to all Firstborn Company Masters by default, with the Primaris ones being the ones who lack it.

Yes there is some primaris in DW now but none is reported as part of the DWK that is the step required to become a Company Master

According to fluff all the master were in DW before being promoted so the lack of DW keyword from the master datasheets is weird

[shabbadoo]

The Phobos Master is not likely the Master of any Company. What is more likely is that he just holds a Master equivalent rank...among Dark Angels Primaris forces. He could be attached to any company, though I would think it would be either a Battle Company or non-devastator Reserve Company, so the 3rd-8th Companies. Definitely NOT the 10th! The 10th is for noobs what have not learned everything yet, and Primaris are anything but that. And Primaris Marines already stand out from ordinary marines. Among Scouts, a Primaris Marine would be like this:

 

 

[Gederas]

The Phobos Master is not likely the Master of any Company. What is more likely is that he just holds a Master equivalent rank...among Dark Angels Primaris forces. He could be attached to any company, though I would think it would be either a Battle Company or non-devastator Reserve Company, so the 3rd-8th Companies. Definitely NOT the 10th! The 10th is for noobs what have not learned everything yet, and Primaris are anything but that. And Primaris Marines already stand out from ordinary marines.

Errr... Have you not read the codex reforms? The 10th company now has 100 Vanguard Primaris marines in it ALONG with the Scouts :lol:

[shabbadoo]

Really? Must have missed that. Time for me to RTFM on the Vanguard stuff.   Still, I wouldn't make a Phobos Master *the* literal 10th Company Master, but rather have him simply be a Master of the Primaris forces under him. There is only one literal Primaris Company Master in the DA, and that is Lazarus. Other Primaris Masters merely hold the rank of Master out of equivalency of position/capability, but are not *the* Master of any Company.  Primaris Marines are additions to the Chapters, not replacements.

 

Wouldn't surprise me to see Scout Marine models phased out first, as the old procedures of making marines are replaced with Primaris procedures.

[UtariOnzo]

Under what assertion are you making that Primaris Masters are not the literal masters of a given company? Lazarus was the first, yes, but the Psychic Awakening books are coming from a historical perspective, speaking of a canonical recent past, and the game is now set some time after. There is nothing in the current codex that I see that explicitly says that Lazarus is the only true Master among the Primaris.

 

 

Additionally, I need to point out the “Every Master is Deathwing” thing again. Within the codex, even Firstborn Masters not in Terminator Armour do not automatically have the Deathwing keyword, and previous editions of our codex and books have also pointed out not every Master is inducted into the Inner Circle (I believe the 3rd or possibly 4th edition codex has it. Yes, Deathwing Knights are described often as being a kind of reserve of “Masters in Waiting”, but again nothing explicitly says that is the sole route to Company leadership or outright bars non-Deathwing Masters.

 

To quote from the most recent codex:

 

“Typically such men served in the Deathwing, where they further distinguished themselves, although with the arrival of reinforcements from the Ultima Founding, promotions to Company Master without membership of the Inner Circle is far less rare than of old” (Codex:Dark Angels 8th edition, page 34)

[jbaeza94]

Let's not forget sammael was also never in the deathwing

[Angel of Solitude]

Reading through the Dark Angels codex, the Vanguard codex and new Space Marines codex, I can only conclude that the lore is a bit confusing right now.

 

Page 49 of the Dark Angles codex has the following: “A Deathwing Master is the leader of a unit of Deathwing Knights; each is a Company Master in training, for there is no finer proving ground than this August brotherhood.” So the intention always is to promote from the Deathwing to Company Master. However, we know that the Dark Angels suffered severe losses at the hands of the forces of Tzeentch, hence the much needed Primaris reinforcements. I think it’s completely compatible for some Primaris Masters to be appointed to possibly the reserve companies, to replace the losses that had been suffered. Such masters would not be Inner Circle members.

 

Likewise, I’d like to think that the three main battle companies retain the Deathwing progression, hence why it’s important that the Master of the 5th is a rubiconned Primaris master. And possibly Azrael recognises the need to admit Primaris Deathwing members, so that future Primaris masters can be drawn from the Deathwing brotherhood. We already have one Deathwing Primaris, I’m hoping that in the 9th Ed we hear more about him - perhaps the first Deathwing Lt.

 

The odd one for me though is the Master of the 10th - who per the Codex is Master of Recruits and Master of Reconnaissance. The implication is that this would be a Primaris Master, but I’m not sure that the Inner Circle would trust command of the Scout company to a Primaris / non-Inner Circle brother.

 

On this basis, I can get quite happy with the idea of a Primaris master of either the 8th or 9th company.

[Galloway]

FWIW, in the (7th ed?) Codex Dark Angels there the 9th company commander is listed as Master Xerophus (master of relics). So could well be that other masters had followed Lazarus across the Rubicon. Under the Primaris Master entry in Ritual of the Damned, there's a little lore snippet:

 

‘Crossing the Rubicon Primaris was no easy choice. I have sent brothers to die in battle, and my conscience is clear. They did their duty and I did mine. But to subject myself to the Calgarian Rites and risk ignominious death on the Apothecary’s slab? Had the rewards not been so great, I would have scoffed at the notion.’

- Master Xerophus, Dark Angels Master of Relics

 

So seems like other Masters have crossed the Rubicon as well, presumably after Lazarus.

 

Also, I had always assumed that everyone in the Deathwing was part of the Inner Circle, but that may not be a straight 1 to 1 thing. In the 7th edition it seemed pretty clear that Masters were all drawn from the Deathwing Knights, who were inducted into the IC when they were elevated from the Deathwing ranks if they weren't already, so I guess you could be in the Deathwing but not the IC (and that actually seems to be consistent with the general DW text there). But I guess that's no longer the only route anymore in post-Rift setting. Likewise, Sammael (and presumably some Black Knights) are in the IC, but not all served in DW.

[Angel of Solitude]

That’s a good catch about Xerophus. Also, in Lazarus’s lore entry, it states that he was the first (and so perhaps not the only) Primaris member of the Inner Circle. So I’m now much happier having a Primaris Master in charge of the 9th ;)

 

From a 9th Ed lore perspective, I’m now interested in a few things:

- what happens to the first Primaris Deathwing;

- whether we get pure Primaris being admitted to the Inner Circle;

- An Interrogator Chaplain (or perhaps Sapphon!) crossing the Rubicon;

- Primaris Chaplain being inducted in to the Inner Circle.

 

Exciting times for sure.

[Gederas]

So, if Xerophus is a Primaris now.... What would his model's loadout be? Since 9th Company is the Heavy Support company I'm thinking Stalker Bolt Rifle?

[Bryan Blaire]

A Phobos master could be any Company Master who happens to be Primaris. Their armor underlayers can be configured to utilize any of the MkX configuration of armor - Phobos, Tacticus, or Gravis. As such, if the mission were to call for it, your Phobos master could be Lazarus or any other Primaris Master if you were to wish. Since all Primaris Marines are also trained as Vanguard, in a pinch, they could probably utilize Vanguard equipment and tactics even if they can't be drawn from the 10th Company for the mission. It's really ridiculous that GW can't figure out a way to make the different armor and wargear sets as packages to be utilized by characters, but ah well.

[shabbadoo]

Under what assertion are you making that Primaris Masters are not the literal masters of a given company? Lazarus was the first, yes, but the Psychic Awakening books are coming from a historical perspective, speaking of a canonical recent past, and the game is now set some time after. There is nothing in the current codex that I see that explicitly says that Lazarus is the only true Master among the Primaris.

 

 

Additionally, I need to point out the “Every Master is Deathwing” thing again. Within the codex, even Firstborn Masters not in Terminator Armour do not automatically have the Deathwing keyword, and previous editions of our codex and books have also pointed out not every Master is inducted into the Inner Circle (I believe the 3rd or possibly 4th edition codex has it. Yes, Deathwing Knights are described often as being a kind of reserve of “Masters in Waiting”, but again nothing explicitly says that is the sole route to Company leadership or outright bars non-Deathwing Masters.

 

To quote from the most recent codex:

 

“Typically such men served in the Deathwing, where they further distinguished themselves, although with the arrival of reinforcements from the Ultima Founding, promotions to Company Master without membership of the Inner Circle is far less rare than of old” (Codex:Dark Angels 8th edition, page 34)

Here's my point of view expanded...

 

Primaris Marines occupy a spot not unlike that original Terran Marines did (i.e. they are outsiders), excepting that original Terran Marines were not simply combined with Marines already on Caliban, because there originally were no Marines on Caliban. In the old days of The Great Crusade, where all of the Calbanites who could be were transformed into marines, the Terran Marines were added to them in Company strength, and where the Legions could (and often did) have hundreds of Companies, they just assigned a number to all of them, and so the the Terran Captains/Masters had their commands in the Dark Angels simply by being assigned a Company number.

 

Skip ahead 10,000+ years....

 

So there's this guy named, Beliarius Cawl, and he's just made a metric crap-ton of Primaris Marines. He's trained them up and indoctrinated them in the Imperial Creed (with a little bit of AdMech thrown in), as well as into the *known* mysteries of the Chapter their geneseed was from. Far from being an underachiever though, Cawl had not just pumped out a bunch of line troops, but through the process had developed and trained up the entire command structure and specialists as well- Apothecaries, Chaplains, Librarians, Lieutenants, and Captains...er...Masters in this case (the Techmarines are still hiding out on Mars apparently). And he doesn't just send one of each, but a number of each, because the Dark Angels were sent hundreds of Primaris Marines, meaning a multiple Company strength attachment.

 

And so what did the Dark Angels and other Chapters do? Did they create the 11th, 12th, 13th, etc. Companies and so forth, and stick the Primaris Masters in charge of them? No, they didn't. Did the Dark Angels put bolt shells in the brains of various extant Company Masters because, "Sorry. We've got to stick these Primaris Masters in here somewhere, so some of you have got to go." No again. What they did with them was disperse them among the various Companies that already had Company Masters. So, some Companies might have two or even more Masters then? Technically yes, but we all very much know that there is not a single *Martian* (very important emphasis that) Primaris Master that is a real Company Master in the Dark Angels.

 

Which brings us to Lazarus, which will finalize the whole point. When Lazarus was, how shall we say, indisposed, surely if a Primaris Master were on hand (and there surely were) it would be the perfect time to elevate one to true command of a Company. Is that what happened? Hell no!  The Dark Angels instead ran Lazarus through the Rubicon and shut out the *Martian* Primaris Masters completely. And so Lazarus is the first (and currently only) Primaris Master in the Dark Angels, and that is because he is a Dark Angels Master who became Primaris and not a Primaris Master who just showed up one day and said, "So...which Company do I get? Oh, yeah, and I need you to tell me all the secrets of the Chapter. Need. To. Know, eh?" and a Company was just handed over.

 

The *Martian* Primaris Marines, Masters and otherwise, are still on the outside looking in so far as it concerns *true command* within the Chapter, and by *true command* I mean they are trusted with the knowledge to peruse *all* Dark Angels missions, which we know the *Martian* Primaris are not. Times, they are a changing though, as the Dark Angels cannot hide everything for long from their new  *Martian* members, and we already see that in the novels. There are of course promotions to Company Master without Deathwing/Inner Circle membership now, as what else are they do with the new batch of Primaris Captains without insulting/alienating/dishonoring every Primaris Marine they were sent? The fluff is up-to-date with Lazarus. He isn't really the "first" though, to my mind. The real "first" will be a *Martian* Primaris Master getting the *true command* nod, and there will be a story in that. GW stating Lazarus was the first Primaris member of the Inner Circle is poorly written (*how* they wrote it I mean), and beyond misleading. The main understanding is that Primaris Marines are *Martian* in origin, and there is no *Martian* member of the Inner circle, period, as it is well documented that the Dark Angels do not trust them. Yet. Written properly, the statement should have been, "Lazarus is the first member of the Inner Circle to Cross the Rubicon and become a Primaris Space Marine." Instead, GW %$@# it up by writing a technically true statement, but in such as way as to be as far from the truth as is possible. So, it not just rules GW has the ability to word poorly.  

Edited April 21, 2020 by shabbadoo

[Bryan Blaire]

Do we know that the Dark Angels Primaris actually showed up with Company Masters set up already, or that they didn't just bust almost everyone back to Lieutenant or Sergeant at the highest?

[shabbadoo]

I'd say the unit entries confirm that, seeing as they were around before the advent of Lazarus. The Primaris are sort of like the Clone Army from Star Wars - when the Dark Angels (and everybody else) received them, they were ready to go.

Edited April 21, 2020 by shabbadoo

[Angel of Solitude]

The different Black Library stories also confirm that the Dark Angels viewed the Primaris as an expendable first attack force. On this basis, I could see there being one, maybe two Primaris Company Masters in charge of reserve companies. These reserve companies would then be deployed in advance of the main offensive by one of the regular battle companies - headed up by inner circle company masters.

 

As we have seen, many of these reserve Primaris squads have committed themselves surprisingly well, and in rare cases securing elevation to the Raven/Deathwing.

[Bryan Blaire]

Meh, I don't view the game rule entries as speaking to the fluff much or well, especially when it comes to Dark Angels over the years or just in general by GW lately, especially for Primaris inclusion. I can't see the Dark Angels letting any Primaris they didn't create/specifically choose to elevate being allowed to retain a rank of "Company Master" upon arrival, even if that Marine may have had the skills and abilities. It just doesn't jive with their fluff enough IMO - part of the reason I haven't bothered to start any Primaris Unforgiven.

 

Lieutenant we actually saw in some fluff outside of the Codex - I was wondering if there was anything outside the Codex that actually showed a Primaris Company Master upon arrival or before Lazarus was discussed.

[Master Sheol]

We must alawys consider the "Circle within Circle" when we think about the DA organisation

I don't think Azrael would let a primaris master that was not part of the DW before to lead even the reserve or 10th companies

DA starts as scouts (with primaris we have to see how it works cause it doesn't seems to be primaris scouts and the Phobos units cover that role) and then they start to climb the ranks from reserve companies to inner circle when they prove they can bear more revelations about the true history of the Legion

So from reserve company to battle company then to comapny veteran status and then if they prove good enough they can be inducted in the RW or directly into DW and dont forget that the BK of the RW are also being tested to be inducted into DW as well

When a DA finally reaches the DW he can climb the ranks furthermore to become DWK (and other higher roles like DW ancient or DW champion) and inside the DWK there are the DWK Masters that are Masters in training

From these DWK masters the Inner circle draws new masters to assign to the various companies (yes according to the fluff appaers that Sammael was just Brother Sammael when he was chosen to replaced Gideon as the RW master but the codex says anything about Sammael previous ranks in the Chapter so i am not able to tell if it is an error here or a deliberate choice)

Now as we know NO primaris is recorded as member of the DWK but just memebrs of the DW so there is no DW primaris in trainign to become a Company Master

from this we can deduct that the only Primaris Masters in the Unforgiven are like Lazarus those who crossed the Rubicon

 

And about the Inner circle and Msters not having this rule (they can get it through a stratagem) i think it's true from a fluff poin ot view as not all the masters are part of the Inner Circle cause only the most seniors officers are like Sammael and Belial (and this leads to the problem about Sammael that NO WAY he jumped from simple "brother" rank to Master of the RW and pat of the Inner Circle so there must be omissions or errors by the writers of the fluff, If it's something from the pen of Thorpe it's for sure something related to him being totally bad at write something decent -codex or novel-) but wrong as rules point of view as the Inner circle rule denotes instead a member of the DW so all Master should have this trule by default

In fact as members of the DW all Company masters had that in the previous iterations of the Codex

 

And i agree that the MKX armour is modular and so any Primaris Master is trained to use any variant of it (tacticus, phobos and gravis) but this leads to the silly thing that if a master is trained to use all the weapons and armour variants of the MKX loadout why te hell he cannot mix and match the various equipments? But this is only about the current marketing of GW so there is nothing we can do about this

 

So IMHO if there is a Primaris Master in Phobos armour leading the 10th company it must be one that crossed the Rubicon as lazarus did first

 

my2cents

[Bryan Blaire]

The whole Primaris integration has been very poorly handled for all Chapters that aren’t specifically Codex-adherent 100%.

 

The weird thing about the Inner Circle now is that it appears that Black Knights can be part of it, per the Codex. Pg 16: “Known only to their Grand Master, and to those carefully selected Inner Circle members of the Black Knight elite,”

 

So it’s not just circles within circles, but circles within Venn diagrams within Venn diagrams within circles or something. The Inner Circle is now the outer circle, and per the Codex, pg 17 “Those who enter the Deathwing ... have merely entered the first ring of the clandestine organization known as the Inner Circle.”

[shabbadoo]

The whole Primaris integration has been very poorly handled for all Chapters that aren’t specifically Codex-adherent 100%.

I think that is mainly due to the Primaris units being cookie cutter units. There are no Chapter-specific Primaris units, which are the units that really define non-Codex Chapters. And while the Chapter-specific accessory packs are really a great thing, they don't meet the standard, and so we are (currently) left with little more than Green Force, Blue Force, Red Force, Gray Force, Yellow Force, etc.

 

Master Sheol hits the mark with the "Circles within Circles" bit.

 

In light of Gederas' info (from the Shadowspear book perhaps?) that some 100 Vanguard marines are attached to the 10th, I'd put the Phobos Master attached there. He'll probably be there anyways when GW bins the Scout units altogether (which I really think they will).

Edited April 27, 2020 by shabbadoo

[Iron Lord]

Given that all chapters given Primaris Marines, were also given the techniques to create new Primaris Marines, I can believe that in the century-plus since the  Dark Angels got them, some neophyte Primaris Marines inducted shortly after the Dark Angels first got those techniques, have risen  to Company Master.

 

So it's plausible for "Non-Martian Primaris Masters" to be out there.

 

DA starts as scouts (with primaris we have to see how it works cause it doesn't seems to be primaris scouts 

 

Going by the description in Codex Space Marines, of a future Primaris fighting on campaign before he's gotten his Black Carapace, the rules for regular Scouts, cover Primaris Scouts as well.

 

 

That’s a good catch about Xerophus. Also, in Lazarus’s lore entry, it states that he was the first (and so perhaps not the only) Primaris member of the Inner Circle. So I’m now much happier having a Primaris Master in charge of the 9th 

 

I'm guessing Lazarus's "first Primaris in the Inner Circle" distinction comes with the "except Librarians" caveat, since Primaris Librarians have the Deathwing Keyword and the "Inner Circle" rule.

 

 

Additionally, I need to point out the “Every Master is Deathwing” thing again. Within the codex, even Firstborn Masters not in Terminator Armour do not automatically have the Deathwing keyword, and previous editions of our codex and books have also pointed out not every Master is inducted into the Inner Circle (I believe the 3rd or possibly 4th edition codex has it. Yes, Deathwing Knights are described often as being a kind of reserve of “Masters in Waiting”, but again nothing explicitly says that is the sole route to Company leadership or outright bars non-Deathwing Masters.

To quote from the most recent codex:

“Typically such men served in the Deathwing, where they further distinguished themselves, although with the arrival of reinforcements from the Ultima Founding, promotions to Company Master without membership of the Inner Circle is far less rare than of old” (Codex:Dark Angels 8th edition, page 34)

The 6e and 7e codex (the 6e one introducing Deathwing Knights) had a very strong "All Company Masters are ex-Deathwing Knights" theme. In the 4e one, Company Masters came with "Inner Circle" by default.

 

Interestingly, in the Index Imperium I version of Dark Angels, all Captains, including Primaris Captains (Captain in Gravis Armour, back then), gained the Deathwing keyword.

 

8e's "Not every Company Master is in the Inner Circle" theme is, to be fair, very much a retcon. Though I'd agree that "much less rare than of old"  implies that Company Masters not in the Inner Circle existed, even if previous codexes didn't have rules for them.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Iron Lord