Baseless speculation - next wave of Primaris

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

 

I’m not a huge fan of them leaking/revealing stuff that’s either a really long way off or where they won’t tell us when it’s going to be available. Whatever the next reveals (Primaris or otherwise) are, I hope they hold off until they can say “here’s this new cool thing and you can order it next week/month!”

I hope they don't do that!

 

Nothing's worse than the GW usual of "hide everything forever and leave fans in limbo if their models will ever get updates".

But whether you know it’s getting updated or not makes no difference, if you like it you’ll still buy it and if they’re planning the release in May 2021, for example, you’ve still got exactly the same amount of time to wait whether you know it’s coming or not. My way just saves months of agonising wait.

 

There’s also the fatigue element, when they announce something really far out your initial enthusiasm wanes, especially if they don’t tell you when it will be available. Same thing happened with Shadowspear, when they announced it I was really excited but by the time you could finally order it I’d lost interest.

Your argument comes right around to bite you. If you like the models you'll buy them anyway and fatigue shouldn't be an issue at all. The point is knowing that something is coming makes it easier to plan your army. Not everyone is an impulse buyer that just follows the hype and not everyone has the kind of money needed even if they would fall into that category.

 

So I'm more in Lucerne's camp. I'd like them to be more open with what's coming for us, ideally with a rough schedule. The last thing I want is them trying to surprise us every month.

Don’t get me wrong, my absolute preference would be a fully mapped out schedule for the next year WITH release dates.

 

But if the choice is either: “you’ll get this cool thing at some indeterminate point in the future” (which is what we often get) or “here’s a surprise release you can order next week” then I’ll take option 2 any time.

 

It’s just their utter vagueness and refusal to give time frames when they reveal stuff that is so annoying. Take the space marine supplements, when they came out there was absolutely no reason why they couldn’t have said “these are the first two and the next two are scheduled for X and the others are scheduled for Y”. Instead they left us in the dark about when to expect them.

 

On the other hand you had the recent Forgeworld releases of the sabre tank and the bombard. They came out of the blue and were ready for order pretty much right away. It was a great surprise. I’d take that any day over reveals with no dates.

[Guest Triszin]

im honestly expecting the primaris bikes to either be bolt rifle or melta based, with no cqc option

[Dark Shepherd]

Apologies if this is deviating too far off the bikes but GWs share price went from about £79 pre Covid to £42 at the bottom of the slump, has been rising for the past 3 weeks and is almost at £50 again. As with before they are massively outperforming most retailers. Shows investors see them as still a good buy, I think.

 

What Im drawing from that is theyre less likely to panic/rush things, but jeepers theyll be hyping up what they do release upon their return

[Red_Shift]

I am hoping for melee primaris and terminators. I'm not sure that their will be too much of a delay in the release schedule. I can't believe that the majority of people were buying all of the releases anyway, too much of an investment! Releasing a few things at once might result in a bump in sales. The only thing I am slightly worried about is how gw source their paints/glues etc. I have very quickly run out of spray paint!

[redshadow]

Gw could put the 4th wave of primaris in the new 8.5/9 box next summer and still give us the 3rd wave to buy in the fall and over Christmas to boost sales, the fast attack slot needs fleshing out

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Gw could put the 4th wave of primaris in the new 8.5/9 box next summer and still give us the 3rd wave to buy in the fall and over Christmas to boost sales, the fast attack slot needs fleshing out

 

That would probably mean, at the least, completely re-doing the campaign book for the Marines in that box and possibly for the opposing force as well, since it's probably a Shadowspear situation where the matchup is fully reflected in the mini-codexes in the books. Beyond the headache of all the work to redo that, the 4th wave models may just be a bad fit for that matchup, so they could end up having to redo the other side's models as well. That would particularly be a problem if they never intended any new models for that faction other than what is supposed to be in the starter box originally planned for this summer.

 

Think of all of the artwork, already commissioned and paid for, that would depict the 3rd wave models in particular situations that would not be easily reallocated to new books. They'd just have to take a loss on all of that and possibly early artwork already done for whatever Shadowspear-type box they had planned for 2021 to introduce the 4th-wave models (since again, they'd likely be facing off against a different faction in the redone boxed set).

 

Plus you'd have all of those monopose models that were originally planned to introduce the third wave now consigned to landing with a thud at best in a Start Collecting Outrider (or whatever) Marines box well after the multi-part kits came out. And more than likely, if this new boxed set is intended to take the place of Dark Imperium, GW doesn't even have plans for such a Start Collecting box and the breakup of the models might not be conducive to it.

 

And let's not forget that there may be Black Library novels in the works - maybe even the third book in the Dark Imperium trilogy - that directly reflect events in the originally-planned boxed set. One of the protagonists of the first DI novel was essentially the Captain in Gravis Armor from the boxed set, a model that wasn't planned to be in the ensuing MPK wave (and still isn't available individually). So not only might GW have to hold that book back another year, but now they might have to have some rewrites just to avoid references to models that now don't have a release planned. This is the kind of snowball effect you have when you pull a tentpole product out of a carefully-planned release schedule.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to what you're suggesting, I just don't think GW would go for it as it really would require a lot of rework for the result of a much lower return on investment for what they've already spent. Given the choice, just pushing the whole Primaris schedule back a full year (along with the edition change) may be the better option. But like I said before, I hope I'm wrong. And if the quarantine ends soon enough, they may be content to still release everything this year on a compressed schedule.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Lord Nord

[Felix Antipodes]

Frankly, I hope they take the time provided by current events to sit back and take a long hard look at where they are and where they want to get to with Primaris, because I'm not getting any sense of a strategy so far. I'm sure there is one, I just don't the pattern so far.

 

Assault troops need to come soon, hopefully along with the rumoured bikes/speeders. Time for another armour variant?

[Lord_Caerolion]

We've already got the Suppressors in their Gravis/Phobos mix, maybe the Primaris equivalent of Assault Marines in a Tacticus/Gravis mix?

 

EDIT: My absolute baseless wishlisting here would be maybe with Primaris-style jump packs, and chainswords/hand-flamers. Ooh, or Aggressor-style wrist-flamers, and a chainsword in each hand.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Primaris bikers is my main want atm, after that, I say Primaris Melee next, let's say around October, going non jump assault, I want them grounded, give me shields :D

[Dark Shepherd]

For assault options on the bikes and in general, please something better than s4 ap0

 

Heavy combat knives, heavy chainswords, its easily doable

[MARK0SIAN]

Frankly, I hope they take the time provided by current events to sit back and take a long hard look at where they are and where they want to get to with Primaris, because I'm not getting any sense of a strategy so far. I'm sure there is one, I just don't the pattern so far.

That would be great but I wouldn’t hold my breath. Remember, everything you’ll see now and for the next 2 years is already in development. Anything they come up with now won’t have an impact until 2022 at the earliest. Unless they get really dramatic and scrap/radically alter stuff that’s already underway.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I guess I'll go ahead and chime in before the preview tomorrow, even though I'm not betting on them showing anything from the next wave. Would love to be wrong, though.

 

Like I said a couple months ago, I think the Outrider term from Fist of the Imperium was a reference to this year's wave and not simply the bikes, which of course would mean next year we'd see the Spearhead wave and the heavy hitters.

 

I also suggested that alongside the bikes, we would see those Breacher-types from the Iron Hands supplement. As with the Suppressors last year, they don't quite fit the theme but can be BS'd in by rationalizing that while they're not Assault or Fast Attack units per se, they can be sped INTO battle via an Impulsor or maybe a transport variation of the new speeders.

 

And finally we'd have the assault version of the Omnis-pattern Marines. Ideally I'd like to see both melee and mid-range loadouts available. People suggested a long time ago that the MPK version of this unit might also give us an option to build them as Suppressors, which makes a lot of sense. I don't see them giving Suppressors much in the way of customization - maybe a second main weapon option at best - so allowing one kit to build any Omnis-pattern squad sounds reasonable.

 

And for ease of reference, I'm going to refer to the assault version of the Omnis guys as "OPPRESSORS." Pretty sure that won't be the actual GW-approved moniker.

 

Character-wise, I'm sure we'd see both Captain and Lieutenant models in Omnis gear, along with maybe a Chaplain. As much as I'd like to see GW come up with a new psychic discipline for every armor pattern, I'm not betting on it. So I'm going with flying Chaplain rather than another Librarian.

 

I also think of the two character types we haven't seen yet (non-crew Techmarine and Champion), the Champion would make the most sense to show up this year. I know everyone wants to see a Primaris Techmarine that's not stuck in a turret but thematically GW would probably rather debut those alongside the Spearhead wave and in the meantime they can rationalize that the basic precursor Techmarine can handle the duty.

 

For similar reasons, I don't think we'll see any new flyers this year. IF we get one, it'd likely be the transport (something I'm sure would make everyone happy). But Gunship and Interceptor models... again, even if GW has any plans for Primaris versions of those, they'd figure the existing Stormhawk and Stormtalon will fill the role for now.

 

In that original post about the Outriders, I predicted we'd see two Lieutenant sculpts this year, with a Breacheresque model showing up alongside an Omnis flight-stand dude. Even with the bikes coming out, I have a suspicion that GW might not go that route with characters again. Would be very happy to be wrong, though...

 

So if that's what's coming this year, how would the Primaris half of the rumored box set look? Because BEFORE we would see any of these multi-part kits, it seems like a strong possibility that GW would go ahead and refresh that starter set, especially if they're dropping an updated edition of the game. And Psychic Awakening sure seems like it was meant to "clean house" before moving things forward.

 

So... what's in the box?

 

Well, it's a fair bet that they'd design the set along the same lines as both Dark Imperium and Shadowspear. Specifically, both of those sets had three character units (yes, the two LTs in DI could be fielded as one unit) along with three squads, one each of Troop, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support. So I think they'll do something similar this year.

 

Characters? Another Captain and Lieutenant, obviously. One of them would be an Omnis dude, the other would probably be kitted up to hang with the Breachers. As for the third - obvious answer there is the Champion, set up as the counterpart of the Ancient from Dark Imperium. Though now that I'm on record, they'll inevitably do something else.

 

Squads would then most likely be a ten-man monopose unit of Breachers (Troop) and a three-man unit of Oppressors (Fast Attack).

 

But what would fill the Heavy Support slot? The bikes would most likely still be Fast Attack, so they're out. An interesting possibility is the Hellfuries from the Ultramarines supplement, but that would give us two squads that don't really fit the "Assault" theme... unless they do. It's not like we've been given any reason to think the Hellfuries COULDN'T be rapid-response units. But the fact that they seem to be the "graduate-level" squad in the Devastator company suggests to me that they're more shooty and less scrambly. So we can probably look for them in 2021, but not this year.

 

So instead I'm going to go out on a limb and figure on them doing a Venomcrawler move - ONE unit filling the Heavy Support slot (yeah, I know Shadowspear also had Obliterators but work with me here). And I think that unit IS going to feature a Techmarine, but it will be an integrated gunner model rather than a separate sculpt. What we'll get is a self-propelled weapons plaform with a Techmarine gunner/driver. Basically think the Primaris equivalent of an Onager Dunecrawler. But with Repulsor plates. So a quick to get around Heavy Support unit, with the possibility of there still being a proper "Big Boom" version of the Thunderfire Cannon in 2021 (debuting alongside the first distinct general-purpose Primaris Techmarine).

 

All right, I'll shut up now.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Lord Nord

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Well, looks like my last post managed to kill this discussion. Or I just happened to catch the last wave as the topic was circling the drain once everyone who felt like giving their predictions had already had their say.

 

Whatever the case, I figured I would do a solid for any historians in the far future tasked with doing an in-depth study on customer perceptions of the Primaris phenomenon and amend my predictions above. There's always the chance that someone in the year 2020 might find it interesting as well, but that's a risk I'll just have to take.

 

I had a realization after my previous post - somehow I had completely managed to forget about the fact that we've already seen a melee Jump Pack Primaris model. Or at least "half-melee" as the model in question also has a ranged weapon (well, a pistol anyway). And this model isn't wearing Omnis-pattern armor. He's wearing Phobos armor, or a variation of it (while the datasheet does include the PHOBOS keyword, I'm mindful of the fact that Jes Goodwin considers "Inceptor Armor" to be its own thing even while their datasheet carries the MK X GRAVIS keyword).

 

Yes, I am talking about our quiet boi, the master of shadows, the guy who'd actually take it as a point of pride that I completely overlooked his existence when prognosticating about future Primaris releases... let's hear it for our own Emo-Batman, Kayvaan Shrike!

 

 

So what are the odds that GW made up a Phobos-variant Jump Pack kit and ONLY intended to use it for Shrike or for some RG-specific squad in the future? I am saying those odds are quite low. And so I am going to have to amend my previous predictions... 

 

I still think there will be an "Oppressor" squad showing up in Omnis armor, with their eventual MPK box also featuring multi-build functionality with a Suppressor squad option. BUT I no longer think those Oppressors will have a choice of ranged and melee loadouts. I now think instead that the Oppressors will be strictly ranged (with maybe a melee option for the sergeant), but the actual flying melee squad will be a Shrike-pattern group kitted out much like the above model. I'm thinking the foot claws are probably not going to show up, remaining a Shrike exclusive, but lightning claws could be standard or one of a couple options. And they'll probably still have a pistol in their kits just like Shrike or the Reivers.

 

If I'm anywhere close to the target on my previous breakdown the new box set, then I would NOT expect these guys to turn up there. The "Breachers" would be a melee-focused squad and I can't see GW putting out a box with two different Primaris melee squads in it. Nah, more likely they would have the Oppressors turn up there and then do a double surprise when the MPK packages start rolling out: not only does the Oppressor MPK box come with a Suppressor option, but there will be a completely-unhinted box launching alongside it with the long-awaited melee-focused jumpy dudes.

 

I have to say maybe part of why I didn't think about this is that I thought we were well and truly done with the Phobos kits (minus the odd character model showing up). The only thing I had been holding out as a possibility was that they might have a "Scout Repulsor Bike" squad worked up but didn't want to release a bike for the scout guys before the main Tacticus guys got theirs. And they might have seen it as just overkill to have that many kits of one armor pattern in one year. But when we saw that leaked image with the old wheeled bike design, I figured the odds of a Phobos version of THAT were slim. And somehow in the midst of all that, the fact that Shrike was wearing a Phobos-armor variant with jump capability slid completely off my radar.

 

So that's my amended prediction: we get one more Phobos-pattern variant and a total of two new jumpy-dude squads this year.

[Dark Shepherd]

My guesses are Shrike got a jump pack because he had to have one to keep everyone happy/he always had one

 

Assault Primaris will be Inceptor based, and hopefully keep crushing charge

[Ishagu]

@Volt

 

The design philosophy behind Primaris is the best thing about them. They are a faction designed for a tabletop wargame, not one designed for a skirmish game narrated by a GM.

 

As for the next wave, we know bikers and a new speeder type vehicle are coming.

 

I hope the Impunator is real, the name is kinda funny/cool. A Repulsor with indirect fire weapons and an Invul save.

 

I also expect we'll see a standalone Gravis HQ release. Maybe a model that can be assembled as a Captain or Techmarine. Beyond that a dedicated cc unit would be interesting.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Ishagu

[Volt]

My guesses are Shrike got a jump pack because he had to have one to keep everyone happy/he always had one

 

Assault Primaris will be Inceptor based, and hopefully keep crushing charge

Man, Inceptor Assault Marines with something like eviscerators or power fists and special weapons like plasma blasters would be amazing, sign me the hell up for that.

 

 

@Volt

 

The design philosophy behind Primaris is the best thing about them. They are a faction designed for a tabletop wargame, not one designed for a skirmish game narrated by a GM.

 

Designing units based on the game itself is a terrible idea and leads to a gameified universe that looks like nonsense and not a living universe. Warhammer is good because it tries to emulate some degree of a functional setting where military units roughly make sense in squad structure and purpose, with races that upend this doctrine being unique specifically in their very rigid combat doctrine being a subset of this culture. Adopting this for all factions makes zero sense and completely degrades the lore. If units that only have one special weapon and one heavy weapon suck, that means the game needs to change, not turning everything into Eldar.

[Bryan Blaire]

Given Jes Goodwin's self-admitted lack of playing 40K in the VoxCast segments and his being the primary factor behind the design of Primaris, that pretty much discounts Primaris as being "designed for a table top game" in any way other than models for a table top game.

 

Primaris started out as a re-scaling of Marines, per Jes, they became a new type of Marine because GW didn't want to just invalidate people's armies they'd already built up.

 

The rules for Primaris may be very table-top friendly, but the models weren't specifically designed for those rules. It's the other way around.

 

If they are doing bikes again, I REALLY, REALLY hope there's something actually new about them, and they aren't just embiggened bikes that we already have. GW has given their designers some new design space, I really hope they actually took it and we can get some equally new and interesting rules from it as well.

[Dark Shepherd]

Hit and run rules for bikes?

MW ruleor crushing charge to signify running over people?

 

Stuff like that could be fun

[Sete]

Primaris bikers is my main want atm, after that, I say Primaris Melee next, let's say around October, going non jump assault, I want them grounded, give me shields :D

I would love some greatsword, but If I have an option for BP/Chainsword, fine by me.

 

Need to buy an Impulsor or 2 tho.

[Dracos]

My guesses are Shrike got a jump pack because he had to have one to keep everyone happy/he always had one

 

 

I'm not saying your wrong necessarily, but for that to make sense, Khan should have been on a Primaris bike. I'm all about Corax and Sons but I'd easily have foregone Shrike (for Lias) if it could have meant Khan (and rest of Primaris of course ) got a bike.

 

 

 

Primaris bikers is my main want atm, after that, I say Primaris Melee next, let's say around October, going non jump assault, I want them grounded, give me shields 

I would love some greatsword, but If I have an option for BP/Chainsword, fine by me.

 

Need to buy an Impulsor or 2 tho.

 

 

I had such hopes when the Impulsor came out and its definitely better than the Repulsor as a dedicated Transport, but . . . I have a real issue with it's capacity to only carry 6 Primaris models, none of which can be Gravis. They were so close, but missed the mark in worst ay possible for me. If I'm using a CP or a transport on less than a squad that is as big as possible there has to be a darn good reason for it. I'm usually not so skeptical but I honestly think they did it to force customers to buy two models instead of one.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Dracos

[Volt]

Given Jes Goodwin's self-admitted lack of playing 40K in the VoxCast segments and his being the primary factor behind the design of Primaris, that pretty much discounts Primaris as being "designed for a table top game" in any way other than models for a table top game.

 

Primaris started out as a re-scaling of Marines, per Jes, they became a new type of Marine because GW didn't want to just invalidate people's armies they'd already built up.

 

The rules for Primaris may be very table-top friendly, but the models weren't specifically designed for those rules. It's the other way around.

 

If they are doing bikes again, I REALLY, REALLY hope there's something actually new about them, and they aren't just embiggened bikes that we already have. GW has given their designers some new design space, I really hope they actually took it and we can get some equally new and interesting rules from it as well.

Personally I just would like them to drop the bike thing entirely in favor of Visions of Heresy style jetbikes. It not only makes more sense (Brother-Captain, are you sure it is wise to deploy a bike company on a mountain?) but would justify them packing some more serious firepower, such as hull mounted multi-meltas.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

 

My guesses are Shrike got a jump pack because he had to have one to keep everyone happy/he always had one

 

 

I'm not saying your wrong necessarily, but for that to make sense, Khan should have been on a Primaris bike. I'm all about Corax and Sons but I'd easily have foregone Shrike (for Lias) if it could have meant Khan (and rest of Primaris of course ) got a bike.

 

 

 

 

Hmmm

You could be right. Unless they thought weve done fins/jump packs already but Khan will be out before bikes or we want to do Khan/Scars well before bikes let alone chapter specific primaris units or even bikes. Maybe they reimagined Khan too hard :)

Was kinda crazy he wasnt on a bike

[Noserenda]

I mean the last Khan model wasnt on a bike either? Though i suspect that has more to do with the White Scars coming out considerably before the next wave of Bike Primaris. 

I personally dont like the Idea of melee Inceptors, i get the Impression that their armour isnt very flexible due to its orbital drop capabilities, thus the heavy pistol type loadout and zooming around shooting. The Supressor (With bigger pack) or Shrike variants would be better if they had to fly. Big tanky Gravis suits with teched up Poleaxes and greatswords would be my main preference tbh, armour built to take a hit while the marine delivers a killing strike

Edited April 24, 2020 by Noserenda

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I mean the last Khan model wasnt on a bike either? Though i suspect that has more to do with the White Scars coming out considerably before the next wave of Bike Primaris. 

 

I personally dont like the Idea of melee Inceptors, i get the Impression that their armour isnt very flexible due to its orbital drop capabilities, thus the heavy pistol type loadout and zooming around shooting. The Supressor (With bigger pack) or Shrike variants would be better if they had to fly though big tanky Gravis suits with teched up Poleaxes and greatswords would be my main preference tbh, armour built to take a hit while the marine delivers a killing strike

 

One factor possibly weighing against ever seeing melee dudes in Inceptor-style armor is that Inceptors are apparently meant to burn through most of their fuel in re-entry. That's according to the Dark Imperium novel, but it seems like a design cue straight from Jes and not something the writer came up with (it's not a huge plot point and could have easily been left out - it'd be weird for a novel writer to come up with a restriction on a unit like that out of whole cloth considering its lack of impact on the story).

 

If so, even though it's a restriction that wouldn't mean anything rules-wise (Inceptors can fly around through an entire game of 40K even though they should theoretically be almost down to fumes in round one), it could still mean that Jes wouldn't design a unit that was dependent on actually having sufficient fuel to jump into melee fights repeatedly after re-entry.

 

Also, I just see a jump-enabled melee unit as having a lot more need for maneuverability than Inceptor-style armor would really allow. Not every melee fight is best served by bulling straight toward an enemy jousting-style (for THAT, heavier armor would excel). Melee fights are at least as much about avoiding your opponent's strikes as landing your own and heavy armor wouldn't help with either. Yes, they'd increase the POWER of whatever strikes you did manage to land, but you'd be landing them less frequently. It's really more of an issue for an airborne fight than a grounded one as the grounded opponent can't dodge in as many directions or circle behind you as easily. Plus defensive shoulder-to-shoulder lines are more effective, easier to establish, and easier to maintain on the ground.

 

If not a Phobos variant like Shrike's kit, I'd see melee jump dudes at least not getting into a heavier armor than Omnis-pattern.

 

But we'll see soon. Hopefully this year.

[Sete]

Melee on Taticus all I want. You guys can have whatever after.